When striking, the limbs do not vibrate.

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
41

A keylock is one of the Western Terms for the Japanese Jujitsu/Judo technique Ude-Garami. Americans typically call it keylock, hammerlock, and I’ve heard others as well. Brazilians tend to distinguish the forearm pointed up version by “Americana” and the forearm pointed down version by “Kimura” (in honor of the legendary Japanese Judoka who broke Helio Gracies arm with the technique).

Carlos Newton just won a match beautifully with this move in UFC 40.

(BTW, I tend to grip differently for Ude-Garami than I do for neck cranks/locks, holding one hand on the wrist for the former, and both hands together for the latter. In WCK, though, I typically don’t grip with both hands, or if I do, its transitional to break as a method of clearing the line of entry (technique itself is similar, just method of setup differs, as does intent of delivery, probably closer to Vale Tudo than sub sport. And if MP knows the 10-Finger method BTT uses, I’m all ears!!)

42

Trying to Get Back to Where I Came in. :smiley:

Originally posted by AndrewS
Continuing on in this very enjoyable discussion. . .

I’m enjoying it too. :smiley:
[B]

John-

The ‘small woman’ thing- in reality, if you have two roughly equally trained and motivated practioners using your methods, (ignoring the gender thing) and one is 220lbs while the other is 130lbs, to whom does the advantage go?
[/B]

Obviously I am not making the point well, probably because I’m so familiar with the concept. In fighting, the larger person has the natural advantage. To counter this, the smaller person learns Wing Chun principles that enable the smaller to defeat the larger. No matter how big the Wing Chun practitioner, the fighting principles apply to one’s training, if one seeks to maximize one’s potential.
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Against a larger person, I tend to find myself on the inside. The folks much smaller than me who are better than me tend to wind up in on the inside on me, too. By the same token, at 6’1" and 240lbs, most people I work with are smaller than me. Getting underneath their hands puts me at mechanical disadvantage, and pursuing an inside position too aggressively will lead me to ignore holes which will be filled by the first to note them.
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Starting with the last sentence above, we don’t pursue the inside. The energy and position of our partners determine whether we are inside or outside. We don’t neglect the outside hands position, but we will not be concerned if we find ourselves inside. We do train to be able to be inside against any opponent. It has never occurred to me to modify this approach because I’m working with a smaller partner, since this just forces/enables me to work on my positioning and sensitivity. If you find it hard to be inside against a smaller person, are you giving your smaller partners forward energy? We feel comfortable getting very low in our stance when required. Often I find I’m eye-to-eye with a smaller person.
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The wider shoulders thing is weird, and something I’m still puzzling about as I try to figure out optimum strategies for my build (which disturbingly resembles that of a white Tony Tubbs). My present take is that if I try to get inside on someone with much narrower shoulder girdle who keeps relatively good positions, then I’m almost trying to force my way in somewhere I don’t fit. Bad position, bad force, I’ll wind up inside relatively easily. Bigger guys, I get inside.
[/B]

Tired of using myself as an example, I’ll give you Ken Chung, who as Wing Chun goes, is pretty big, at 5’10” and around 200 pounds. He has no problems going inside on smaller folks. Perhaps KJ can shed some light on this phenomenon.
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Closing the gap- letting the other person come to you is one way to do that. Not trying to be obnoxious, but how would a 5’2" person handle a 6’2" person with a decent jab without closing the gap?
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I’ve always taken the rhetorical position that we close the gap.
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There are a lot of scenarios one can play out, but I do think there is great merit (if one is precontact) to being able to put forth the threat that one may be going in (if nothing else).
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We always close the gap and fight closer than other Wing Chun families that I’ve met, seen, touched, or corresponded with. :smiley:
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Leading leg- not able to defend to either side? With the legs? Or being able to shift side to side?
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Once in contact, it’s not as dangerous, but in closing the gap, I wouldn’t want to present a backside which I couldn’t defend against a good kicker or fast grappler.
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Matching against Wing Chun vs. against other systems. I won’t offer an opinion as to which would be the greater challenge on a theoretical basis. In reality, I’m far more likely to fight someone dangerous from another approach- boxing, wrestling, football, steroids and methedrine. . . Those folks move and present different positions from Wing Chun, and while there’s some excellent developmental overlap which allows us as an art to learn to solve things generally from training according to principle, specific work on such problems does provide great advantage in solving them.
[/B]

That sounds great to train against other arts and the drugs sound enticing too. :smiley: I have nothing against, and in fact like such training. But, (you knew there’d be a big but after reading this far)…but, Wing Chun works well against any style I’ve ever seen.
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As to my dating life- my priorities are diametrically opposed tom those in fighting where I’m actively trying to avoid engaging two people at the same time. . .
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There are bigamy laws in this state, you know. :stuck_out_tongue: Or, are you referring to the “Lucky Pierre” syndrome? :smiley:

Stay out of trouble. :smiley:

43

Hi John,

part of the point that I’m trying to make with this bigger/smaller thing is that if you’re taller and sit low to get under someone smaller who is already low, you may well compromise your body alignment and mobility relative to the smaller person, particularily if they are working from a dropped balanced center of gravity.

