What to do about "tension"?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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We all know the feeling. Doing chi-sau or sparring with someone we know, someone we are confident that we can handle. Relaxed, fluid, elastic… in the WC “zone” and looking great. Then someone superior steps in and starts to pour it on and we immediately tense-up, our skill level plummets and we look like crap.

On another thread, another poster commented on this happening to Kevin in a clip showing him working with his instructor Philipp Bayer. The poster pointed out the Kevin was visibly tense in the clip. Kevin responded:

Of course I was !! Lmao , it’s what speed and power suddenly shot at you does. He deliberately does this for demonstration and teaching. Humans ( me included ) overreact to sudden lines of attack.

Good response. As he said, “Humans …overreact to sudden lines of attack.” My question is, can we ever train to the point when we can stay loose, relaxed and fluid enough to apply good WC when we face those “sudden, violent lines of attack”, coming from a larger, physically intimidating stranger …i.e. an assault or mugging on the street. Or must we hope to get by using whatever is left of our skill when we are tense and soaked with adrenalin?

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it is all about samadhi power.

that is the reason one has to know and learn how to switch into coherence state.
One has to train how easy to enter coherence state as needed and how long one can state in that state.

Bottom line is, can one has a handling on the basic three core elements of slt , body, mind, and breathing. And how good.

Aiding by the Qi, force, and momentum three elements handling.

[QUOTE=Grumblegeezer;1242012]We all know the feeling. Doing chi-sau or sparring with someone we know, someone we are confident that we can handle. Relaxed, fluid, elastic… in the WC “zone” and looking great. Then someone superior steps in and starts to pour it on and we immediately tense-up, our skill level plummets and we look like crap.

On another thread, another poster commented on this happening to Kevin in a clip showing him working with his instructor Philipp Bayer. The poster pointed out the Kevin was visibly tense in the clip. Kevin responded:

Of course I was !! Lmao , it’s what speed and power suddenly shot at you does. He deliberately does this for demonstration and teaching. Humans ( me included ) overreact to sudden lines of attack.

Good response. As he said, “Humans …overreact to sudden lines of attack.” My question is, can we ever train to the point when we can stay loose, relaxed and fluid enough to apply good WC when we face those “sudden, violent lines of attack”, coming from a larger, physically intimidating stranger …i.e. an assault or mugging on the street. Or must we hope to get by using whatever is left of our skill when we are tense and soaked with adrenalin?[/QUOTE]

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[QUOTE=Hendrik;1242014]it is all about samadhi power.

that is the reason one has to know and learn how to switch into coherence state.
One has to train how easy to enter coherence state as needed and how long one can state in that state.

Bottom line is, can one has a handling on the basic three core elements of slt , body, mind, and breathing. And how good.[/QUOTE]

Lmao ! Funny guy ; )

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Get a biofeedback machine, read your own reading to see is it funny or is it real.

[QUOTE=k gledhill;1242015]Lmao ! Funny guy ; )[/QUOTE]

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[QUOTE=k gledhill;1242015]Lmao ! Funny guy ; )[/QUOTE]

Hendrik’s approach (biofeedback machine etc) is different–

However, in the softer arts- wing chun and taiji maintaining the right balance of tension and relaxation and mastering control over adrenaline flow. Reacting and tensing to an unexpected
line of force are different things.

As is often the case I don’t expect KG to agree with me.

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[QUOTE=Grumblegeezer;1242012]My question is, can we ever train to the point when we can stay loose, relaxed and fluid enough to apply good WC when we face those “sudden, violent lines of attack”, coming from a larger, physically intimidating stranger …i.e. an assault or mugging on the street. Or must we hope to get by using whatever is left of our skill when we are tense and soaked with adrenalin?[/QUOTE]

It’s a good question, Grumblegeezer. :slight_smile:

The key word is “stranger”. I don’t believe you can ever ‘fully’ negate the effects of an adrenaline rush in a real, life-threatening event. Only continued experience of being under pressure can help you cope.

But this is what surprised me about Kevin’s clip with PB. And I say this with no disrespect to Kevin, honestly.

