Who here has actually trained with a Shaolin Monk?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Shaolin Kung Fu
61

i train with a monk

hello all. hi gene.
well let me start by giving my idea on the whole wushu vs. traditional forms from the monks of today. i am now training in texas with shi xing hao. he is about 27 years old and was at shaolin temple about 14 years. now before shi xinghao went to shaolin he had already practiced kungfu from about age 6…he became very proficient at contemporary wushu(they refer to as long fist). later at the age 14(i believe) he went to shaolin temple…his first year there he hated it. he was use to long fist, so his stances were open and his chest out…he refers to this as very beautiful and open. but the training he was recieving at shaolin had tighter stances and a concept of every part of the body coils up and then explodes then back to coiled up(this is hard to explain in words). my point in short is that there is big difference in contemp. wushu and traditional shaolin. Shi xing hao almost decided to leave shaolin, because it was so different from what he already new(contemporary long fist)and he found it very hard to adapt to in the beginning.
i have learned so much in such a short time here in houston. i was in shaolin temple for a month in '96 and i learned shao hong chuan, a staff form, and a sword form. the only form i kept was shao hong chuan but i can’t say it was even close to being good. i thought i knew the form,but after a short time here shi xing hao fixed my form and basically changed the whole thing. well the form looks the same but how i do the moves is completely different and i am actually starting to be enlightened on the concept of developing the power and understanding the moves. so, my 2 cents is that yes there is wushu at shaolin, and yes there is true traditional shaolin at shaolin today. if anyone is gonna be in dallas at the jimmy wong tournament i would be happy to discuss this and give my take on my interpretation of what i’ve learned. i am not saying i know the true right way to do shaolin, i just wanna see and discuss what the diffence is from my view and anyone elses.
respect to all,
dieter wagner

62

Who here has actually trained with a Shaolin Monk?

Well there you go - 60 posts on this thread and we’ve digressed into all this shaolin controversy, but only 4 responses to the actual question - 1 student of Deru, 1 student who trained at the Southern Shaolin Temple, 1 student who took a weekend seminar with Yanzi, and Dieter above, who is sort of a ringer. An interesting situation, sort of indicative of how shaolin is experienced vs. how it is perceived.

Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com

63

Training

I spent a couple years training closely with Yan Ming, and met Li Peng in Holland (I took one class with him after he moved to NY)…also met some of the other monks as they would pass through NY. (Gene, I think we were introduced once in a car…hmm).

I suggest if you want to learn more about the monks, you train with them for a while. It is ridiculous to me how they are all grouped together as “shaolin monks”. They are all individuals, and pretty damn good martial artists. You’ll find your own truth regarding shaolin. You just have to spend some time training.

I am exhausted by the whole real vs fake argument. The reality of your training is created within yourself, and I believe this applies to the whole “real vs fake” controversy.

Here’s a little snippet that I often tell people to explain my experience. Li Peng hosted a demo/tournament in Holland. One of the younger monks, I forget his name becuase it was very complicted to say, came by my hotel room after a demo to teach me some chin na. He spoke no english, but signaled with his hands for me to take notes, and that he would teach me 10 techniques. He did just that (it was very exciting), and then invited me outside. He gave me a lesson on chi kung breathing and instructed me to give it a try. As soon as I began breathing, hit lit up a cigarette and offered me one.

64

I have trained with Shi Yanming on various occassions in NY. He holds seminars at our school from time to time. I learned an open hand and a staff form from him.

Regards,

Michael Amisano
Former Kung-Fu Student
Trying to get back on the right path.

65

well gene…

I’m hoping to train a little next summer, if I can save enough money to go on the study tour with your sifu. will you be there? i’m not very good, do you think i should wait before going on something like that or do you think i should just train harder this year? i also have no experience with Sun style tai chi. i want to go because it sounds like fun anyway.

66

To mamisano

so, you sign your name as “former kung fu student”.

Why do you feel like you’ve fallen off of the path? Your martial arts will change just like your life changes. There will be months when you can get to class, but you can still train…even if its for 20 min. You don’t need a school to be on “the path”, just the will to practice.

Martial arts is a long road. Think big. Instead of, the old “how many times did I practice this week”, think about how many times you practiced this month…this year…this decade.

Good luck and look everywhere for martial arts, not just where you think you should look.

67

More shaolin brothas!

L: Can you give me a hint about being introduced in a car? Was it in NY w/Yanming last year on the way to a sold out live fight match? And how are Lipeng’s classes doing?

M: Do you know the names of the forms you learned from Yanming? And tell me you’re not a former KF-student becuase you took up tae bo or something…

S_K: I probably not go on Lam Sifu’s next tour. We went to compete together in China - it our first trip to the northern mainland (Lam Sifu left China went he was only 8.) That trip changed my world view (but then most trips do…)

We co-led a tour to Shaolin in '98 and it was a disaster that ended in a car crash. Fortunately no one was seriously hurt, but after that I decided not to lead such a tour again. I was in the middle of nowhere, the only one with medical training, with a van full of bleeding friends (including a 4 yr. old) who had followed me there, in the rain. It was a bad trip, a really bad trip.

