What is WCK?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
61

Hey Jeremy,

Enjoyable post, as usual.

Einstein might have changed the universe, only something outside of it would know for sure. The universe might change all the time, as part of it, we really wouldn’t know.

By way of analogy, there is such a book as “The Tao of Pooh” discussing the nature of Taoism through the medium of a storybook bear’s actions - but this does not mean that A.A. Milne was thinking of Taoism when he wrote the original stories.

This was what i was trying to say a long time ago WRT WCK and Buddhism (that Buddhism might be used to discuss WCK, but that this does not mean the developers of WCK were thinking of Buddhism). I’ll have to keep an eye out for the Tao of Pooh.

62

However history may point to the answer.

Rene,

<quote> This was what i was trying to say a long time ago WRT WCK and Buddhism (that Buddhism might be used to discuss WCK, but that this does not mean the developers of WCK were thinking of Buddhism). I’ll have to keep an eye out for the Tao of Pooh.

— This then brings us back to subject of history. It is clear for some as to if the “devlelopers had buddism in mind”. This being evident by the historical paths.Of course some disagree and will nomatter what is placed before them. however To keep things P.C. not going down the history road I can only only say that there are a few WCK lineages that have Buddhism at their very core as a matter of fact the practice of these lineages material can be simply put as a form of Buddhist meditation. I find this to be quite fascinating and enriching to the spirit as I learn more. These lesson add just another facet and demention to the practice of Martial arts. I hope others get the opertunity to experience this as well. If you have not exprience this I hope you will with more insite.

Sifu Chango Noaks

63

This is the Lit-Crit corner, so I’d thought it’d be thoughtful to supply a link for free acrobat e-books.

There one will find Art of War, Dhammapadda, Buddhist writings, Tao Te Ching, Book of Five Rings, Kahlil Gibran, Clauswitz’s On War [for equal time], some Einstein and physics works… but NO Tao of Pooh, sorry.

Everybody should at least be on the same page. :wink: :stuck_out_tongue:

64

Thank you for this most enlightening link, Zim!

Regards,

65

NTC,

–> in general, I will agree with you on this, because the discussed philosophy of war is definitely used by martial artists who have a good solid foundation of the art of war, like most of us here.

However, there will be some people who are not into/ignore the philosophical aspects of this and who focus ONLY/MAINLY on how defeat/maim/hurt the opponent.

Regarding these people, I will disagree with you that it is beyond ANYONE’S opinion, because this group of people will have the opinion that Sun Tzu does not exist. Period. Regarding Sun Tzu in WCK, since his works pertain to martial arts in general, and WCK being one of the arts, it would definitely have a belonging there.—NTC

You certainly welcome to disagree with me.

As for the people who are not into/ignore the philosophical aspects…

Say, the “Gum Tau Gutt Mai” (he presses your head you lift your tail).
people doesn’t have to know where the philosophy of it is from however they practice it. Right?

Look at this,

— Now the shuai-jan is a snake that is found
in the ChUng mountains. Strike at its head, and you
will be attacked by its tail; strike at its tail, and you
will be attacked by its head; strike at its middle,
and you will be attacked by head and tail both.— Sun Tzu

So, it is not about discussion of philosophy or not. it is there. even if some choose to ignore it, the idea is there 2500 years ago right?

Now, when asking the question WHAT IS WCK?

we have to look into where all these things are from.

and we cannot deny the Sun Tzu’s influence on WCK either if one discuss or not discuss philosophy right?

–> Remember that NOT everyone in China was in the military or belonged to the government.

For those in the government, the way how the emperors rules was via intimidation and fear… if you obey, you will be ok, if not, then beware. Pretty much the same that happened in Iraq.

However, there were also a lot of people who were not in the government. I am sure most everyone in this thread have read about uprising against the emperors and governors in olden days China… these are definitely NOT yes-man. —NTC

How many years the Emperor dictatorship system rule China?
Thousand of years right? people are condition sutlely after thousand of years of living under those environment.

Be in Goverment or not,
How many dare to even to cut thier pigs tail and lost thier head in Qing Dynasty?

There sure were some Royal Officias who speak the truth, but very rare . As can be read in the history.

I pray the one who stand infront of the array of tanks. But where is he now?

–> My point was raised not out of confrontation purposes, but to indicate that unless it is clear whether a point you made is your own interpretation or an actual fact supported by evidence, you will very likely stir up a possible controversy and challenges by others in a negative way. -NTC

Do you think the American landed in Moon is one’s interpretation?

