We never really see guns over here in england so i cant really say whats best, but i def wouldnt take it out of the house with u.
I carry a single point, metal kobutan with me where ever i go, and its the only weapon ive ever needed. I can bet you that theres more chance of u getting shot if u have a gun, and a kobutan wont go off in ur pocket!!!
The site I referrenced refuted the “there’s more of a chance of you getting shot if you have a gun” theory.
Any statistics anti-gun types have refuting this seem to be drawn from a pool of data which include the “suicide” category. Prof. Kleck of Florida State University’s School of Criminology and Criminal Justice in analyzing statistics provided by the DOJ states that “…less than 2% of fatal gun accidents occur during defensive gun use.”
The U.S. Department of Justice estimates that there are 1.5 million defensive gun uses by law abiding citizens every year…and some studies estimate a million MORE than that yearly.
Also, in analyzing the “National Crime Victimization Survey (1992-98)” Professor Kleck indicates that:
“In general, self-protection measures of all types are effective, in the sense of reducing the risk of property loss in robberies and confrontational burglaries, compared to doing nothing or cooperating with the offender. The most effective form of self-protection is use of a gun. For robbery the self-protection meaures with the lowest loss rates were among victims attacking the offender with a gun, and victims threatenting the offender with a gun.”
Here’s a table relating his summary of this Department of Justice study (the NCVS):
http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdgeff_table7.html
Another book (James D. Wright & Peter H. Rossi, Armed and Considered Dangerous: A Survey of Felons and Their Firearms [1986], approached this issue from a different perspective, the felon’s.
Professors James D. Wright and Peter Rossi surveyed 2,000 felons incarcerated in state prisons across the United States. Wright and Rossi reported that 34% of the felons said they personally had been “scared off, shot at, wounded, or captured by an armed victim”; 69% said that they knew at least one other criminal who had also; 34% said that when thinking about committing a crime they either “often” or “regularly” worried that they “[m]ight get shot at by the victim”; and 57% agreed with the statement, “Most criminals are more worried about meeting an armed victim than they are about running into the police.”
I dont know too much bout the gun laws in the states, but if u took out a gun with u everywhere, then where would u put it? If its in ur bag, u may not be able to get it if u were muged. and is it not classed as open or uncovered if its in a holster???
A gun is a tool and a weapon, just like a bo staff, walking cane, nunchuks or a hammer. I don’t take a gun “everywhere I go.” I use my mind and discretion. There is one glaring instance when I intentionally break the law because I’d rather be judged by twelve than be carried by six. I will not say specifically when I do this. I obey the vast majority of laws, respect people and try to stay out of harms way. If trouble seeks me out then I am going to deal with it peacefully, if I can, and ruthlelessly if I have to. Firearms aren’t the problem. The problem with any weapon, whether it be a typewriter or knife, is the wise man or idiot who is weilding it.
Well said Dim Wit Mak.
MOK, in my state it is legal to carry UNCONCEALED a firearm most places (this would include a holstered weapon). This would get you some strange looks if you’re not wearing some sort of uniform though, so it’s rare to see. The one guy I knew to do this was from Canada, and he wore it here because he couldn’t back home.
Also, in my area, you can get a concealed carry permit. This allows you to carry a concealed weapon to all but a few restricted areas. There’s a whole industry for handgun holsters, and a large number of them offer great holsters that are comfortable and concealable. Lots of folks that carry concealed just put the handgun in a coat pocket.
Statistically, crime rates in areas that pass concealed carry laws drop.
Places you can never carry include: schools (including child care centers), courthouse, prisons, political body meetings, places that serve alchohol for greater than 50% of their business, certain portions of airports. The post office is a gray area that should soon be addressed…the law is written that “people not authorized” can’t carry but it’s unclear whether a concealed carry permit is “authorized”. One court ruling has said that , yes, a concealed carry permit IS authorization, but the Postal Service isn’t bowing to that decision (made by a lower court I suppose).
Also, private businesses can put up a sign asking folks not to carry on the premises. No charges can be brought if someone doesn’t comply, but the private business/property owner always has the option of kicking you out.
Sorry to spout on and on, but I just took the concealed carry permit classes so the info is fresh for me.
Manofkent-
Depends on which state you live in. Gun laws vary from state to state. In the state I live in its totally legal to carry a consealed weapon if you have the proper papers and permits. Which is not hard if you are not a convicted felon. Concealed weapons consists of any kind of smaller weapon gun, knife, whatever that can be hidden on a person. I for one don’t carry any weapons on me, except occasionally a knife when I have to walk by myself.