I met up with his tour in Shaolin in '99, but for some incomprehensible reason they left just before the festival and I stayed. Actually, once you’ve gone to China, it’s much more affordable to go without going on a tour (unless that tour guide has some unusually good connections.) But if you’ve never gone, especially if you plan to train, a guide can be very helpful. Consider your guides very carefully.

I definately encourage you to go, no matter what your skill level is. You learn so much travelling, no matter if it is for kungfu or just personal fulfillment.

And absolutely you should train harder this year whether you are going or not. Just train harder. Don’t even think about the reason why.

Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com

68

To Gene

Yes, we met after trying to get into that fight at the tropicana.

I dunno how Li Peng’s classes are doing. He’s was bouncing around at different locations in the city, and mentioned he was surprised to find out how difficult it was to become successful in NY (as compared to his ventures in Europe).

As I said, I only saw him once after he came to NY. He could be anywhere.

69

Lyle & Lipeng

Hey Lyle,
That’s cool about getting into that fight. I remember that night, but forgive me if your face is a blur to me. If we ever meet face-to-face again, you’ll have to remind me.

I know where Lipeng is - Brooklyn! If you’re interested, contact me privately. After having incredible success in Europe with 4 schools, and a few shaolin-only tournaments, he is starting over very modestly. I think his take on having a big school is “been there, done that.” Now I’m not sure where he will go - he may retire completely (but what a waste that would be.) More on him to come…

Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com

70

what style(s) does li peng teach?

thanks…

71

I am a student of Shi Yan Ming since 1996. Since then I’ve learned from Shi De Yang, Shi Xing Xi, and another fantastic monk from Wushu Guan. I don’t remember his name.

I’m happy my Shifu afforded me the opportunities to train with them, it has been a wonderful journey.

There you go Gene, another post responding to the topic!

What’s up Lyle!

“Watch the Eight
Diagram smash the
diaphragm”

72

Hey Chiman

Glad to see you are here to reprezent!

73

nice to hear for shaolin ny

Looks like we have reps from Yanming & Xinghao. Cool. Let’s keep the family together here. Anyone from any of the other US monks?

centerline vortex: I’ve never actually taken a lesson from Lipeng so maybe you should ask Lyle. I know he is strong in qigong & ditang, and even the other monks regards his overall skill as top notch, which they certainly don’t say about every other monk.

Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com

74

Li Peng

As with all of the monks, he teaches his own style.

I can say that he believes in learning applications of forms, and that he seems to lean toward a more traditional interpretation of shaolin.

75

Details

Gene:
Please explain exactly what you mean by “trained at the Shaolin Temple”. As we know the Shaolin temple is a Museum now. But of course they run training centres. So can you delinate the whole structure for us? i.e. how many training halls/schools/ locations , different ones for chinese,? for foreigners? for the foreign-monk-show teams/ for the internal-monk-show-teams / command and onwership struture? government involvement owership? i.e. a management organization structure chart.
How many actual real monks now? In 89 i heard there were 11, and something like 5000 kids in the run-for-profit school.
Are they really selling/giving certificates to people in all kinds of countries? Semms to be the case.
What is the Shaolin involvement with the National Wushu Organization in Beijing (that org is responsible for disseminating official “government kung-fu” and arranging all tournaments domestic and foreign and the programs at the sports universities.) Seems there must be some close connection. Any organization not government sponsored is technically illegal. All DanWei’s (work units) inclding schools (and would think must be shaolin) have a political officer.
Now don’t snow me now like ignoring some other legitimate orgs or pretending there is only one big boss or whatever. I’ll be passing by Shaolin again this summer (not too far from here)and get more at it. Last time my foot was broken and hindered my research efforts.
Well this is China and organizations are anything but simple and open to inspection. Everything in China is fake, including the government, everyone lies, there is level after level after level, and there is always a myth or illusion or face maintained. You almost have to be chinese to realize everything is an illusion except for the bullets that get fired in the back of some people’s heads.
Your Wudang article showed quite a great naiviety about China, so i have my doubts about the quality of information you can provide. But shoot me down please if it’s not so, and gen me up.
thanxs

76

Stumblefist

How would you know you are in California? Have you ever actually lived in China? Trained at Shaolin? Also why would you have to be Chinese to understand?

Witness the Dynasty!!!
New Site! www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net

77

Who’s on First?