There are still some older people don’t believe in the American had landed in Moon while in the Moon cake featival.
So, how do you stop the possible controversy and challenges by these people in a negative way?

–> I agree and disagree with you. However one thing is clear, there are people on this thread and elsewhere who are somewhat uncomfortable with some of your posts, and maybe all it takes is some clarification and everything will be ok.

Good communication is not easy, and it does not take much to mis-communicate. Some form of clarification is always never too many and is oftentimes welcome to promote clear, precise communication. -NTC

There certainly always others who will feel uncomfortable with the fact that the American Landed on moon. Some because they have fantasy. Some because they pray to the Moon Goddess and there goes their believe system. Some will worried that they will no longer sell thier moon cake. Every one will have a reason right?

I agree with you communication is difficult.
And it is even more difficult to those who pray to the Moon Goddess disregard how clear one see on tv the video clip of Apolo 11’s landing.

—>Well, the same should hold true for everyone, including yourself and myself. Like you said as well, everyone has his/her own opinion, and we should respect that. If there is something you don’t buy into, you can always leave it out. If you have something worth discussing, table it.

However, things are different when you try to (or appear to try to) make a point that is THE correct point. --NTC

May be next time you want to come with me, to explain about the American has landed on the moon decade ago; so that those old aunties will not accuse me on making THE correct point. or calling me smart axx :smiley:

That is when things get stirred up. I personally don’t take an interest in your background at all… I like reading some of your posts.

But I can definitely see how some of the posts can come across to you trying to show that you are the one with the correct answers.

And based on our discussion, it seems like this is far from the truth, in which case, it won’t hurt to just add some form of clarification. —NTC

Communication needs some basic understanding and a patient to listern. without that it is difficult.

WCK is a very difficult subject.

Hopefully, people understand somedays that the attainment of
Åéµý is the key. without ¤¤¤ß«ä¸ô or ¤ßªk. attainment is next to impossible . No to mention if there is Nam Yin Bak Chek. Using the trafic rule of south for the North. that is a kiss of death.

You know, in Chan. One force the heck out of the followers that is called ¹G¤H¹G¹Ò. without that how can the next generation be great is it said.

66

Levi,

Great post.

Jeremy,

One can make assumption, have perfect arguement setting with one’s own logic, to conclude on how a white horse is not a horse right?

As for " (Saam Mo Kiu) - which has been discussed to death on this form and gone nowhere. You refuse to accept any proofs except those you deem worthy ?"

Following your logic pattern: ( hope you don’t mind. )

since there is no factual evident that Yat Chan exist thus everything come after based on him Such as SAM MO KIU doesn’t exist, right?

since there is no factual evident that Tan Sau Ng doing WCK thus everything come after based on Tan Sau Ng such as SAM MO KIU doesnt exist , Right?

How can you prove with Factual evidents that the term Saam MO Kiu is not an invention of modern time?

You know, I don’t like these type of Logic because it doesn’t seem to be right. So, well, ignore all the above logical derivation according to your logical pattern.

Back to the topic.

So what is the philosophy of WCK according to you?

67

Hey Rene,

So what is your philosophy of WCK?

As for TaijIChun is TaiJi?

hahahhaa. every one get the same question.

68

Re: However history may point to the answer.

Originally posted by Chango
[B]Rene,

<quote>
— This then brings us back to subject of history.

It is clear for some as to if the “devlelopers had buddism in mind”.

This being evident by the historical paths.

Of course some disagree and will nomatter what is placed before them.

however To keep things P.C. not going down the history road I can only only say that there are a few WCK lineages that have Buddhism at their very core as a matter of fact the practice of these lineages material can be simply put as a form of Buddhist meditation.

I find this to be quite fascinating and enriching to the spirit as I learn more. These lesson add just another facet and demention to the practice of Martial arts. I hope others get the opertunity to experience this as well. If you have not exprience this I hope you will with more insite.

Sifu Chango Noaks [/B]

So for you what is WCK’s philosophy ?

69

Reality…

The “What is the philosophy of WCK?” is such a broad question to ask to such a broad audience here. It is really dependant on what lineage is being addressed. In this case, Hendrik is actually asking for every lineage’s philosophy - in which case there is not one correct or incorrect answer. Why? There are over a dozen well known lineages out there, and each generation in each family may have their own philosophy regarding what they were taught. Others are quite clear of what the philosophy of their WCK is all the way back to their origins. Hendrik seems to be asking for a specific “blanket” answer to all WCK when there is not (pointing back to our diversity).

