Why did leung Jan do challenge matches?
Did he feel it was important to prove wing chun as a fighting art?
Does that say anything about him?
If he felt it was important to prove wing chun as a fighting art, is it important for us as modern day wing chun practitioners to prove wing chun as a fighting art?
If so how do we go about that?
If it is not important to prove wing chun then why?
people always repeat stories of the great victories of their grandmasters or sifus and sigungs
ALL styles have famous people like Wong Fei Hung and Leung Jan etc who won against ALL challengers
Makes you wonder if all these masters were undefeated who the heck they won against 
Kids don’t count I suppose…
But honestly with joking aside, does anyone actually KNOW of any famous martial arts masters Leung Jan defeated in his glory years?! firehawk? rene?
I mean actual masters of other styles as opposed to the local bully
Originally posted by EmptyCup
[snip]…Makes you wonder if all these masters were undefeated who the heck they won against
The best fighters fight only battles they can win. That’s why they are undefeated.
If all the teams in the NBA went and played games against high school teams and won everytime I think it’s ridiculous for them to and their fans to “gloat” over these “victories”
Playing/fighting (and winning) against people on your “level” is what I expect.
what about proving wing chun
what about proving wing chun’s fighting ablity, for us as modern wing chun people.
i think the law is much more intolerant of fighting now than in the good old days of the wild east
so unless you want to be sued/killed/arrested it’s better to save the fighting for the “no turning back” or “my gf is about to be raped by a thug” situations in life
but theoretically it would be beneficial to “test” out the system since it apparently hasn’t been revised much in recent times (form what I see in the forums 
) If you look around how many other things in life is based on more theory than substance?
In any sport people don’t just take somebody’s word for it…they practice and train and DO IT.
Martial arts is the only exception. However as stated before there are good reasons for this. Yet it seems as if most martial artists are just content to believe theior system is the best it can possibly be and everything they were taught was and is still true. And that’s the problem. Just because some of us have never fought doesnt’ mean we shoudl sit here and believe blindly. Look at the NHB events to see how real fights go down. How many kung fu/karate/TKD people have actually pulled off their techniqies supposedly developed from countless fights and hundreds of years of experience, let alone win something?
Martial arts created hundreds and thousands of years ago were made for different people. Shorter people fighting other short people perhaps. Or other styles who used mainly hands. Or ones who used mainly feet. They weren’t exposed to the current fighter who is competent in boxing, kicking, groundfighting, etc
Those asian men never had to face 260 pound 6’6 animals or clones of Shamrock and other protein packed beasts who were trained in multiple disciplines.
Heck forget hundreds…I wouldn’t even buy a walkman made 10 years ago. How can people place so much trust in styles created so long ago and never improved upon? And place you life in that trust when most of us wouldn’t even do things like people did a decade ago? All traditional martial arts have room to improve.
Wing Chun may have been proven in the past. we don’t know that. What we can know is what people do to show it works in today’s world with today’s improving martial artists
Re: what about proving wing chun
Originally posted by wingchunalex
what about proving wing chun’s fighting ablity, for us as modern wing chun people.
As a modern WC practitioner, I think I don’t have to fight challenge matches to prove that WC can be used in a real fight. You should avoid a fight/brawl as best you can. Only when your life/love ones/property is in danger should you resort to fighting. Fighting (using WC) should be the last resort. Even if you win the fight, you could still be the loser because you could land in jail.
yes that’s basically what i said
however i also noted that whenever you hear about WC against MMA in NHB tourneys you hear them getting beaten down
then ppl always say “oh that guy wasn’t really proficient in it anyways”
how do we know the MMA guy was any good either? maybe he was the worst of the lot
so if wing chun is only to be used in self defence. then it is not to be used in competitive fighting/sparring where it can be proven.
if other martial arts can be used in competitive fighting why can’t wing chun? wing chun is a fighting art isn’t it?
If wing chun is not a flowery art for show, and its not a fighting art when many martial arts are (bjj, traditional karate, etc), then is it solely for self defence?
can it be used for fighting/sparring?
in my experience it can be.
and if wing chun is only for self defence then how is it proven that it works for self defence in today’s world if it is not used to fight?