ShaolinDynasty.
I don’t quite get your bent. I am living in China now for quite some years. I have not trained at Shaolin although i have gone and “snooped around” asking many questions as is my wont.
I said you would “almost” have to be chinese to understand the illusory “face presentation” of chinese society vs whatever might be real. The chinese model of the universe is quite different form the western model.
That doesn’t mean communication is impossible or evaluation or criticism is impossible as some people hold. After all we all operate on deeper human being principles. The key is to understand how those processes are being applied in culture. Some Americans take what they are told in China at face value, may not be so much incorrect as just too simple.
So if i look at any organization, i can tell you or investigate who has what authority, what power to do what, where the ofiices are, who is boss to whom, how is the transmission of information, the missions or functions,what power sruggles or conflicts exist etc., etc. .i.e. the structure. So i’m trying to find out the complexity of the Shaolin Organization for the “Shaolin Monastery”. More involved in that is who is deciding what is official or government Shaolin Monastery Kung-Fu, who is controlling the development and transmission of that. It seems it has recently been re-invented to some extent with the resurfacing of some knowledge fromm som individuals, that’s probably with some government assistance and control, The government’s official tract on Shaolin is that they are not sure what Shaolin used to be.
So i am trying to find out what and who is the offical
“Shaolin monk kungfu” and what transpires at what locations. Is all practice under central control or distributed control. etc. etc. The more distributed, the less meaningful is any idea of an offical “Shaolin Monk Kungfu”.
Shaolin Pai itself is a different story. Shaolin Pai is a unique style distributed throughout Henan. It is similar to “Govermnent Shaolin” and “Shaolin Monastery Monk-fu” but does not need to be exactly the same and has many variations.
…
How would i know i am in California? Well, we studied this question in Philosophy 101. How would i know i am dreaming? - because if i use awareness, i can identify certain characteristics of dreams and the experience of which i can compare to memories of the experience of not-dreaming. Within this context i can say if i am dreaming or not. However, i grant if there was some other level of experience i was unaware and had never experienced, (such as like the matrix) then i could not know i was under illusion.
You really didn’t want to know that did you? :slight_smile:

[This message was edited by stumblefist on 06-21-01 at 10:31 PM.]

78

stumblefist…

I find your comment “Everything in China is fake, including the government, everyone lies,…” offensive. If you truly beleive this, why on earth do you choose to live there and post here? Plus I’m Chinese - are you calling me a liar? (Actually I do lie on occasion, despite my Buddhist vows - I admit I’m a bad Buddhist - but I certainly don’t care to be called a liar, and I suspect most Chinese concur.) True, face is an alien concept to westerner, but it’s not too hard to understand once once you get filial piety and no reason to call us all fakes and liars.

However, I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt, since the essence of your question is interesting.

The structure of Shaolin is a tangled web, like so many Chinese organizations, as I’m sure you’re familiar. There are many factions, including the temple itself, Dengfeng govt., Zhengzhou govt., CITS, IWF, and private enterprise. Each vies for power, as political entities do, and each is ‘official’ in it’s own right. The abbot made a bold political move by trying to expurgate the village recently, eliminating many of the private factions, but I suspect he was backed by Dengfeng govt., since that is where all those factions will have to relocate and that will boost their economy. So I don’t mean to snow you, but I cannot really answer this question easily.

Furthermore, I have no idea how many schools and students there are now, nor how many monks, because these numbers frequently change. My guess is that there are several dozen schools, maybe 10 to 20,000 students, 100-200 wenseng and 50 wuseng, based on observation and interview in 1999.

Nor do I know how many shows there are - I should qualify that any faction might run a monk show, plus I even saw one the originated in Beijing and heard of one coming out of Shandong - completely out of Shaolin, so it’s really hard to tell. Many of the private schools put out tours, as well as private promoters, with dubious connections to the temple, if any at all. But then again, there are tours that have several of the geneuine monks on board too. There is no standard or control. I estimate I have seen at least a half a dozen different tours in the USA, each supposedly ‘official’. Some definately were, others definately were not. The Bejing tour, which was the most fake one I have witnessed personally, drew a sold-out standing ovation, the most positive response I have ever seen to such a tour. If you can’t tell which is which, you don’t really need to know.

Indeed, many of these schools are illegal, especially since only three are authorized to teach foreigners but they all do. I have heard that some of these private schools are selling certificates, and that wouldn’t be in the least bit surprizing. But as you know from living there, China is not the Orwellian vision most Americans believe it to be. It is more like small fiefdoms and posse mentality, so many such laws are never enforced. Those laws are somewhat silly anyway.

So no chart, no organization, it’s like a Chinese fire drill. But that doesn’t mean it’s all invalid. There is just a loud signal-to-noise ratio. I assume your after the ‘real kungfu’ on your next trip so the best thing to do is to find contacts through the teachers that you are currently studying with in China. They should be able to direct your towards a good teacher at Shaolin. There is plenty of good traditional kungfu at Shaolin that is not “official.” In fact, some of that is the best stuff… I hope your foot heals up so you can study their more seriously.

Lastly, I admit I have little expertise in China, but I’m very curious to know what portion of my Wudang article you felt was naive?

Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com

79

Wu Dang Article

Gene-

where can I find this article of yours?

chiman

“Watch the Eight
Diagram smash the
diaphragm”

80

Wutang enters Wudang

Our eZine article archive is in reconstruction now, but you can still access the old archive thfough a bug in the system. Go to our home page, click magazines, then click view old magazine format. This will take you to our old site. Then click eZine from there and you can get inot our old eZine.
Hopefully, it’ll all be reorgnized soon, but try that for now.

Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com