What is the true definition of traditional martial arts.

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
21

What is it about TMA that makes normal people’s brains fall out? Seriously guys, step out of the constraints that have been put upon you and look at the facts.

Do you really accept that studying the traditional way will eventually make you a better fighter than a MMA guy who trains w/ aliveness from the beginning?

If that is true than certainly the same logic would apply to other sports, activities, etc. right?

Let’s use basketball, which has very little to do with fighting, but beyond a doubt requires skill, athletics, coordination.

If there are 2 twins (identical) and one begins practicing basketball in grade school, playing pickup game on the playground, becoming involved in biddy league games with his peers etc and follows this same training into high school where he is a standout and then makes a college team and finally onto the pros where he becomes an all star and a seasoned pro by the age of 30. (Literally hundreds of cases of this scenario right?)

Now let’s say the other twin did not practice in games against other kids, he only shoots hoops by himself, practices solo drills and reviews dozens of books, coaches materials etc. The kid knows ESPN like it was a 3rd parent. He doesn’t begin to enter games until he is in high school and never competes against champion teams, just local pickup games.

Do you think this kid will get to the level of his brother? Why not? It’s obvious right? Brother #1 plays alive most of the time, sure he does drills and he spends his time building skills, but most importantly he’s out on the court playing ball with guys that want him to lose! They want to win! He’s had to deal with this pressure and nature his entire career and thru this he knows what he can and can’t do and timing, reaction, conditioning, things his brother will not get because he does not train like this or compete like this.

So how can it possibly be that TMA is somehow the exact opposite? Magic? What is the absurd explanation that would let brother #1’s skills to plateau early and allow #2 to constantly increase?

I think you’re all much smarter than this. Please give MMA’ers their credit. We work very hard to be the fighters we are.

22

Shaolintiger, I think you have some valid points. If one wishes to become a great athlete in so and so discipline, then obviously twin #1 would be the better path. However, if one wishes to defend themselves in a situation that is on the street, then there are an infinite amount of variables.

Here’s my twin scenario.

Let’s take twin #1, he trains everyday at boxing, judo, jiujitsu, sport this or that and from day one he puts on the gloves and practices in a highly competitive environment and everyday he trains against his peers and soon he starts to enter local friday night fight events, then amateur fights, and then onto some bigger arenas. He is able to because from day one he has been training with like minded people and he knows the rules and shape of the game like nobody else. He is well-rounded and can play the game better than anyone else.

Now let’s take twin #2. Twin #2 starts training in a kung fu hall, (and I’ll give the benefit of the doubt that this is a good training hall much like I gave the benefit of the doubt to the MMA hall above), and he starts building up his stances, his conditioning through sam sing, iron palm, etc, and he participates in self defense and awareness drills. Everyday he is told and believes, that an attack can happen instantly and he must get out alive. There may be knives, there may be many people, they may bite, they may spit, they may do any sort of disgusting behaviour because it is REAL combat. So, twin #2 is not keen on fighting because he wants to protect himself and get away without getting hurt. Therefore he trains in the a multitude of ways to prevent any type of attack and trains two on one, with realisitic circumstances and weapons. He has no need for trophies, or to win tournaments, and considers his mind his best weapon.

He has never competed in an event but spars full contact, sans gear, and puts real scenarios to work with movements that will kill someone if need be. His mindset far exceeds his physical abilities.

This is the difference, nothing against MMA, but if you tell me that twin #2 is not prepared then you are wrong. Martial arts are not a game, this is hard to take, but they are for real fighting, where any awful thing can come. There are no rules, and there is no gear, and there is only one chance where a loss can mean a death. We train hard and we put in the daily time, but we are not concerned with what others can see but what may happen if all else fails.

23

st-

no ones getting uptight about traditional martial arts being better or what not, and I personally don’t have a problem with mma training methods, just saying they are different, have different aims and goals and mma training has it’s goodness as do traditional martial arts.

besides, we all know that neither stands well against the odds of the modern martial art of cap in the ass.

im not into competitive fighting so i don’t train for it, but i do spar, do standard drills, bagwork, mitts, pads, + kungfu stuff. It feels good to workout in this way for me, replenishes me and in my opinion is a good path to walk on. I, like many tma-ists don’t have any delusions about abilities or limitations and can judge odds in a situation ok without assuming an outcome based on what I known and can or cannot do.

all anyone can do in an optimum way is their best at what it is they are doing.

24

Thanks for recognizing some of my points.