(im making a distiction between self defence and fighting, in fighting you don’t have to chop the guy in the throat, poke out his eye, and break his knee and elbow)
Of course, WC can be used in sparring or in competitiions. It is up to the individual when and where to use it. I for one, spar with friends from other martial arts. But sparring does not prove anything. It is just a part of my training. Sparring is one way to open my eyes to other methods of fighting that other martial arts can offer. With sparring you can figure out the strengths and weaknesses of other martial arts. Sparring also points out WC’s strengths and weaknesses against these other styles.
Sparring with other styles can be a learning experience. But it is no way to prove that WC is a fighting art.
As for MA competitions, it depends on what kind of competition. NHB fights are closer to reality than point sparring. If you really feel that you have to prove something, then competing in these tournaments is a “safe” way in doing it. I say “safe” because you will not land in jail. Another reason is, if you are injured, there are medical professionals standing by.
thats true that you don’t know for sure if you can win a fight. but i would at least hope that sparring tells me wheather i am likely to be able to block a punch, and different kinds of punches than you find in chi sau.
so yeah, i basically agree with you wingman
ps- wingman i like your signature message
all the above is interesting. Who stands the better chance, The you who only practices forms and drills, or the you who does sparring in addition to the aforementioned?
Sounds like wing chun is the art of fighting without fighting, ie suppressing the human desire to prove that you are better than another, and moving to the level of being self assured and in control of your ego. Those who know don’t show, those who show don’t know.
I thought about this issue myself and realized that each master had it’s own place with his own people. When they say that someone was undefeated I understand that it is inside the school.
Usually master wouldn’t go to fight other masters, but when a student defeated the master this meant that the new student is the new master. I read a little about Bushido and it seems that this is the logic of being undefeated
Someone once said that, undefeated means you haven’t fought the right person yet.
In reality it doesn’t matter what any given person in any given MA did or can do, its what YOU can do.
Sometimes fighters are succesful in SPITE of whay they do, not because of it.
Natural talent and all that.
Other times its a question of picking the right fights.
Remember, the Gracies were undefeated until they became “public” annd there system was no longer a “secret”.
[QUOTE=wingchunalex;269323]so if wing chun is only to be used in self defence. then it is not to be used in competitive fighting/sparring where it can be proven.
if other martial arts can be used in competitive fighting why can’t wing chun? wing chun is a fighting art isn’t it?
If wing chun is not a flowery art for show, and its not a fighting art when many martial arts are (bjj, traditional karate, etc), then is it solely for self defence?
can it be used for fighting/sparring?
in my experience it can be.[/QUOTE]
I guess us UK practitioners will find out soon eh, as Alan Orr has a competition lined up for SENi08 http://www.alanorr.co.uk/htdocs/images/chisauindex.html
It’s actually good to see someone trying to gather people together, so I wish this event every success.
Still, Leurng Jan just ‘fought’ his opponents apparently, out boxing them technically and strategically. And obviously, once he beat the life out of you, he restored your health with accupuncture and TCM. Ah! To be in the old days!
Back then the idea of Chisau was still a very big mystery and not intended for the competitive arena, so I’m told…
what about proving wing chun’s fighting ablity, for us as modern wing chun people.
I can’t see how the quasi-legendary exploits of someone who lived a century or more ago helps that cause.
Usually master wouldn’t go to fight other masters, but when a student defeated the master this meant that the new student is the new master.
One of the better brown belts got a submission out of my black belt BJJ instructor while rolling last night. By your logic, the brown belt should now take over the school and that makes no sense.
Andy Rod****, among many others, has been quoted as saying he learns more from losing then from winning. If you can beat everyone on your block, it’s time to move further afield if you want to keep improving.
[QUOTE=EmptyCup;269318]yes that’s basically what i said
however i also noted that whenever you hear about WC against MMA in NHB tourneys you hear them getting beaten down
then ppl always say “oh that guy wasn’t really proficient in it anyways”
how do we know the MMA guy was any good either? maybe he was the worst of the lot ;)[/QUOTE]