WC/VT/WT training teaches you how to deal with speed and power, particularly how to dissipate power. It all comes back to the notion of bridging and what we train Chi Sau and Lat Sau for. You have to play hard, of course, and I am sure the PB guys do.

However, in a class setting with an instructor, there is far less reason to be tense. It is a training environment, and even if you train hard and with power, even if you go at full speed - you learn to overcome the fear of the hit. Even if you do get hit sometimes and it hurts like f*ck. :slight_smile:

Your instructor is never going to kill you (one hopes) :smiley:

We all tense up, but I was surprised by Kevin’s clip as he not only teaches, but has also had 40+ real encounters on the street (encounters where there was surely very real intent to harm).

In the clip they are working a response drill only. I expected to see PB dominating (he’s obviously really very good), but not dominating to that extent, and not because Kevin became tense when the power and speed was turned on in a friendly setting.

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When you deal with incoming force, unless you are going to move your body out of the striking path, if you are going to meet your body with your opponent’s body, you will need “structure”. Your structure can prevent your body from crashing by force. When you do that, you may look relaxe from outside but you are not relax from inside. Whether that outside relax appearance is important or not, it’s just an appearance, no more and no less.

Try to let your opponent to bend your arm. Can you keep yourself relax there? You can’t. Even if you may not use force to against your opponent’s bending force, you still need to extend your arm (like water flow through pipe) to remain your structure. You are not and you should not relax at that particular moment.

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[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1242023]Whether that outside relax appearance is important or not, it’s just an appearance, no more and no less.[/QUOTE]

I took the original question to mean tension in a physical sense, rather than in appearance. As in, your muscles tense, your movements become broken, disjointed, slower, etc.

[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1242023]Try to let your opponent to bend your arm. Can you keep yourself relax there? You can’t. Even if you may not use force to against your opponent’s bending force, you still need to extend your arm (like water flow through pipe) to remain your structure. You are not and you should not relax at that particular moment.[/QUOTE]

What do you mean when you say “let your opponent bend your arm”? Do you mean bend it against the range of a joint, as in a lock?

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[QUOTE=Grumblegeezer;1242012]My question is, can we ever train to the point when we can stay loose, relaxed and fluid enough to apply good WC when we face those “sudden, violent lines of attack”, coming from a larger, physically intimidating stranger …i.e. an assault or mugging on the street. Or must we hope to get by using whatever is left of our skill when we are tense and soaked with adrenalin?[/QUOTE]

I think that as martial artists we should be able to cope with both scenarios here. And fme there are very Wing Chun specific ways to train this too. I would recommend actually knowing your Chum Kiu inside and out :wink:

On the other hand… there is a phenomenon in Wing Chun I have seen where people become complacent by actually doing far far too much Chisau (or what I would call interactive training) incorrectly, and this is something that the PB guys here rain on about all the time which I support to an extent because I do believe WSL was onto something in the way he taught his interactions. It’s about skill levels really and when you surround yourself with lower level players it is easy to start thinking you are invincible and it only takes a millisecond for your Sifu to redirect you and remind you that you still have much to learn.

Leads nicely onto my other idea I call the ‘Sifu Syndrome’ which I can say I am cursed with too. I relish in the opportunity to try out new stuff and go harder and faster in training with my kung fu brothers, but when I step in front of my Sifu he can always gain the upper hand and make me feel like a beginner again, sometimes in the most freaky and off the wall ways! This is what I feel happened to Kevin in his clip and it’s nothing at all anyone should have to defend or make excuses for.

Like he also suggests, we are only human after all.

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[QUOTE=BPWT;1242028]I took the original question to mean tension in a physical sense, rather than in appearance. As in, your muscles tense, your movements become broken, disjointed, slower, etc.

What do you mean when you say “let your opponent bend your arm”? Do you mean bend it against the range of a joint, as in a lock?[/QUOTE]

To me, the reason that you want to tense is to unify your body as one unit. It’s the opposite of the “broken”, “disjointed”. It’s like to “stretch” your body outward.

