I will say this, if I was to start someone off with a MA(s), someone with no prior MA experience, it would be Judo for grappling and MT for striking.
They are both simple to learn, effective for virtually everyone and are directly applicable to “self protection” very quickly.
Kung fu would not be a good first choice for an absolute beginner, neither with BJJ.
Why?
Both are/tend to be overly specialized.
kung fu SHOULD be easy to learn. chambered punching is just brawling and gives u enuf power as a beginner to hurt people. things are convoluted today, people give multiple complex useless applications to simple techniques. i think stuff are harder to learn for no reason and benefit.
[QUOTE=Ray Pina;906823]
You are right about non-BJJ schools incorporating the stuff and I have mixed feelings about it. On one hand, kudos to them for trying to expand their knowledge. On the other hand, all too often one doesn’t know what they don’t know.
We recently had a big tournament down here and it was night and day between the straight BJJ schools and the karate/BJJ schools. None of them placed. They were generally thrown and submitted for the same reasons I stated… they were overwhelmed, unable to escape positions. So they exhausted themselves struggling and easy to submit.
[/QUOTE]
exactly. there is a difference between going to a school which does nothing but grappling, and going to a scholl where it is “part of the curriculum.”
Doesn’t matter if the grappling is BJJ, Greco-Roman, whatever. The fact that it is being totally focused on, and the person is training these skills in isolation.
Total emersion, vs bits n bobs. The end reults will always favor the person who trained thoroughly.
it is simple math. Hours training equals skill developed.
I haven’t had my coffee yet this morning so that may contribute, but I am not sure what we are arguing about here at all?
I just spent this whole weekend doing our annual training camp. That means we had me and Ian Morgan (San Da), Carmine Zocchi (BJJ), Jeremy Bellrose (Muay Thai) and George Pardos (wrestling) all in the same room for like 15 hours showing people technique from a variety of sources.
A lot of times, in my experience, when you do stuff like this what comes out is how “the same” most of the stuff is… ie it either works or it doesn’t.
The exceptions, and this is why the MMA approach so appeals to me, is that when you mix and strip away the restrictions of certain contexts, you find MORE. When you are no longer looking through the exclusive glasses on ONE METHOD you see more options, more technique, more everything
Of course, you could argue this used to be the norm in TCMA, the long hand guy vs the short hand guy, the internal vs the external, the shuai jiao guy vs the striker
YOU SHOULD NOTE THAT IN THESE STORIES BOTH SIDES USUALLY LEARNED SOMETHING AND BENEFITED
[QUOTE=TenTigers;906783]"
The fact is, most people have not really gotten far enough into their style to make an educated assessment. Certainly not you. You have DABBLED in a little bit of Gung-Fu. Sure, you picked up some cool stuff and some skills, But you never stayed long enough or trained contnuously enough to really understand TCMA.[/QUOTE]
The fact is that Ray’s kung fu skills were better and more real than 99.9% of all other kung fu guys out there.
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;906869]The fact is that Ray’s kung fu skills were better and more real than 99.9 of all other kung fu guys out there.[/QUOTE]
I will agree, with one caveat:
Ray is a fighter. Anyone who fights will have better fighting skills than those who don’t.
I wouldn’t say he has better Kung-Fu skills, because his fights-those that he showed, did not show Kung-Fu structure or technique. I am not talking about posing, but basic structural alignments that should be developed after years of training. His fights showed him up on his toes, all upper body, none of the sheilding he spoke of, and none of the techniques, but alot of wild swinging and punching.
**** effective too. No doubt. The kid can fight, and is strong and tough.
But it ain’t Kung-Fu.
but..
I would bet that Ray’s BJJ technique shows all the proper structures and alignments a good BJJ practitioner should posess.
[QUOTE=TenTigers;906872]
I wouldn’t say he has better Kung-Fu skills, because his fights-those that he showed, did not show Kung-Fu structure or technique. I am not talking about posing, but basic structural alignments that should be developed after years of training. His fights showed him up on his toes, all upper body, none of the sheilding he spoke of, and none of the techniques, but alot of wild swinging and punching.[/QUOTE]
Could you please post a link to someone who is fighting showing that structure and technique.
[QUOTE=MasterKiller;906826]Really, this is not a BJJ vs Kung Fu argument. It’s a BJJ vs Striking argument.
If a BJJ player double-legs a Muay Thai fighter, he’s going to have the same issues.
If you have Shuai and Na, your kung fu SHOULD be better able to deal with BJJ than more ‘pure’ striking arts. We all know most CMA places don’t train with the same intensity as sport clubs, which is usually why they get stomped in competition.[/QUOTE]
I was thinking about this last night…why do you never see ground game in cma but they have all of the wrist and neck locks in standup chinna…it’s easier to break the guys wrist when he’s on his back than when he is upright as he will dance with you…you gotta kick his knees out to apply the chinna…on the ground you have to lock in place before he an roll, standing he can twist and run…
why didn’t cma guys have 100 years of history creating the ground fighting fad instead of the brazilians…why didn’t the japanese have the ground game owned like the brazilians do to this day? maybe tma is society based they expect attackers with knives and maybe bjj is sports based…is there history of bjj masters 50 years ago taking any challlenger with weapons?.
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;906915]Could you please post a link to someone who is fighting showing that structure and technique.[/QUOTE]
it’s not full contact but this shows the kung fu keep charging his center principle, i like this dude is bigger than him but he keeps ***** smacking him out of the cricle and dude has to pull up his pants 
[QUOTE=diego;906922]I was thinking about this last night…why do you never see ground game in cma but they have all of the wrist and neck locks in standup chinna…it’s easier to break the guys wrist when he’s on his back than when he is upright as he will dance with you…you gotta kick his knees out to apply the chinna…on the ground you have to lock in place before he an roll, standing he can twist and run…
why didn’t cma guys have 100 years of history creating the ground fighting fad instead of the brazilians…why didn’t the japanese have the ground game owned like the brazilians do to this day? maybe tma is society based they expect attackers with knives and maybe bjj is sports based…is there history of bjj masters 50 years ago taking any challlenger with weapons?.[/QUOTE]
There is no history of CMA masters taking on any challengers with weapons.
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;906924]There is no history of CMA masters taking on any challengers with weapons.[/QUOTE]
well…yes there is, but it didn’t work to well so it never got passed down in the oral traditions.
having said that, there are cultural barriers to rolling around like animals that some communities just can’t get passed and because of that, they lack in particular areas of tactical development.
having said that, in this day and age, if you put a few adepts in a room, they will all walk away with something that each has learned from each other…but I think ross more or less already pointed that out.
thing is, as soon as you say yours is where it’s at, it’s not anymore.
keep emptying your cup, don’t pour it out, drink it!
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;906924]There is no history of CMA masters taking on any challengers with weapons.[/QUOTE]
you’ve read all of the ching and ming manuscripts?
japanese have samurai tradition all comers disappeared while those left worked for the emperor and from this they formed empty hand jj and then streamlined it to judo going into the sport aspect of ma as the emperor banned swords and guns were becoming rampant…
tma cma and jma is gentleman’s culture bjj is a bunch of ghetto dudes getting paid knocking out tma’s until the ufc started blending muay thai…
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;906915]Could you please post a link to someone who is fighting showing that structure and technique.[/QUOTE]
Explain what you are asking, and why.
[QUOTE=diego;906923]it’s not full contact but this shows the kung fu keep charging his center principle, i like this dude is bigger than him but he keeps ***** smacking him out of the cricle and dude has to pull up his pants :)[/QUOTE]
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=XFJUwCqHUE8
forgot the link lol
This post is very funny. It’s like you go to China and tell those Chinese “Why American is more civilized than Chinese”.
You can go to a boxing gym and tell those boxers “How important the Judo is”. You can also go to a Judo clue and tell those Judo Guys “How important the boxing is”.
[QUOTE=MasterKiller;906826]
If you have Shuai and Na, your kung fu SHOULD be better able to deal with BJJ than more ‘pure’ striking arts.[/QUOTE]
In principle I’d have to agree with that. Though boxers and kick boxers train it as well without training it per se. Just like they don’t go on and on for hours about mechanics and just tell you to drop the knee and twist the waist to put the body into the punch.
[QUOTE=bawang;906835] u dont need to put down and insult kung fu. i put work and efort into my kung fu.[/QUOTE]
I appreciate your post.
Please understand, this was not posted as a criticism. I have gained from training Kung Fu. This was a post about time, economy and return on investment.
[QUOTE=SavvySavage;906837] You mentioned in the past that kung fu people are using the reputations of past masters to show the effectiveness of their systems. [/QUOTE]
Sort of… closer to my feelings is that white, well-to-do folks studied with the Chinese who were available in NYC and were a) fooled into the superiority of Southern Styles, when they are not held in high regard in China itself and B) either turned a blind eye after years of study when they realized they can not match western boxers or realized they could also profit from selling such fantasy. Many actually believe what they are selling though… that little Johnny can be a bad a$$ without actually training and living like one. Three days a week at the kwoon, some horse stance and form work, a little lion dancing. And oh, of course he can always just poke out an eye.
[QUOTE=SavvySavage;906837] You’ve also states that you can’t seem to win a match even with all your BJJ training. If YOU haven’t won using it then how do you know how effective it really is? [/QUOTE]
I’m No. 2 in my league’s weight class right now.
[QUOTE=SavvySavage;906837] Until you start winning consecutively you haven’t proven that what you are studying is any better than what kung fu does.[/QUOTE]
This is a true statement. But I don’t train to prove or disprove any style. I train to be the best martial artists I can be. I pay attention to what everybody else is doing simply as a matter of reconnaissance.
However, my record has nothing to do with the reality of my first statement. Don’t kill the message bearer.
[QUOTE=TenTigers;906839]I think that’s really the issue. Perhaps had you continued to read, you may have understood what was being said.
Let me ask you, how much of the Wing Chun system did you learn? How much time was spent training strictly Wing Chun? What exactly did you get out of it?
How much of SPM did you learn? How much time was spent training strictly SPM?
What exactly did you get out of it?
How much Hsing=Yi, and Yi-Ch’uan did you learn? How much time was spent learning strictly that? What exactly did you get out of it?
Share your experiences.[/QUOTE]
I hate to have to share my past as some sort of justification because it’s a waist of time, I’d rather talk about new, current things. But, AGAIN, I trained Hung Gar and Wing Chun with one group 3 to four days a week for about five years. I trained Souther Mantis with another group for about 3.5 years during the latter part of that five.
Wing Chun was cool. Learned the first three forms and did a lot of chi sau (light contact) which I liked. My sifu taught me a lot of cool traps, etc.
Hung Gar, surprisingly, I did not like. At least the way it was being trained where I studied. Too much form. Too much weapons form. Students too caught up on being seniors based on form. No fighting.
The Southern Mantis was really up my ally with Sifu Mark. Rounds of bag work as warm up. The head gear and full sparring or head gear and full contact chi sau with quick stoppage. This training opened my eyes into proper training. I wish I could train with this group 2 days a week now.
Hsing-I, or, more importantly, my time with Master Chan, was priceless. And it cost me a lot in time, emotions, etc. It wasn’t easy and I’d be lucky if I could say I got 5% of what he was offering.
All these claims aside, I do the best with what I got. I look for what I like or what I feel I need at the time. Truth be told, I think most good fighters are that way from the start, it’s an attitude, a will inside. Now it’s a matter of being a good fighter amongst good fighters. And then maybe one day a great fighter.
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;906869]The fact is that Ray’s kung fu skills were better and more real than 99.9% of all other kung fu guys out there.[/QUOTE]
I haven’t posted video of me knocking anyone around in a while so people forget. I’m into serious fights now so it does me no good to show anything.
Thank you though. And Happy New Year.