There are some schools whose only focus is on the teaching of techniques and methods. There are schools out there only teaching techniques and nothing else. There are even schools out there who don’t even teach the Why’s and How’s or What’s to what they teach. So to ask the original question of “What is WCK?” or even “What is the philosophy of WCK” is either:

  1. bait to brag about his own perceived ‘WCK’, or

  2. an honest question pointing to the fact that he doesn’t know his own material.

While there are people out there searching for answers in other styles to the questions they have of their own WCK, there are also people out there who understand the WCK they study and live. Those are the ones who understand their WCK inside and out. There is no other way around it, and that is what we must face.

70

focus

NTC
welcome to my world excellent post wish I could say the same about some of the replies you have received.
The last 2 pages have all been very well thought out and presented with uncommon clarity not usually seen on these pages well done to all those participating.

Savi, Exactly as I pointed out earlier hendrik has now changed the question in an attempt to rescue himself from the limb he now hangs from.

What is WCK?
this does not =
So for you what is WCK’s philosophy ?
Once again you have lost focus in a thread you started.

71

Re: Reality…

There is a story about a father trying to force his young son to go for hair cutting.

So, instead of the father asking the son — Do you want to cut your hair.

The father said, " Do you want uncle or auntie to cut your hair? "

Those mis-leading Technics in arquement is great.

However, it is just an arguement trick.
In addition, There sure lots and lots of tricks.

some such as :
trying to pick everything apart, using wild logic, and provide false conclusion…bombard one with different attack from lots of others… to over flow and to force the other party into control…

Win with those tricks only shows one knows the trick. Lost to it doesnt mean anything about knowing the topic of discussion or not.

I am not going to cut my hair. So don’t ask me I would like Uncle or Auntie to cut my hair. :smiley:

What’s new under the Sun (Tzu)? None.
As it said, before Sun Tzu Sun Tzu, after Sun Tzu Sun Tzu. right? hahaha

don’t spent time on me.
I am just a no body not worthed for your time.

Get back to the topic.
So what is WCK’s philosophy for you? if you rather like it boarder What is WCK for you?

PS. I am leaving for business trip for weeks. so have fun! Bye Bye…

72

Reality…really.

Originally posted by Phenix
[B]There is a story about a father trying to force his young son to go for hair cutting.

So, instead of the father asking the son — Do you want to cut your hair. The father said, " Do you want uncle or auntie to cut your hair? "

Those mis-leading Technics in arquement is great.

However, it is just an arguement trick. In addition, There sure lots and lots of tricks. [/B]
So now this has become a psychological game has it? Here several people present their views of the topic and how it has been presented, but you call it “mis-leading Technics & arguement trick” Actually, your last post is exactly what you are claiming others are using.

My Sisuk Jeremy (passing through) has an uncanny wit to see the strengths and weaknesses of many things to such a depth I cannot express. Woseung and Duende are also no different in relation to identifying illusions vs reality. Canglong has his own communication style - yet we all seem to see the same thing - even though we are from different parts of the world. What trick is it that you are talking about here? Sorry yo, I don’t see how your hair cut story has any bearing here.

Originally posted by Phenix
[B] some such as :
trying to pick everything apart, using wild logic, and provide false conclusion…bombard one with different attack from lots of others… to over flow and to force the other party into control…

Win with those tricks only shows one knows the trick. Lost to it doesnt mean anything about knowing the topic of discussion or not. [/B]
So now this “anti-historian” (quoted from Hendrik in another thread) uncovers his intentions. I had no idea that you started this thread with an intent for control/power. This reminds me of one of the six states of Samsara… And perceiving several of these ‘counter-to-your-posts’ posts as attacks only confirms passing through’s assessment of your tactics. There is no trick here, no hocus pocus, not even an attack.

Originally posted by Phenix
don’t spent time on me. I am just a no body not worthed for your time. Get back to the topic.
You know, this isn’t about you at all. I have no idea how you got that impression… Martial Arts as a whole is about understanding reality through the removal of illusions. It doesn’t matter if it’s combat, or cyber talk. That’s what all this is about.

Originally posted by Phenix
So what is WCK’s philosophy for you? if you rather like it boarder What is WCK for you?
I already answered, guess you aren’t really following your own thread? Have fun on your trip. BTW, no one here has advised you to get a haircut (as in forcing you to believe/recognize what others can identify with).

73

Savi, perhaps there are more than 2

His point was, you only offered 2 choices in your post, just like the haircut.

ie when did you stop beating your wife?