A few things I can say about carrying a gun on you is: if you pull out your gun they will pull out theirs (if they have one), your gun can become their gun if there are multiple people or you don’t pull it out at fist and get taken to the ground.
Bottom line:
Its a liability you have to be willing to take. If you want to carry a gun then realize that you may die because of it. You can preach all day long about how if you had a gun you could have would have saved yourself, but its not really that way. If a mugger pulls a weapon on you just give them what they want and they usually just run off, they don’t want to be pinned for murder. Of course this could be argued all day and all night until the sun explodes.
If someone is stupid or inept enough to get his firearm taken away by someone else, then they deserve to get shot.
Originally posted by Dim Wit Mak
If someone is stupid or inept enough to get his firearm taken away by someone else, then they deserve to get shot.
Pull out your gun on an assailant, his buddy who is behind you hits you with a baseball bat. Picks up your gun and shoots you with it.
Were you that inept you did not notice the guy who was hiding around the corner and who came behind you? Man guess we all need spidey senses.
Department of Justice.
Crime Victimization Survey breakdown.
You are less likely to be hurt if you use a gun to defend yourself from someone in a “confrontational robbery”.
For the info, please refer to the table I referrenced earlier.
Even people who cooperated were more likely to be hurt. Especially telling is the “Post Self-Protection Injury” table. The number of folks injured AFTER cooperating is almost equal to the TOTAL number of folks hurt using a firearm for protection (from a robbery).
The person robbing you might not want you to be able to I.D. them…they could be drugged up…they could just be sadistic. I choose not to rely upon the compassion of a criminal. Obviously, everyone needs to make their own decision about their level of comfort with a firearm, and I certainly don’t think anyone should be forced to carry. But, I think it’s wrong for the law of the land to restrict law abiding citizen’s ability to defend themselves and, perhaps, others. Those same laws do not and will not be heeded by the criminals.
well thats nice but staticts mean jack crap. It has been my personal experience it doesn’t work that way.
An aquaintance of mine was shot in the neck 2 years ago and died 2 blocks from my house. I kind of knew the guy but not that well. He and his g/f were walking home from the bars one night and someone mugged them with a gun. When the robber went for his g/f’s purse the strap was crossed over her body and wasn’t coming off easily. The guy tried pulling the purse off to give it to robber. The robber thought he was pulling out a weapon and shot him dead in the throat with a 9mm pistol. Needless to say he died moments later. I had known the guy from the bar, drank with him, and played pool against him. I felt sad for his g/f and his family. Not to mention all she had in her purse were a few female products and like 9 dollars in change. Now if he would not have moved or jerked that purse off, he probably would not have been shot. So if someone is waving a weapon at you demanding money, wallets, purse, etc. then give it to them. If you try to pull your weapon you are gonna get stabbed or shot.
Statistics can’t cover every aspect of violent crime, nor do they cover all crimes. I read through your little table from the justice dept. They don’t explain the research or cite anything. Plus we all know statistics are not proof, or certainties.
When studying the martial arts, it is important to study all aspects of self defense. In kenpo we are taught to always be aware of our surroundings, body language, and to ALWAYS expect the perp to have friends and weapons. It is my obligation to not get in a position where the tactical advantage goes to my opponent(s). These considerations are just as important as kicks and punches.
In five animal kung fu, we are taught to approach problems with many different problem solving methods at our disposal. These could range from a tiger approach of of manhandling the problem to the “spitting cobra” approach of impairing vision so we can leave the premises directly. There are numerous other approaches that the animal stylist can apply in a split second if needed. It’s my obligation to be smarter than the perp(s). If I’m not, then I am creating problems for myself.
Originally posted by Dim Wit Mak
[B]When studying the martial arts, it is important to study all aspects of self defense. In kenpo we are taught to always be aware of our surroundings, body language, and to ALWAYS expect the perp to have friends and weapons. It is my obligation to not get in a position where the tactical advantage goes to my opponent(s). These considerations are just as important as kicks and punches.
In five animal kung fu, we are taught to approach problems with many different problem solving methods at our disposal. These could range from a tiger approach of of manhandling the problem to the “spitting cobra” approach of impairing vision so we can leave the premises directly. There are numerous other approaches that the animal stylist can apply in a split second if needed. It’s my obligation to be smarter than the perp(s). If I’m not, then I am creating problems for myself. [/B]
Good post. I agree. Most of the time if you are aware of whats happening around you, you can avoid the crime all together. I live in a midtown area with lots of bars and clubs and all that for the young kids. Lots of shady stuff goes down, and if you are aware of it and avoid it you 90% of the time you will be okay. I see drug deals happen from time to time on the streets near my house (especially at my old house which is 4 blocks from my current one). If you just avoid the situation you will be fine. My sifu has been mugged a few times (we live in the same general area) and had guns pulled on him. When the crack heads tried to mug him, he beat them up. When the criminal tried to mug him with a gun, he gave up his wallet. He never got harmed.
The art of fighting with out fighting.
Gangsterfist: I’ve always liked the Mugei Mumei no Jitsu concept which stresses the concept of “the art of fighting without fighting” that you mentioned. This is the dance of life, if you will.
Gangsterfist -
“well thats nice but staticts mean jack crap. It has been my personal experience it doesn’t work that way”
That’s fine, and I agree that statistics can often be skewed to suit the personal agenda.
Some people prefer empirical to anecdotal evidence, and I was just catering to that crowd. For a few more anecdotal stories folks can go here:
http://www.tsra.com/selfdfns.htm
Take care.
Originally posted by Radhnoti
[B]Gangsterfist -
“well thats nice but staticts mean jack crap. It has been my personal experience it doesn’t work that way”
That’s fine, and I agree that statistics can often be skewed to suit the personal agenda.
Some people prefer empirical to anecdotal evidence, and I was just catering to that crowd. For a few more anecdotal stories folks can go here:
http://www.tsra.com/selfdfns.htm
Take care. [/B]
Yeah I am sure there are times when having a gun would advantageous. However, IMO it would only be to your advantage when you are in your home. Carrying a concealed weapon (which is legal in my state) is dumb for the reasons I mentioned in this thread. A lot of those cases seem to be when someone was breaking in someone else’s home and the home owner decides to blast them or capture them using firearms.
I suppose we can agree to disagree.
If nothing else, the plummeting violent crime rates in areas allowing concealed carry make me a supporter.
Respectfully,
Radhnoti
okay agreed.
I am curious why some martial artists fear that a carried firearm can be stolen, but then advocate carrying a knife or collapsible baton. Isn’t the mugger who can disarm a martial artist with a gun perfectly capable of taking that same martial artist’s knife?
Police have been killed by their own pistols. Does that mean that American police would be safer confronting criminals unarmed?
I would suggest that for those who are hesitant to hurt people (despite their studying systems of hand-applied mayhem…), carrying a pistol would *reduce the chances of *anyone being hurt.
Two scenarios:
I (5’4", 53 years old, thick glasses) am walking down a park path. I hear a woman scream. I find her and her three assailants. “Please leave,” I say.
“Or else what, old man?” sneers one.
“Or else you’ll die.” I slow my breath, drop my shoulders, and watch as they all pull knives and move in toward me…
Second scenario:
“Please leave,” I say, pulling my 1911A semiautomatic 45. caliber.
“OK.”
Originally posted by freehand
[B]Two scenarios:
I (5’4", 53 years old, thick glasses) am walking down a park path. I hear a woman scream. I find her and her three assailants. “Please leave,” I say.
“Or else what, old man?” sneers one.
“Or else you’ll die.” I slow my breath, drop my shoulders, and watch as they all pull knives and move in toward me…
Second scenario:
“Please leave,” I say, pulling my 1911A semiautomatic 45. caliber.
“OK.” [/B]
:rolleyes:
Originally posted by freehand
[B]I am curious why some martial artists fear that a carried firearm can be stolen, but then advocate carrying a knife or collapsible baton. Isn’t the mugger who can disarm a martial artist with a gun perfectly capable of taking that same martial artist’s knife?
Police have been killed by their own pistols. Does that mean that American police would be safer confronting criminals unarmed?
I would suggest that for those who are hesitant to hurt people (despite their studying systems of hand-applied mayhem…), carrying a pistol would *reduce the chances of *anyone being hurt.
Two scenarios:
I (5’4", 53 years old, thick glasses) am walking down a park path. I hear a woman scream. I find her and her three assailants. “Please leave,” I say.
“Or else what, old man?” sneers one.
“Or else you’ll die.” I slow my breath, drop my shoulders, and watch as they all pull knives and move in toward me…
Second scenario:
“Please leave,” I say, pulling my 1911A semiautomatic 45. caliber.
“OK.” [/B]
Thats easy. you cannot control every situation. A lot of times the mugger or criminal has a buddy or two just a bit off as a look out and back up. You pull out your weapon and you get blindsided by the buddy and lose it. Then they use it against you.
I have seen people do this, and have seen it work in their favor. Some people selling drugs on my block a while ago ran 3 man teams. 2 on bicycles and one on foot. At first you wouldn’t think they are working together, but in fact they are.
BOTTOM LINE:
If you want to carry a weapon accept the fact that it could be possibly used against you.