In working with smaller people, I used to be in the habit of dropping lower to deal with them. The past few years of working with my seniors I have been encouraged to avoid doing this, and to stand as tall as I can while still maintaining our idea of good structure. This is still sunk relative to drawing oneself up to full height, but gives me significant room to sink lower, either to absorb pressure or express power.

Being bigger and getting inside- here’s my experience- when I go in on smaller people, even from inside positions, they tend to get twisted across themselves and drop very easily, often after being folded down the middle T-ed off to me. Bigger guys it’s easier for me to wind up dead in front of them, playing their arms like being between the dummy arms, breaking their balance straight back. This may be my flaw, I dunno, but this is something I’m trying to figure out- handling relative differences.

Using Ken as an example on taking the inside may not be the best course- superior practicioners can pull off **** near anything, especially on students they trust. BTW- this is not a slam- but a general observation on teachers and students. How do you guys handle a boxer fighting from a low crouch working hooks and uppercuts a la Smokin’ Joe? Inside seems a bad place to be with folks like that. A grappler trying to swim in?

Fighting closer- hmm, this I’d like to see. At what approximate distance for a 6’ person do you abandon fist/palm work for elbows when head on?

Closing the gap and lead legs- presenting a backside? What do you mean by this? How do you close the gap? We step with hips aimed at the other person, one leg coming forward with the intent of kicking.

I’ll agree Wing Chun works well against any style, but I’ve got a healthy respect for other approaches and would counter with this statement (based most dramatically on my experiences with floorwork)- the unexpected is the most dangerous attack. Even passing familiarity is far superior to ignorance, when it comes to making Wing Chun work.

Bigamy laws? When was I talking about marrige? Though looking at my married friends, marrige doesn’t seem to do anything but double your capabilites when it comes to hunting down something interesting to bring home on a Friday night. . .

:cool:

Andrew

44

Hey John,

We always close the gap and fight closer than other Wing Chun families that I’ve met, seen, touched, or corresponded with.

You guys seemed pretty in-line with the Chi Sao range I learned. I’ve also found many other WCK people seem to stay further away. Do you ever go to extreme close range? (Shoulder/Hip striking range) in your Chi Sao? We’ll flirt with that, and go back and forth between it and the usual range.

RR

45

Bigger/Smaller: It’s all Wing Chun

Originally posted by AndrewS
part of the point that I’m trying to make with this bigger/smaller thing is that if you’re taller and sit low to get under someone smaller who is already low, you may well compromise your body alignment and mobility relative to the smaller person, particularily if they are working from a dropped balanced center of gravity.

You make a very good point, and I thought I’d stated so previously, but I must be lacking something in my expressions of agreement. :smiley:
[B]

In working with smaller people, I used to be in the habit of dropping lower to deal with them. The past few years of working with my seniors I have been encouraged to avoid doing this, and to stand as tall as I can while still maintaining our idea of good structure. This is still sunk relative to drawing oneself up to full height, but gives me significant room to sink lower, either to absorb pressure or express power.
[/B]

I cannot argue with this. I must have been unclear. :frowning:
[B]

Being bigger and getting inside- here’s my experience- when I go in on smaller people, even from inside positions, they tend to get twisted across themselves and drop very easily, often after being folded down the middle T-ed off to me.
[/B]

I dunno if this is true across the board. Several of my seniors, including my sifu are smaller than me, and if you’re saying your smaller partners drop their hands or simply drop to the floor, then the people in question must have structural problems, including their horse and elbow position, and a lack of development of timing, sensitivity, and elbow energy. With proper structure, they should be able to keep you out, shouldn’t they, until you break their structure, but that shouldn’t be a given.
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Bigger guys it’s easier for me to wind up dead in front of them,
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You shouldn’t be caught dead being dead…Oh, wait, I guess I misread you at first. :smiley:
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playing their arms like being between the dummy arms, breaking their balance straight back. This may be my flaw, I dunno, but this is something I’m trying to figure out- handling relative differences.
[/B]

I think this sounds right to me as you say you are breaking their balance. It sounds as if you are able to uproot them, getting them on their heels, and using inside position to walk through them.
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Using Ken as an example on taking the inside may not be the best course- superior practicioners can pull off **** near anything, especially on students they trust. BTW- this is not a slam- but a general observation on teachers and students.
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We are all trying to emulate Ken in that what he does is what we’re striving to do. However his timing and sensitivity is matched only by his correct structure and phenomenal power, which he doesn’t use in chi sao, or we’d all be afraid to touch his hands. He demos his power only under controlled circumstances to limit the deaths and consequent lawsuits. :stuck_out_tongue:
[B]

How do you guys handle a boxer fighting from a low crouch working hooks and uppercuts a la Smokin’ Joe? Inside seems a bad place to be with folks like that. A grappler trying to swim in?
[/B]

Smokin’ Joe was awesome, wasn’t he? I’m not good at the hypothetical. I’d do basic Wing Chun, take the centerline, and with loss of contact, rush forward and hit. :smiley:
[B]

Fighting closer- hmm, this I’d like to see. At what approximate distance for a 6’ person do you abandon fist/palm work for elbows when head on?
[/B]

There is no set formula. There is only proper timing and sensitivity to the energy felt. We let our opponent in. They should feel no resistance until they are in our distance.
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Closing the gap and lead legs- presenting a backside? What do you mean by this? How do you close the gap? We step with hips aimed at the other person, one leg coming forward with the intent of kicking.
[/B]

We don’t do what you describe. We walk straight forward, looking at our opponent, anticipating his actions by sensitivity to his eyes’ tells. By extending one leg forward and stepping to close the gap, you expose the side of your body from which the leg is extended forward, and are also subject, especially prior to contact, to being unbalanced by certain attacks.
[B]

I’ll agree Wing Chun works well against any style, but I’ve got a healthy respect for other approaches and would counter with this statement (based most dramatically on my experiences with floorwork)- the unexpected is the most dangerous attack. Even passing familiarity is far superior to ignorance, when it comes to making Wing Chun work.
[/B]

Well said. However, I don’t need to practice the other approach; I just need to practice against it, right?
[B]

Bigamy laws? When was I talking about marrige? Though looking at my married friends, marrige doesn’t seem to do anything but double your capabilites when it comes to hunting down something interesting to bring home on a Friday night. . .
[/B]

Reminds me of the current movie, I Spy in which Owen Wilson’s character asks Eddie Murphy’s,“Does she have a sister?” and the reply is “What do you care? If she has a sister, it’ll just be the three of us.” I suspect that somehow, he has impure motives. :stuck_out_tongue:

Regards,

46

Flirting at Extreme Close Range? Only with the Girls!

Originally posted by reneritchie
You guys seemed pretty in-line with the Chi Sao range I learned. I’ve also found many other WCK people seem to stay further away. Do you ever go to extreme close range? (Shoulder/Hip striking range) in your Chi Sao? We’ll flirt with that, and go back and forth between it and the usual range.

Sorry I missed you when you were in Frisco. We don’t generally flirt with each other in Ben’s classes :p, but yes, we can and do go to extreme close range when called for, but we don’t ideally, ever go so extreme in range that we break contact.

What we want to do, is to have our opponent come in close before we drop the hammer, so there’s no escape, and we don’t have to chase him.

Often, shoulder or hip contact is useful as another way to strike when we find ourselves in position when are hands are not free. Was this what you meant? :slight_smile:

Regards,

47

Hi John,

back from some family matters. . .

The risen/sunk relative height thing- this is something I’ve thought about a lot, and, IMHO, the little guys have an advantage here (as do the truly huge), as they tend to have to learn to deal with only one set of proportions- bigger than them. People in between midget sized and giant, will have to adapt to deal with both those bigger and those smaller. I really don’t try to do things differently with different sized folks- but I’ve noticed different results occur, and some things seem to happen with greater ease to bigger folks, some to smaller, if that makes sense. Bundles of fast twitch fiber and aggression are more succeptable to soft and sneaky routes to control, than big tense guys, for whom shocks seem to work more nicely. Just some thoughts.

Taking apart smaller people- yeah, my point is basically that when I’m better, they seem to crumple differently from the bigger guys.

Smokin’ Joe- Nice drill- have someone cover, bob, weave, and push, try to stay balanced while you try to continuously hit (but only landing lightly) and control- much like Frazier’s game. This puts you at a disadvantage, but is a great way to get some feel, and is a nice first stage to just letting someone throw random boxing attacks from clinch range. FWIW- the inelegant, but effective solution I like is to let the weave go to the outside, trade gum and kao to keep them there, using strikes to keep the head and torso down, combined with the pressing action of forward pressure to drive them into/over something solid. This is definitely a bit of a brute force solution- not the ideal, but it’s d*mn practical.

Closing the gap and walking straight forward- so you close staying in character two/goat clamping? How do you find stepping forward with a lead leg to expose the stepping side of the body- the leg goes out unweighted and covers the back leg, the body stays erect and square, with a fair bit of ability to rotate on the central axis, hand positioning is unchanged? Being unbalanced by certain attacks? If you put weight forward or you hip is stiff, sweeps are definitely a danger. Is that what you mean?

Practicing the other approach vs. practicing against it- the bottom line is that the better a group is at giving attacks from outside the system well, the better they will be at solving them. A little work on a decent jab or shoot makes your Wing Chun better, as now you have people who can give you a better, smarter attack. Best is to work with folks with good experience in other arts, but learning something about those arts and giving them the credit they’re due is an excellent step to building students who can deal with them.

Take it easy,

Andrew