There might be a third option to those you listed which is to ask people what they view WCK to be from their own perspective.

Then again, maybe there is no spoon. :slight_smile:

Where that leaves the Tick, I’m not sure.

================
So to ask the original question of “What is WCK?” or even “What is the philosophy of WCK” is either:

  1. bait to brag about his own perceived ‘WCK’, or

  2. an honest question pointing to the fact that he doesn’t know his own material.

74

“and what is the philosophy behind WCK As equal to TaiJi of TaiJichuan according to you?”

I have neither an opinion on nor interest in that particular subject.

Hope that is clear enough.

75

While I am carrying a full load in school, I do not have allot of time to post. I have followed this thread though and I think it has been good so far. :slight_smile:

Some points of contention:

In a discussion about a single topic it is okay to change the focus of your initial assertion. It makes the conversation interesting and can lead to thus far unexplored areas of debate.

It is amusing how some people like to jump on Hendrick en mass over presumed threat (?). Get over yourselves. If your belief system is so fixed then what’s the worries. If you are insecure or something.

When training, sometimes it is good to be the one who is struck and pushed and at the disadvantage. It teaches us a certain type of skill and awareness. It also improves our training partners skills. Play in the forum and discuss bring up new ideas and see where it leads.

What is my Wing Chun?

Facing, Changing, Breaking, Controlling and Regaining the Centerline.

WCK is to me perfecting my understanding of the Wing Chun principles to the point that adaptation to a situation is as fast as possible. It is walking the middle path between adherence to the form of the art and the functional application of its techniques.

My image of the art adjusts every time I experience something new. Thus far I have not had to rethink the principles just rethink the practical way of applying them.

Wing Chun comes from the heart - the mind directs the intention, they both have to be aware.

David

76

Hendrik,

One can make assumption, have perfect arguement setting with one’s own logic, to conclude on how a white horse is not a horse right?

I don’t believe you - I’d like to see that argument.

Regardless, I fail to see how your statement is germane to the discussion at hand. I used YOUR assumptions, not mine. I restated them - you’re free to correct me if I misstated them. However my conclusions/statements/comments stand. Are you saying that your inital assuptions were false?

Or are you insinuating something? If insinuating something, speak directly and be done with it. Playing games is a waste of time.

You know, I don’t like these type of Logic because it doesn’t seem to be right. So, well, ignore all the above logical derivation according to your logical pattern.

Your logic is sound but your conclusions are incorrect because you’re initial assumptions are false. And you’re making a straw man argument again.

Back to the topic.
So what is the philosophy of WCK according to you?

huh? That’s the topic? I thought the topic was, “what is WCK?”… that IS the name of the thread… oh, drat… now I’m being all tricky by pointing out how you’ve changed the direction of your questioning.

In regards to cutting hair… was that story a non-sequitur or did you actually have a point?

some such as :
trying to pick everything apart, using wild logic, and provide false conclusion

Using fallacies, like you have done in this thread several times, is playing tricks. If you’re accusing someone of committing a Fallacy you should simply state the Fallacy being used and prove it rather than being implicit about it. However, there is something to be said about being implicit. Being “subtle” and implicit you don’t actually have to prove that someone’s statements are actual fallacies. You can just insinuate it and not have to prove anything… You’re committing a “Tu Quoque” - “You, also” or “You’re another” (Latin)

You’re pointing out (through implication) a false dichotomy that doesn’t actually have anything to do with the subject (What is WCK). By doing so, you are trying to distract attention away from the substantive points I’ve made about your logical errors. If you feel I’ve tried to pick everything apart, state where and prove that picking things apart is some kind of Fallacy. If you feel I’ve used wild logic, state where and prove the logic is wild. If you feel I’ve made false conclusions, state where and prove the conclusion is false.

Jeremy R.

77

David,

In a discussion about a single topic it is okay to change the focus of your initial assertion.

Be that as it may, Hendrik has at different times, asked “What is WCK” and “What is the philosophy of WCK”, claiming both as the topic of this thread. I submit that neither is the topic of this thread and his insistence on returning to the topic of the thread is misleading. This topic of this thread is some as yet unspecified implicit insinuation as to the validity of certain Wing Chun families. It is evidenced in his initial post. I pointed that out in my reply to him, which he ignored by coming after me instead of defending his assumptions and insinuations.