You keep your arm straight. Your opponent tries to bend your arm. You can do 2 things here.

  1. bend your arm to the opposite direction as your opponent tries to bend your arm.
  2. keep your arm straight by “stretching” your arm outward.

If you use the

  • 1st approach, your opponent can borrow your resistence force, reverse his force vector, and bend your arm to the opposite direction.
  • 2nd approach, your opponent will be harder to borrow your force and bend your arm in either direction.

So to me, tense is like to “stretch” in order to achieve body unification. You try to expand your body otward to resist the incoming force.

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What to do about " tension "?

[QUOTE=Grumblegeezer;1242012]We all know the feeling. Doing chi-sau or sparring with someone we know, someone we are confident that we can handle. Relaxed, fluid, elastic… in the WC “zone” and looking great. Then someone superior steps in and starts to pour it on and we immediately tense-up, our skill level plummets and we look like crap.

On another thread, another poster commented on this happening to Kevin in a clip showing him working with his instructor Philipp Bayer. The poster pointed out the Kevin was visibly tense in the clip. Kevin responded:

Of course I was !! Lmao , it’s what speed and power suddenly shot at you does. He deliberately does this for demonstration and teaching. Humans ( me included ) overreact to sudden lines of attack.

Good response. As he said, “Humans …overreact to sudden lines of attack.” My question is, can we ever train to the point when we can stay loose, relaxed and fluid enough to apply good WC when we face those “sudden, violent lines of attack”, coming from a larger, physically intimidating stranger …i.e. an assault or mugging on the street. Or must we hope to get by using whatever is left of our skill when we are tense and soaked with adrenalin?[/QUOTE]

It happens to all of us , the main thing is to stay control over yourself , and you show that superior person what you can do too . The person who is intimidating you , is inturn intimidated by you too . So that ’ s why he ’ s showing you what he can do , against you , so you do the samething against him . This is the moment where you find out how good you are in your wing chun training . So just keep on training .
Always going to get people better than all of us , so the best thing to do is to keep on training .

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tensing is a natural reaction any time the body is taken by surprise or exposed to a stimulus that is beyond our ability to respond to comfortably. The fight against tension is a continuing battle and the degrees of tension being experienced get smaller and smaller and more fleeting as training progresses. The best way of making progress that I’ve found is to chi sau with someone better than you and to not try to stop them from hitting you, simply allow it to happen smile and carry on. After a while your subconcious gets used to the fact that the hits don’t really hurt you and gets used to the speed, power, angles etc Thereafter when you go back to responding you can move more freely, stay more relaxed and deal with things more competently. Obviously improvement is incremental and not an overnight miracle and the technique does require you to leave your ego at the door

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Requires drunken Master mindset, no more, no less. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zui_Quan

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Personally I have too much bottled up rage to worry about tension, that is where a bottle of Merlot comes in handy for working out the kinks :smiley: while working out.

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[QUOTE=BPWT;1242021]
However, in a class setting with an instructor, there is far less reason to be tense. It is a training environment, and even if you train hard and with power, even if you go at full speed - you learn to overcome the fear of the hit. Even if you do get hit sometimes and it hurts like f*ck. :slight_smile:

Your instructor is never going to kill you (one hopes) :smiley:

We all tense up, but I was surprised by Kevin’s clip as he not only teaches, but has also had 40+ real encounters on the street (encounters where there was surely very real intent to harm).
.[/QUOTE]

I’d agree that training with a sifu leaves no fear of being killed, but that doesn’t remove reason to be tense. While knowing he wont be killed or severely injured, one can still train with his/her sifu while having a strong desire not to be hit. I actually think its very natural in a sense, any time I touch hands with my sifu, I want to show an improvement.

Also, I think it takes on a different level than a street fight in it’s own way. Unlike some random guy I meet on the street, my sifu knows more about “how I work,” after all, he taught me most or at least a significant part of what I know and use. This gives an extra edge in knowing how to make the student uncomfortable in what’s happening.