I’d like to comment on your “twins” scenario because I believe that there are some problems (and hopefully you’ll see my points.)

What makes you think that twin #1 won’t fight dirty on the street? You don’t really think that you have to train how to bite, eye gouge, groin strike do you? Using a base of skills tested in live training, physical conditioning, and competitive mindset (insert the dirty tactics here), on the street this guy shouldn’t have a problem.

“He has never competed in an event but spars full contact, sans gear, and puts real scenarios to work with movements that will kill someone”

Without gear how often can he spar full contact? 1x a week barring major injuries?

You say he trains with no rules, but that is really a lie isn’t it?. There are rules in the kwoon ..you’re not maiming each other. They are just a different set of rules than mma. – BTW – Can you think of a set of less restrictive rules than MMA that let 2 fighters from any style or school fight to determine who is better in civilized society. (not purposely trying to kill each other.)

How is competition a bad thing? I’ve been fighting for a long time..I know that I can beat 95% of the population. But what I really want to know is how many of the 5% I can beat

If Twin #2 is so obsessed with self defense why isn’t he carrying a firearm and a knife backup?

25

BTW,

just in case someone thinks I’m an MMA A$$hole..

I’ve recently started a regional group of “advanced” martial artists from just about every imagainable background to get together and train.

We’ve got MMA guys, TKD guys, MY TangSoDo buddy, some JKD guys, etc.. It’s essentially a group of guys that get together to spar, teach, discuss, drink beer without the challenging nature of a “Throwdown”. I say advanced because it’s really for the teachers/instructors of their schools not the students. This is a time when we can all be students and pass along useful info to our classes.

If anyone in the Ohio Valley/ Western PA ever want to join email me. kungfu guys are welcome.

26

Let me give this a try:

“If there are 2 twins (identical) and one begins practicing basketball in grade school, playing pickup game on the playground, becoming involved in biddy league games with his peers etc and follows this same training into high school where he is a standout and then makes a college team and finally onto the pros where he becomes an all star and a seasoned pro by the age of 30. (Literally hundreds of cases of this scenario right?)”

Or, most likely, as is true with 99% or more of all great schoolyard players, he never becomes Pro. He ends up working for UPS making not-so-great money and continues to play in playrounds for fun while paying his bills but never having a “great” life.

“Now let’s say the other twin did not practice in games against other kids, he only shoots hoops by himself, practices solo drills and reviews dozens of books, coaches materials etc. The kid knows ESPN like it was a 3rd parent. He doesn’t begin to enter games until he is in high school and never competes against champion teams, just local pickup games.”

Now this guy, with his great knowledge of sports trivia and ESPN, instead becomes a sports writer or sports announcer. He makes millions of dollars, lives in a big house, dates hot women (because he’s on TV) and, wines and dines in high class restaurants. Not to mention drives an expensive sports car.

What does this have to do with Martial Arts?

There’s more than one way to survive in the world. Nobody is putting down MMA guys, it’s just that you have ONE mindset. So you think you have to be the best fighter you can to survive in the world? Ask yourself, “does anyone live a good/successfull life in my neighborhood who doesn’t know how to fight?” Chances are…yes. So what does this prove? That you don’t need MA for survival…hence, people do it for many different reasons. This is especially true with TCMA. MMA people have to get it out of their heads that we are all training for “knock-down,” “spit-teeth,” street battles. MMA guys may be better equipped for a real fight than the average TCMA guy, I’ll give you that (generally, your’e all in it for the same reason and you train hard for that). But, a real fight is NEVER a good thing and alot of times it CAN be avoided if not for pride. So you choke some guy out on the street, now deal with his lawyer or, worse, he bit you (go get a blood test). I’m a track star, I ran the heck out of there and laughed about it later. So what’s better training for survival Track Team or MMA? Sometimes running away is also a fight.

MMA for sport is fine but youre not going to survive with it better than anyone else in the REAL world…I firmly believe that.

27

What good is a fighting skill that takes 30 years to become proficient?

If you train MMA techniques the TMA way, they’ll be about as useful as any strip-mall Karate technique.

If you train TMA techniques the MMA way, you’ll be able to fight with your TMA skill-set within your life span, and probably before you start growing hair in your ears.

MMA is a training methodolgy to produce fighters. If you aren’t interested in becoming a better fighter, then the argument has no bearing on you. But I guarantee you if someone would have shown Wong Fei Hung how to train to become a Matt Hughes, he would have jumped at the chance.

