What's the opinion on Randy Williams?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
21

eh?

Why o why o why do people keep going on about videos? the wsl one was terrible, it just gets worse and worse from there…

Training in the Kwoon is the only real way to learn, but, like you CrimsonKing, I live in the UK and so probably won’t have the chance to meet Fong Sifu or Leung Sifu or any other big names. Videos are a good way (not the best way), and perhaps the only way for people like me to see what others have to offer.

I train three times a week, practise my forms at home, and occasionally slap in a video. I was given a video from ‘Nat from UK’ recently that had some HK footage of Pa Fa Lein (Sp?) Wing Chun. Great stuff. I can’t afford to fly to Hong Kong and I can’t speak Cantonese… so the Video was a real eye-opener.

What didn’t you like about the WSL footage?

22

Originally posted by IronFist
Ten replies, two of which are mine, and none of them answered my question :smiley: Thanks.

The answers you got are of greater service than the answer you want.

23

KJ is correct, as is becoming custom, that you can’t learn much from tape, IMHO for the following reasons:

  1. Much of WCK is not visible. Much of it is personal and involves the mastery of very small mechanics. In arts like WCK, what takes the work are things like learning the body alignment when standing, then how to maintain it while turning and stepping, then how to destory and create it within yourself as needed, then how to use it for defense and offense. This needs to be interactively and expertly corrected, almost like a doctor needs to be with you to diagnose you properly. If you develop this personal attainment, perhaps a video could help you but:

  2. There are no good WCK videos. WCK videos are almost always wasted on stylistic choreography and cookie cutter “application”. They are divided by form rather than phase, and show application for movement rather than movement for application, and seldom include the actual WCK core of reflexive conditioning, error correction, and overal tactical strategy.

It’s hard enough to find good stuff in real life, so it stands to reason it would be harder still on tape.

RR

24

Rene

So what ya saying, you’re not planning on releasing your own set of vids? :smiley:

25

B&B - I do not have the ability to create videos I would consider worthwhile, thus I am not.

26

Originally posted by reneritchie
B&B - I do not have the ability to create videos I would consider worthwhile, thus I am not.

You wouldn’t have said that when you were single. :smiley:

27

OJ

What about the tape your sifu is selling?
Are they promotionnal tools for his school or learning tools for those who don’t show up for classes

Randy is a smart man…don’t you think

28

palanka…

My Sifu is the first to say that learning Wing Chun properly from tapes without direct guidance is very difficult to say the least. His tape is more a practical reference for already active practitioners who can use their experience to use the informations contained in it.

It is also sold at a very low price witch put it out of the money making machine category.

It’s a very unique and different tape.Get one!

Sure,Randy is very smart,why not?..Good business man!

29

If this thread has turned into “which tapes are good?”, then I would like to recommend the Pan Nam series, because:

  1. It’s cheap.
  2. The production quality is high.
  3. It’s a unique interpretation of Wing Chun.

What more can you ask of a video?

IIRC, Randy said himself on one of his tapes, “you can’t learn much from a tape…”. You can call him many things, but don’t call him dishonest. :slight_smile:

30

Re: palanka…

[QUOTE]Originally posted by old jong
[B]My Sifu is the first to say that learning Wing Chun properly from tapes without direct guidance is very difficult to say the least. His tape is more a practical reference for already active practitioners who can use their experience to use the informations contained in it.

Same goes for Randy’s tapes no?

It is also sold at a very low price witch put it out of the money making machine category.

I agree

It’s a very unique and different tape.Get one!

Humm, don’t take it personnaly but if I have to get tapes from the Fong’s lineage, I’d buy the ones made by your sigung, but they are too much expensive $$$$

Sure,Randy is very smart,why not?..Good business man!

Your sigung is also a good business man, his tapes are sold in Inside KF like the ones produced by Randy

Where there is business… ;o)

31

Don’t Waste My Time or Treasure

Originally posted by palanka
[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by old jong
My Sifu is the first to say that learning Wing Chun properly from tapes without direct guidance is very difficult to say the least. His tape is more a practical reference for already active practitioners who can use their experience to use the informations contained in it.

The way the post and response is run together, I can’t understand who is saying what. :confused:
[B]

Same goes for Randy’s tapes no?

It is also sold at a very low price witch put it out of the money making machine category.

I agree

It’s a very unique and different tape.Get one!

Humm, don’t take it personnaly but if I have to get tapes from the Fong’s lineage, I’d buy the ones made by your sigung, but they are too much expensive $$$$

Sure,Randy is very smart,why not?..Good business man!

Your sigung is also a good business man, his tapes are sold in Inside KF like the ones produced by Randy

Where there is business… ;o) [/B]

A point that’s been missed is that even if a tape is priced at zero, if there is misleading or misinformed content, and the consumer is mislead, then it will waste his time, which in this day and age, is the most important commodity.

Regards,

32

Give yourself 20 years at least?

Wing Chun, the style that was created to be mastered in a short period of time. If it takes you 20 years to become a good wing chun practitioner, if you are not able to use it successfully after 5, YOU SIMPLY SUCK!
TRY A DIFFERENT STYLE!

33

Re: Give yourself 20 years at least?

