Yuanfen, I agree with your comments. iwas just making some generalizations based upon some of the earlier comments in the thread.
In TWC we are taught that the 8 chop/slash knives were named after the principle areas Monks would chop at to maim before killing. I’m not going to get into WC is, or is not from Shaolin/Monks argument. I’m simply relaying what I was taught. Those 8 chops are to the ankles, knees, elbows, and wrists.
jam literally translated is chop, not slash
Chop can be pek or jaam. Slash can also be jaam.
Is it stab, chop or slash?
Look at the construction of the knives, think about the environment in which they may have been used - perhaps on the battlefield, and consider the nature of what has come before. The knives inform the hands as the hands inform the knives.
I would label pek as slash
Originally posted by EmptyCup
I would label pek as slash
The application is the application. Some are getting too hung up on definitions.
When discussing the bot chom doh (or the pole), one must keep in mind that this is an area that is not compartmentalized like learning the earlier stages of the Kung Fu. First, many do not make it to this level. Second, there is the old superstition about learning the knives directly from your Sifu will “cut” the relationship. Hence, learning the knives can often be an experience for most NOT to be learned directly from the Sifu.
As one progresses in the Kung Fu, you should encouraged by the system not to depend on the system. So, a set of movements can be left to the matured mind to express as they feel appropriate. You will see many different expressions from those who endured the path truthfully. This is the level of what is.
Good luck in your kung fu.
I’m not sure the importance of who Ip Man “really taught the knives to” has for practitioners TODAY.
After all, with the spread of Ip Man Wing Chun around the world, the availablity of video and seminars, everyone has access to the knives today in whatever “choreography” exists.
Ip Man was known for offering “secret” stuff to people who came offering large sums of cash. Sometimes, that was extra secret “more moves” on the jong, more moves in the sets, etc.
Course, if you weren’t a capable WCK student to begin with, one wonders what all the extra double secret probation stuff would do you anyway.
On the other hand, how do we know what Ip Man taught anyone at a particular point in time–we weren’t there, and there are timeframes when direct students where not around each other when they learned from Ip Man–so even THEY don’t know. Their training time with him did not overlap.
For example Leung Sheung and Lok Yiu lived with Ip Man from 1949 to 1955. Whereas William Cheung lived with Ip Man after he had moved out of the Restaurant worker’s Union HQ. Could William know for sure what Lok Yiu learned in the evenings with Ip Man? Could Lok Yiu know for sure William learned in the evenings living with Ip Man?
Even Ip Man’s son’s arrived late to HK to begin their real training in their father’s art. Who knows what they were taught by their father directly one on one?
In the end, what matters is what one can do with their own skills in real life.
Since the name is unique to Yip Man WCK, I would think Yip Man would know its meaning or perhaps even coined the term himself. (They are more generically in WCK called simply Yee Jee Seung Do, or Parallel Double Knives, due to the way they are held parallel to each other. In my branch, they are known as Yee Jee Kim Yeung Dit Ming Do, Parallel Clamping Yang Life Taking Knives).
They are typically called ‘knives’ because in Chinese, Do (Dao) is a weapon with a single sharpened edge, while Gim (Jian) has both edges sharpened and is typically given the ‘swords’ translation. It makes differentiating the two characters easier in English.
8 as in 8 Chop Knives doesn’t have to mean the #8, just as 2 in Yee Jee Kim Yeung Ma or Yee Jee Seung Do refers to the shape rather than the character. 8 is a two-part character, as the knives are two-parts (2 knives) weapons. 8 is a convergeant character (^), and the knives are sometimes held in a convergeant manner (like for Kwun or Gaun). 8 can also represent the cardinal directions and represent covering all the angles. Just as ‘chop’ in the name doesn’t mean you can’t stab (I believe Yip Man has stabbing motions with the knife–at least other lineages do), 8 doesn’t have to overly restrict the meaning.
In general, though, I agree with KJ. The core content is the most important and choreography can just be a secret decoder ring for a special club.
Originally posted by Phil Redmond
In TWC we are taught that the 8 chop/slash knives were named after the principle areas Monks would chop at to maim before killing. I’m not going to get into WC is, or is not from Shaolin/Monks argument. I’m simply relaying what I was taught. Those 8 chops are to the ankles, knees, elbows, and wrists.