28

I disagree Anthony. I’ll give you a very recent example.

My student was entering his first MMA fight last weekend (which he won after 3 mo. training vs.a guy with a lifetime of wrestling, karate, etc.)

After the win we went out and sat down in box seats for the team that the promoter had given our families. GREAT!

So we’re in the fighters box seats and sitting about 4 seats to the left of me is a MMA fighter named Todd “Crazy” Carney. He was the cornerman for his fighter that night and was now sitting in the seats with his wife and kids.

Behind him was a large group of obnoxious guys who were drinking and yelling the entire night, they kept running forwards, putting their hands on the back rail of the box and screaming “Kick his F$^*&(%$@ A$#%$^%$#^%” you get the idea..

now Todd is there with his family so he asks the guys “hey guys chill please” and at this point I realize that something’s gonna happen so I stand up and turn towards the back of the box.

The guys kept at it and Todd stand up and warns them that if he has to say something one more time, someone is getting their ass whupped…

Of course this fuels the group of guys so they start jawing, Todd jumps the rail and throws 4 punches dropping 3 guys before I even get a chance to get between them. I am not exxaggerating. 3 full grown men, dropped to the ground in about 2 seconds.

Where am I going?

Todd is a highly trained mma/boxer with physical attributes.

Strength, conditioning, reaction, and Experience will always be part of winning an encounter in any circumstance.

and re: fighting.. I think most people don’t want to fight. and I don’t think that I’ll ever get involved in a streetfight for the rest of my life.

but the truth is that I do want to fight and I want to test myself and fight the baddest MF’ers I can find. I’m leaving this world in a used and abused body and people who know me are going to say “**** that boy can fight!” I want to have documentation and evidence and students and their students so that it’s beyond question and no one ever has to wonder or imagine if I was a fighter or how I’d do vs. Bruce Lee. That’s part of the legacy that I want to leave behind.

The only reason that I made the initial post was that I was presonally offended by the statement that MMA builds quick skills, but in the end the TMA has better skills. That’s just crap. Intelligent people can see that.

29

I think you missed a big point of this discussion. “Useful” is pretty much a matter that’s up to the individual. You can practice kicks to use in competition or you can practice them to burn calories. So, strip mall karate schools ARE useful to some people.

"MMA is a training methodolgy to produce fighters. "

“Fighting” is not an all inclusive word. You need to make a distinction between fighting for sport or fighting to defend yourself or fighting to survive. Now I know that there is overlap…a good boxer can hold his own in a street fight (when an actual exchange takes place). What i’m saying is that unless your MMA class is training you to dogde bullets or to avoid “dangerous” places then it’s really of no great use in the real world is it?

Most people don’t get into real fights on a regular basis (so why train so much for it?), most fights are preventable, so if your training for a situation that you are putting yourself in what does that really make you?

I think people need to accept that Martial Arts have evolved into either recreational or sporting activities. Little practical survival use in the real world.

30

If the MMA method is different in that it spars full contact, then its actually more traditional than what passes for traditional today.

31

I think that unarmed combat training is useful in the real world.

The “ego fight” & rape prevention come to mind.

32

I think that there is more to the MMA method than just the degree of contact, but to keep on Able’s point I’d add that in this case MMA has improved on was certainly a very limited amount of hard sparring that TMA were doing without the modern sports medicine, nutrition and equipment that me have.

Personlly I think that the “back in the old days is was hard core” has not really been proven with much success.

ex. at it’s core, jujutsu is not really much different than TCMA and it’s a known fact that they did little live sparring and what was done was closer to a 2 man set that allowed the uke to counter attack if the tori’s attack wasn’t properly executed.

Why? Well because like kungfu it was fighting without your weapon so the attack had to be as “deadly” as possible. So the actual technique wasn’t executed (at least not on any consistent level and remain in good health) which led to the inherent flaw in this training: the lack of the delivery system to execute the technique.

33

In training with no rules, I was meaning that we are pulling those punches, etc, right before contact, it is no secret to hit hard from any angle, and so we train to hit hard for that angle but don’t make contact during our training. We have sparring where no equipment, or sometimes gloves are used, we don’t hit those areas but we still incorporate everything and yes, sometimes you do get some pretty sore shins, and yes, after taking a good bare fisted hit to the face, you start to train a little harder, and smarter, or try to continue after getting hit in the junk, which is always an accident, or a body shot that leaves you winded.