Originally posted by Clint
Wing Chun, the style that was created to be mastered in a short period of time. If it takes you 20 years to become a good wing chun practitioner, if you are not able to use it successfully after 5, YOU SIMPLY SUCK!
TRY A DIFFERENT STYLE!

I don’t know the truth of your first statement. I doubt it, but that’s a matter of historical discussion.

However, I doubt also that Wing Chun can be mastered, whatever that means, in a short period of time. Perhaps, as an educator thinks of subject mastery, five years might be enough to get acquainted with much of it, but truly good skill takes much, much longer. To use it “successfully” does not require mastery.

FWIW, I have touched hands with many 20 plus year students and teachers and speak from this experience. I’ve found that my Wing Chun is better than some, whcih is surprising, but not as good as others, especially those in my lineage, which I find unsurprising.

I have only five years of Wing Chun experience, and in my own humble regard, my Wing Chun is still “sucky” because the mountain I attempt to climb is tall and steep.

Some reach a plateau and think they’ve arrived. If one is satisfied with that, then that’s fine for them. I don’t envision that I will ever be at the top of the Wing Chun mountain, no matter high high I climb.

If one believes Wing Chun can be mastered in five years, then I’d suggest they may be in a sucky school, since in any genuine lingeage, the teachers have studied and learned for many years longer from a teacher who has done so, and can show his/her connection to a good historical source; e.g. Yip Man. Sure, one can fight sooner or later with Wing Chun, but that doesn’t equate to mastery in terms of kung fu. A good Wing Chun person will be a good fighter, but a good fighter does not necessarily know Wing Chun.

Mm yan chi dai.

Regards,

34

Bla Bla Bla!!!

Wing chun, developed in the temple, back in the day, when wushu styles took like 20 years to master (and still do). One monk said to the other “Hey we need a style of fighting that will match any other style, but can be learned, well, in about a 4rth of the time.” Hence, wing chun! All the best, most useful/practical techniques in one logical, yet simple style. Makes sense, no more waiting till we are 35 or 40 years old, just to learn a complete style. As for you, I am sure you are good! Sure, there will always be more to learn, but thats with everything in life. One can study wing chun under the same sifu for 20 years, another for only five, yet the five year person is better, this simply means the 5 year person is naturally better. This is just life! There is always someone better. I can play basketball for 50 years, but I will never defeat Michael Jordan. He is just better at it than I am at basketball. SKILLS! It should not take one 20 years to learn the principles and techniques of wing chun, no one will ever learn every single combination of techniques, it is endless! No point in worrying about it, you can still be **** good!

35

Ok, Clint Wins Me Over a Little

Originally posted by Clint
Wing chun, developed in the temple, back in the day, when wushu styles took like 20 years to master (and still do). One monk said to the other “Hey we need a style of fighting that will match any other style, but can be learned, well, in about a 4rth of the time.” Hence, wing chun! All the best, most useful/practical techniques in one logical, yet simple style. Makes sense, no more waiting till we are 35 or 40 years old, just to learn a complete style.

Hi Clint,

You are correct in that much can be learned in a relatively short time. You are also correct that some teachers draw out the learning period for the little they know. Obviously, they have several motivations for doing so: a continued revenue stream, the keeping of “secrets” in the kwoon, ego, etc. If you are referring to that type of instruction, then I am totally in agreement that the students are being held back. In fact, I would be afraid of the quality of such instruction. Why wouldn’t the unethical teacher just keep making up “new” training for the gullible, passing out pseudo ranks and titles, making sifus out of monkeys?
[B]

As for you, I am sure you are good!
[/B]

Are you speaking to me? I’m not good; it has been repeatedly established, I’m evil. :smiley: But, it was nice of you to pretend to grant me credibility. :smiley:
[B]

Sure, there will always be more to learn, but thats with everything in life. One can study wing chun under the same sifu for 20 years, another for only five, yet the five year person is better, this simply means the 5 year person is naturally better.
[/B]

I must disagree with this assumption. Wing Chun is a scientific art, based on prinicples that any person can learn–big, small, smart, stupid, (Ok, smart helps!), athletic, nonathletic. The subtleties of the art are mind boggling. Hard work, dedication, and persistence make the successful student.
[B]

This is just life! There is always someone better. I can play basketball for 50 years, but I will never defeat Michael Jordan.
[/B]

What a nightmare he would be if he learned Wing Chun. :stuck_out_tongue: But, naturally advantaged athletes don’t seem to often have the patience for kung fu. :frowning:
[B]

He is just better at it than I am at basketball. SKILLS! It should not take one 20 years to learn the principles and techniques of wing chun, no one will ever learn every single combination of techniques, it is endless! No point in worrying about it, you can still be **** good! [/B]

I don’t study technique driven Wing Chun. Most Wing Chun schools teach flowery hands. Wong Shun Leung said: “Don’t just play with hands.” I seek to learn a strong horse, position, sensitivity, and timing with the speed and power that comes with perfect practice.

Regards,

36

Cool!

I will agree with that, pretty much! I do agree that anyone can learn wing chun, however, I also think certain people are just naturally better. Practice is essential! That is true. Oh, and I am sure you are good wing chun practitioner, maybe not as good as you want to be, yet, but you can still be good without being on that William Cheung level.