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[QUOTE=EternalSpring;1242111]I’d agree that training with a sifu leaves no fear of being killed, but that doesn’t remove reason to be tense. While knowing he wont be killed or severely injured, one can still train with his/her sifu while having a strong desire not to be hit. I actually think its very natural in a sense, any time I touch hands with my sifu, I want to show an improvement.

Also, I think it takes on a different level than a street fight in it’s own way. Unlike some random guy I meet on the street, my sifu knows more about “how I work,” after all, he taught me most or at least a significant part of what I know and use. This gives an extra edge in knowing how to make the student uncomfortable in what’s happening.[/QUOTE]

Absolutely! There is always ‘the desire not to be hit’, and that leads to a fear of being hit. For me, it is one of the most important things you need to overcome. If a person has this fear, they tend to be tense when attacked but also become too apprehensive when they attack - leading to more tension when their attack is stopped or countered.

That’s why training must involve being hit - you have to get used to taking a few shots (in all aspects of training with a partner). The advantage we have of training in a group is that the environment is controlled - no one is really trying to seriously injure anyone. So it’s the first step in letting go of that fear.

In my lineage we have this saying: “First, give up your own strength.”

You are told this when you first start learning SNT, but the lesson is valid for any stage of learning the system. Regarding the first form, it is about not keeping tension in the muscles - or to be more accurate, only use the muscles you need to use, and try to let the others relax.

For example, with a punch you need to use muscles to move the arm (it’s a deep idea, I know :D), but you want to keep the arm relaxed (to get the power out, and to allow the arm to be more reactive to change if it encounters a problem/obstacle). So you need to understand how to do this - how to power a movement without doing what people often do naturally - tense up/use muscles they don’t always need to be using.

If you can do this (letting go of your own strength), combined with dampening down the fear of getting hit, you should be able to engage in a way where you can deal with power and speed better than if you were tense and nervous/apprehensive.

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[QUOTE=Grumblegeezer;1242012]We all know the feeling. Doing chi-sau or sparring with someone we know, someone we are confident that we can handle. Relaxed, fluid, elastic… in the WC “zone” and looking great. Then someone superior steps in and starts to pour it on and we immediately tense-up, our skill level plummets and we look like crap.

On another thread, another poster commented on this happening to Kevin in a clip showing him working with his instructor Philipp Bayer. The poster pointed out the Kevin was visibly tense in the clip. Kevin responded:

Of course I was !! Lmao , it’s what speed and power suddenly shot at you does. He deliberately does this for demonstration and teaching. Humans ( me included ) overreact to sudden lines of attack.

Good response. As he said, “Humans …overreact to sudden lines of attack.” My question is, can we ever train to the point when we can stay loose, relaxed and fluid enough to apply good WC when we face those “sudden, violent lines of attack”, coming from a larger, physically intimidating stranger …i.e. an assault or mugging on the street. Or must we hope to get by using whatever is left of our skill when we are tense and soaked with adrenalin?[/QUOTE]

I think to answer your question you need to look at where tension comes from and why you tense in the first place. It is a natural thing and happens when we are confronted by the unfamiliar or become overwhelmed.

The first sign of a beginner boxer or any martial artist or that matter is to see if they get tired when they spar. Why? Because that tiredness is the indicator that they are not familiar with the sparring so they do not relax and use tons more energy than a skilled fighter. That’s why when I hear people say wing chun is about being efficient I chuckle since that efficiency only comes from so much practice that it is old hat familiar to you.

If you are tense and soaked with adrenalin you will lose your skill. As a cop I see this happen to me and to other LEOs. You have to train so that it really is just another day at the office.

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On the lounge, football on, by myself and a six pack of beer…

No tension…

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[QUOTE=GlennR;1242154]On the lounge, football on, by myself and a six pack of beer…

No tension…[/QUOTE]

I bow before your wisdom!

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[QUOTE=GlennR;1242154]On the lounge, football on, by myself and a six pack of beer…
no tension…[/QUOTE]

Don’t mind if I put an different spin on what you said:

"On my king size bed, soft music on, pretty girl by my side and a bottle of fine wine …

no tension … no (insert ideas) … no game.";):stuck_out_tongue: