why do wing chun practitioners think wing chun is the end all be all!!!

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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[QUOTE=dnovice;923281]
OK. no one said otherwise. What about stand up? I hope you see how ridiculous this argument is. When i stated the above i was being sarcastic hoping you will see the my art is better than yours is silly.
[/quote]

For stand up there are other options.

WC still wouldn’t be my first choice. If I’m close it’s not how I like to fight close. At long range there are much better options. That is, however, me and not an indictment of the entirity of WC.

Now to all, being a martial artist you should know that its not the style but the practioner that fights and wins or loses

This is true. However the problem which arises is the frequency that some within the WC community apparently (according to the thread starter) don’t see this.

And any fighter who believes in firing magical qi balls for the win deserves a thumping.

62

its ridiculous to keep saying “GO TO A BJJ SCHOOL AND U’LL SEE.” come on man.:rolleyes:

you missed the point entirely

when people say “I don’t need ground grappling because I can bite, gouge and head but” THAT IS THE RIDICULOUS STATEMENT

:rolleyes:

63

[QUOTE=lkfmdc;923325]you missed the point entirely

when people say “I don’t need ground grappling because I can bite, gouge and head but” THAT IS THE RIDICULOUS STATEMENT

:rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

Headbutts don’t work from the ground.
Eye Gouging is likewise a low percentage move. When somebody is sitting on your chest you don’t want to be sticking your arms where they can do things to them.
And biting… biting spreads diseases and it’s disgusting… and it’s not likely to do more than really **** off the person you bite.

And then they may disabuse you of the notion that people who bite deserve to have teeth.

64

The real issue is that, in order to gouge, head butt, etc you need CONTROL… who can hit easier, the guy on top or the guy pinned on the bottom (forget about guard for a minute, if you have no jiu jitsu you have no guard)

If you want to gouge my eyes, why can’t I gouge yours? And if I have the control on the ground, whose gouge is going to work

Go back and look at the “san soo vs BJJ” fight. San Soo is on bottom, tries to eye gouge, and sets up the arm lock that gets his arm broken WITHOUT EVEN REALIZING HIS ARM WAS ABOUT TO BE BROKEN

[QUOTE=SimonM;923327]Headbutts don’t work from the ground.
Eye Gouging is likewise a low percentage move. When somebody is sitting on your chest you don’t want to be sticking your arms where they can do things to them.
And biting… biting spreads diseases and it’s disgusting… and it’s not likely to do more than really **** off the person you bite.

And then they may disabuse you of the notion that people who bite deserve to have teeth.[/QUOTE]

65

Exactly. Like I said when you have somebody sitting on you in mount or even inside your guard you don’t want to be extending your arm for them to do unpleasant things to it…

Especially if you don’t know how to fight on the ground.

If you are facing somebody in your guard and you don’t know how to ground fight the risk they will pass your guard and go for mount or cross body is a big enough problem that the distraction of trying to poke distant eyes is not one you want.

If you are facing somebody who has mounted you you are in a bad position even if you DO know how to ground fight. And if you don’t know how to ground fight and somebody had mounted you you can pretty well kiss you ass goodbye.

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[QUOTE=doug maverick;922494]ok im hoping to not start a flame war or anything here, if that happens i will erase this thread. ok for the past five years i’ve studied xing yi chuan, and i freaking love it, its one of the most effective forms of fighting i’ve trained in. it has its drawbacks which alot of my previous training has compensated for but its a good system for me and it works for me. ok now that thats out of the way.

i recently been training in wing chun just to see what is it all about, why so many people swear by it like it was jesus christ or something. and you know what i just dont see it. while it is a practical and effective art. it has tons of weakness’s. and im not talking about ground fighting or any of that. cause in reality the floor is not someplace you want to be at in new york city;). anyway without getting to specific, i just dont see it. yes its a good art but no it is not the grand ultimate martial art. now there are guys on here who are gonna come at me with all sorts of crap, like oh you havent learned enough yet yadda yadda yadda yackity shmackity, just know also i have two friends who are really good sifus in wing chun. and lets just say what i said before, while i see its efectiveness especially in close range combat, there are alot of places where it needs to be compensated where things need to be added to make it more of an effective fighting form. just my opinion.[/QUOTE]
Hi, I teach a class in Columbus Park in Chinatown Sat from 3:30 to 4:30. It would be a pleasure for you stop by and see the approach we use.

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[QUOTE=SimonM;923327]Headbutts don’t work from the ground.
Eye Gouging is likewise a low percentage move. When somebody is sitting on your chest you don’t want to be sticking your arms where they can do things to them.
And biting… biting spreads diseases and it’s disgusting… and it’s not likely to do more than really **** off the person you bite.

And then they may disabuse you of the notion that people who bite deserve to have teeth.[/QUOTE]
I see that you’re in London. I’ll be doing a seminar May 2 in TO. I’ll probably be driving past London on my way to Detroit after the seminar. If you have time to get together PM me.
Phil

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[QUOTE=SimonM;923202]No.

I don’t know about it.[/quote]

And you wouldn’t know about it because your MMA approach is limiting your kung fu understanding. On the other hand if your MMA approach makes you happy then that is fine and good luck. At the end of the day it comes down to wether we are happy with what we practice.

And hence “when you are in my neck of the woods” comment? Oh I see…lol,lol,lol.

Specially when you make comments about arts that you don’t practice.:wink:

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[QUOTE=Shaolinlueb;922885]well i knew there were styles that addressed ground boxing and i know they are grappling. this is not some new secret news.[/quote]

Can you name me the styles?

Why do you assume that Wing Chun is not among these styles? Because you haven’t heard about it yourself? Or none of your “sifu” :rolleyes: friends have said it here?

I don’t think that you were kidding but I am still trying to enlighten you about kung fu.:smiley:

70

excellent post

Paraphrasing your statement which are completely the same thing I said about WC!!!

Actually conditioning and the continual sparring / fighting in a live environment is one of the best things about any martial arts style of training. This is because reasonably skilled Wing Chun fighters have the ability to take a fight to an area where their opponent is weak to take advantage. Thus Advoiding the ground. An if they go to the ground they can tweak their techniques to get off the ground.

But I do plan to spar at some MMA schools is that good enough? BJJ I don’t think they allow kicks and punches against them. It depends on the school If I am wrong please chime in…I never took BJJ obviously.

But here some questions ground fighters!

What are techs to escape armbar lock?

How do you escape gaurd posistion to move to the dominant posistion?

Didn’t Bruce Lee do some Jiujitsu too? Wasn’t it bruce lee known for biting when he got tangled up. Or did he get his teeth knocked out?

If your teeth are knocked out can’t you still bite with your gums…what about the back molars?

[QUOTE=Wayfaring;923199]Sure there is. You actually go out and spar with these different types of fighters to obtain an idea of what to expect.

You mean you actually have to train in martial arts to be able to fight with them? Geez, and here all along I thought you just had to post on the Internet.

Actually the conditioning and the continual sparring / fighting in a live environment is one of the best things about the MMA style of training. Being an out of shape MA practitioner that doesn’t spar or fight and yet thinking your science will protect you is delusional.

Oh, I wouldn’t go that far. You seem to present plenty of reasons to ridicule you.

So outside of the fat kid in high school who said “dude get off me”, how many personal fights have you had that did or did not go to the ground? Any objective
evidence? Because how you feel usually doesn’t dictate how a fight goes.

Why does this flame you? Modern evidence suggests that the strengths of an art have less to do with winning or losing than limiting the weaknesses. This is because reasonably skilled fighters have the ability to take a fight to an area where their opponent is weak to take advantage.

This is pretty clear evidence you have zero experience with arm bars. If you are being arm barred you do not have elbows - one is trapped and the other has no leverage to strike with. You don’t have knees as you are not in a position to be able to strike with any force with them. You have no target to head butt. You probably could bite the top leg, but the effect of that would probably be to p!ss someone off enough to really crank the arm bar, severely dislocating your elbow. There are effective escapes from this position, none of which has anything to do with what you stated.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=lkfmdc;923217]“you may not be interested in war, but war might be interested in you”

Go to a BJJ school, challenge them, report back to us what happens with that theory of yours :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

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Kid, you’re officially an idiot.

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Wtf

[QUOTE=Kansuke;923403]Kid, you’re officially an idiot.[/QUOTE]

Sir that was rather unkind? was that referring to me by chance?

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[QUOTE=Yoshiyahu;923407]Sir that was rather unkind? was that referring to me by chance?[/QUOTE]

Not by chance. Very deliberately.