Sifu Redmond, shouldn’t it be :In TWC we are taught that the 8 chop/slash knives were named after the principle areas Monks would chop at to maim rather kill.
Regards
CD
FWIW/IMO
No intention of being negative. Who learned what from Ip man himself whether its the bjd or biu gee has less relevance with the passage of time. And the subject IMO is loaded with pride and misinformation.
There have been all kinds of sharing of info of different aspects of Ip man’s teaching- since Ip man’s time- a diferent world and culture. (I dont like the term “protecting the rice bowl”-
rather crudeand gneral. Or “choreography”- an import from dance aesthetics not martial function and integrity of motion. Ok-personal idiosyncracies-
not relevant to the rest of the post).
But some terms are symbolic “markers” of origin. The bot jom do clearly was a Ip man usage-not a general southern usage or a label for all double knives.
Lots of people and the Chinese specially used numbers for different kinds of organization of information and curricular matters..
The yee and yee gee kim yeung ma shows the triangular aligned pronation of the hips, knees and toes…of great importance for the
sil lim tao…it follows the calligraphic representation of the number 2.
The bot comes from the calligraphic representation of the number 8 with two smooth slashes…illustrative of Ip man’s approach to the proper coordination of the knives in practice. There is a “do” in bot jam do. You see the “bot” in the Ip man organization of knife training.Of course there are other organizations by bot in wc- but not in the same way as in bjd.
For contemporary times- the important thing is understanding, sharing and doing wing chun right rather than name dropping and one up manship IMO.
joy chaudhuri
Sifu Redmond, shouldn’t it be :In TWC we are taught that the 8 chop/slash knives were named after the principle areas Monks would chop at to maim rather kill.
It’s “principal”, and “before killing”, while it has another connotation, can also be read as “a preferred option to killing”.
8 as in 8 Chop Knives doesn’t have to mean the #8
Rene, do you think the same is true of the 6.5 point pole in some sense?
CD you are right. I should have used ‘rather’.
As to the name of the Do and the Kwan. TWC teaches that the 8 in the Baat Jaam Do represents strikes to the ankles (2), knees (2), elbows (2) and wrists (2). I’m no historian so all I can say is this is what I was taught.
The 6.5 Kwan in TWC has 6 strikes and 1/2 strike.
The explanation for Yee Jee Kim Yeung Mah is the the feet should be parallel to each other like the old style of writing the character for number (2 vertical lines). Not the way 2 is written now. If anyone had seen the video of the 2nd William Cheung seminar at the VT Museum he explains it there. He even went to a board and wrote the character for the number 8 which looks like the pigeon toed YJKYM that I did for 13 years and then he wrote the character for 2 like the YJKYM I do now. I’m not saying one is better than the other. To each his own. I never knock anyone else’s WC. I can only pass on the info I learned in TWC from Sifu Cheung.
There seems to be more than six possible strikes with the kwan.
But I agree with Phil— in these matters of explaining the meaning
of bjd and the 6 1/2 points of the kwan- there are different explanations- and as Pil sez to each his own.
We have 6.5 distinct strikes with the pole. The other movements are parries before the strike. But like you said there are many possibilities. I learned to flip the knives in one lineage. But TWC doesn’t do it. Though there is the possibility that you can be disarmed if you flip at the right time. I still see some benefits of having the knives along your forearm in certain instances. I just wouldn’t do that during a TWC class 
Sorry Phil for the typo in my last post.
Hey Andrew,
Rene, do you think the same is true of the 6.5 point pole in some sense?
The Dim (Dian/Point) character makes me lean more towards a numerical count, however I have read interpretations that, rather than 6 1/2, it was meant as a 6:30 read, though I do not understand this as that would seem more likely for a 2-ended pole set rather than single ended like we do.
Also, unlike Yee or Baat, the Luk (liu) character is rather more complex.
Hey guys,
In my branch, they are known as Yee Jee Kim Yeung Dit Ming Do, Parallel Clamping Yang Life Taking Knives).
In Leung Jan’s Koo Lo teaching the knives were refered to as:
Yee Jee Yum Yeung Dit Ming Dao
Leung Jan also had some challenge fights with the knives and was reported to have killed people with them. Of course death waivers would have been signed prior to any of these sort of fights. If not, LJ would have been in tossed in jail.
Regards,