It is amusing how some people like to jump on Hendrick en mass over presumed threat

I don’t reply to Hendrik over presumed threat. I reply to him when he makes vague, vacuous statements that are illogical. Making conclusions based on false assumptions leads to false conclusions. Simple as that. Collecting bits of information is not wisdom. Purporting to be innocent in intent when it can be demonstrated that intent is not innocent kinda bugs me.

WCK is to me perfecting my understanding of the Wing Chun principles to the point that adaptation to a situation is as fast as possible. It is walking the middle path between adherence to the form of the art and the functional application of its techniques.

This begs the question, what are the Wing Chun Principles? I presume the Kuen is the application of the principles… but the principles remain undefined in your post.

By your statement of “Wing Chun comes from the heart” are we to conclude that Wing Chun Principles come from the heart? If not, from where do Wing Chun Principles come? If yes, are all things from the heart = Wing Chun? That sounds kinda dangerous to me. Is there another interpretation of what you were saying? Or were you just being vague on purpose? 'Cause, you know, Hendrik wants answers in the format of “Taiji to Taijiquan as ? to Wing Chun”. Oh, wait, I’m asking too many questions.

And before anyone asks, as for me “what is WCK?” Yes. One good vagueosity deserves another. :rolleyes:

Jeremy R.

78

Mckind, wanted to comment on your observations:

Originally posted by Mckind13
[B]While I am carrying a full load in school, I do not have allot of time to post. I have followed this thread though and I think it has been good so far. :slight_smile:

[/B]

–> Good luck in your studies at school.

[B]

It is amusing how some people like to jump on Hendrick en mass over presumed threat (?). Get over yourselves. If your belief system is so fixed then what’s the worries. If you are insecure or something.

[/B]

–> I think you may have misinterpreted this thread. No one on this thread is attacking Hendrick OR feel threatened. Actually, from the responses to the “what is WCK question” thus far, the contrary has surfaced… seems like most people have a very good understanding of WCK and how they describe its value to them is very, very encouraging and refreshing.

The debate here has been the cryptic way in which Hendrick (I assume that is phenix… if not, boy, am I way out of line, and I apologize, in which case, totally ignore this post) is communicating, and there is a request for clarity on which of his remarks are facts (since he is so intent on emphasizing), or individual viewpoints, which most of us are sharing and the question is apparently asking. Also, people as just requesting him to be just a bit more specific in what he is trying to say versus going around a big philosophical block, some of which don’t necessarily apply here. I think folks here are genuinely interested in knowing about people’s perceptions of WCK, which is why they are here, and if a certain proven fact was shared, I know that these folks will be excited to know that they have attained some additional knowledge and would move to do some more research themselves. However, before they did that, they also wanted to be able to know if someone was posting someone’s own opinion or a true fact.

And thanks for sharing your thoughts on WCK.

79

Phenix:

Thanks for your reply post. I am not going to comment on your responses, as I can respect your right to communicate the way you want to and think as you would as well. However, I will say that it does appear that some of your points contradict themselves and is oftentimes confusing, and some of the reasoning puts a big question mark on my face. Oh well…

Regarding the cultural topic, it is also too bad, in MY opinion, that you see the Chinese history as being so suppressive and that this is such a focal point of your impression of the culture (based on your own statements), even though vaying levels of suppression certainly does exist throughout its existence. at the same time, all societies exhibit some form of suppression here and there (eg, we all have to pay taxes, right? In all honesty, if I had the choice to decide whether to pay taxes or not, it would be to NOT pay taxes. But alas, that is not for me to decide… I am told that I have to pay taxes or I will be legally punished, and so I am paying taxes. And, yes, I know very well where the taxes go to and why they are important.) Personally, my love for my culture is around, among other things, the many philosophies, art forms (kung fu and otherwise), beautiful country, work ethics, family values, and strong, persevering attitude of the people. It is also so nice to see so many immigrants come to the US and abroad, as now they are able to share this with everyone else, and at the same time, learn new things that they can bring back home as well. And, mind you, I am NOT trying to be “buddy buddy” here… I am just sharing my viewpoint about my culture. And can you say that I am idealistic?? You can and perhaps I am… and certainly nothing wrong with that… that is just who I am and who God made me out to be.

And so, like you said, back to the original question “what is WCK”, and I am going to end my debate with you. Or, has it now changed to “what is WCK to you philosophically”, or “does WCK adopt Lao Tzu”… or ???

By the way, the person who faced the tank during the massacre is alive and well in China with his family… I saw a documentary with him in it taken recently during the anniversary of the massacre. So, no, his confrontation did NOT cause him his life, his head, his hand, or his fingers.

80

Passing_through: excellent points and obervations.