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[QUOTE=SimonM;923327]Headbutts don’t work from the ground.[/QUOTE]:eek: :rolleyes: !

[QUOTE=lkfmdc;923330]The real issue is that, in order to gouge, head butt, etc you need CONTROL… who can hit easier, the guy on top or the guy pinned on the bottom…[/QUOTE]:wink:

75

^
hahahahahahahahahahahahhaha. That was great.

Anyways…

But I do plan to spar at some MMA schools is that good enough? BJJ I don’t think they allow kicks and punches against them.

The great thing about a good number of mma/bjj schools is, instead of the normal non-confrontational feminine asshats that love to claim they’ve got black belts in “kung fu” and “Karate”, these schools usually have at least a few actual athletes that are pretty well-versed in pain, so I can almost guarantee you that they won’t have any problem letting you spar against them with punches and kicks. :expressionless:

This is because reasonably skilled Wing Chun fighters

Whats a wing chun fighter anyway?
Since when did any style have a trademark on the way you express your ****ing body? I can trap using some wing chun and southern mantis concepts, then what does it become? Wing Mantis? What the ****?

Stylistic constraints are so ridiculous. You fight as a human being. Absorbing what is useful, no matter the style.

Didn’t Bruce Lee do some Jiujitsu too? Wasn’t it bruce lee known for biting when he got tangled up. Or did he get his teeth knocked out?

Yeah and he was also known for being well versed in several grappling arts.

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[QUOTE=Yoshiyahu;923399]This is because reasonably skilled Wing Chun fighters have the ability to take a fight to an area where their opponent is weak to take advantage.[/quote]I assume you are talking about the WC speciality of close range? Which is also one of the grapplers specialities. You are also talking about using fine-motor skills (various aimed strikes to sensitive targets or even openings) against gross-motor skills (wrapping one limb around any part of the body and essentially, falling down)?

Thus Advoiding the ground
You can’t avoid what you are standing on. If you don’t knock them out on the way in, your theories and you are going down.

An if they go to the ground they can tweak their techniques to get off the ground.
The skilled WCer who spends 95% or more of their time on stand-up, and 5% or less on rolling around with someone else who spends 95% or more of their time on stand-up, and 5% or less on rolling around can ‘tweak their techniques to get off the ground’? :rolleyes: Not if the bloke who spends 90% of the time on the ground rolling with someone else who spends 90% of their time on the ground wants to stop them.

But I do plan to spar at some MMA schools is that good enough? BJJ I don’t think they allow kicks and punches against them.
That’s nearly good enough. Actually sparring at some (assuming reasonable quality) MMA schools would be good enough. Remember to ask them to include a ‘to-the-tap’ clause, rather than just letting them go with ‘to-the-snap’, or you’ll get a nasty break.

But here some questions ground fighters!

What are techs to escape armbar lock?

How do you escape gaurd posistion to move to the dominant posistion?
Keep asking these kind of questions and you should be able to improve your fighting skills. Ask them of people who are in a position to show, preferably a class.

Didn’t Bruce Lee do some Jiujitsu too? Wasn’t it bruce lee known for biting when he got tangled up. Or did he get his teeth knocked out?
Bruce Lee had maybe one fight, apart from the roof-top debacles. Ever seen any of those?

If your teeth are knocked out can’t you still bite with your gums…what about the back molars?
You’re going to grind them to death? Works on deadly corn-cob attacks. Might work on the soft fruit too, but your stuck by the time you get to pointy sticks.

:wink: :smiley:

77

Wait!..

The ghost of Yip Man just channelled the spirits of the Boxer Rebels: they said to look at a couple of threads from 1996 and channel them back their realism.

Where the hell did this dumb-ass thread come from? I dunno, turn my back for five minutes and everyone’s gone all retro…

78

An if they go to the ground they can tweak their techniques to get off the ground.

go test the theory, then get back to us

79

question

Mr Punch and AdrianK

how do you escape the guard posistion to gain a dominant posistion?

how do you escape arm bar?

80

how do you escape the guard posistion to gain a dominant posistion?

I don’t know what a “posistion” is. This can’t be a typo since you did it twice in one sentence.

You don’t “escape” the guard. You sweep or submit from here. Or if striking is OK, kick the cr@p out of the guy.

how do you escape arm bar?

From on top or underneath? Normal or cutting armbar? how are the guy’s legs positioned?