As to in the kwoon versus the ring, again, we are not training to enter a competition, we are training to fight. I agree that if people from two schools want to meet up and compete than MMA is a pretty good idea…however, many techniques removed give a definite advantage to the wrestler, for instance. Commonly in a takedown the head is placed on the outside of the body or waist as the legs drives the guy down. This is the perfect position to drop some BACK of the elbows but those are almost always barred. Or small joint manipulation? I understand that anyone can do these things but these are definite advantages to a non-wrestler.
As well, just for giggles, I’ve seen a fight with Royce Gracie and some karate guy and the karate guy started applying pressure on Royce’s eyes and everybody got all panicky and said that he couldn’t do that. And somehow Gracie style is better is the conclusion? Come on it’s just a matter of people playing the other guy’s game.
However, I would rather not see an open style tournament that allowed everything. I have no desire to see humans maim each other but I do agree that if they are to compete then safety should be paramount.

34

Well, we all have our own opinions on this. The true decline of TMA into the “ricebag syndrome” that it is today started around 1985. It all boils down to contact. Pure and simple. Nutrition, equipment etc didn’t have as much impact as the removal of purpose that contact provided. People were padding up and going full in my sigungs school in 1975 so the equipment point is moot. Physical conditioning was paramount. Nutrition, meaning mostly “supplements”, were around too. Surgery may be better and give old far ts like me more time but thats negligible in the overall scheme of things. Theres always another sharktooth waiting to replace the old ones. The young replace the old. No loss. AFAIC, there is nothing new here. Whats REALLY new is what traditional schools have devolved into, a shadow of its former self. We didn’t even see the term “traditional” come into vogue until arts like Wushu began using “modern” as a spin word and “traditional” became the anti spin.

Most here weren’t around in the old days.

35

“Of course this fuels the group of guys so they start jawing, Todd jumps the rail and throws 4 punches dropping 3 guys before I even get a chance to get between them. I am not exxaggerating. 3 full grown men, dropped to the ground in about 2 seconds.”

My point here is that obviously Todd wanted to fight. He initiated it. It would be as if your’e saying that you train so that you can go around starting fights. Todd could have taken his family and walked out…right? He took a chance with himself and his family.

“Strength, conditioning, reaction, and Experience will always be part of winning an encounter in any circumstance.”

Not unless the fourth guy has a gun and shoots Todd for assaulting his friends. This is why I say that people should avoid confrontation at all costs. You don’t know who youre messing with.

"but the truth is that I do want to fight and I want to test myself and fight the baddest MF’ers I can find. I’m leaving this world in a used and abused body and people who know me are going to say “**** that boy can fight!” I want to have documentation and evidence and students and their students so that it’s beyond question and no one ever has to wonder or imagine if I was a fighter or how I’d do vs. Bruce Lee. That’s part of the legacy that I want to leave behind. "

At least your being honest. Do you mean in a sport or real environment? Good luck but I seriously feel that (if youre talking about real life) this is a dangerous attitude to have. You may end up leaving the world sooner than you planned. Do you think your wife or your fatherless children would appreciate your “tough guy” attitude if it gets you killed? It’s just my opinion but is martial arts really worth it?

36

This is actually one of the points I was trying to get across in the original statement of this topic. That and the fact that there are Kung Fu schools that cross train and are not stagnant.

37

… or at the very least fight those from other styles to see how they would fare and form strategies to their way.

38

his is my take on things

[indent]When Training in true traditional martial art you are training your body, mind and spirt. It’s not just about learning how to fight. I train in Kung Fu and to me it is a state of mind or a way of life. I try to study as much about philosophy as I can. Kung Fu means hard work and there is alot of people out that don’t want to put in the effort it takes. They want to walk in. Train for a short time and except to be some kind of martial art expert. Most of the MMA guys have been training there whole lives in one art or another. For an example Matt Hughes he been training in wrestling since he been a kid that’s why he is the welter weight champion.[/indent] [indent]In the age of the lawsuit people are try to sue for anything. People are looking for the big pay off. The easy way out why work and earn money when you can sue for it. So I can’t blame teachers relaxing their sparring practices. Do you know how expense insurance is if you have sparring in your school if they insure you at all. Teachers have to have alot of students or they have to do other things to earn money so they can keep the doors open. I think every school should have some form full contact sparring to help students apply what they learned but it’s hard when you have Big Brother watching over you. Alot of people want to train but want to get hurt. In sparring the chances of you getting hurt are very good.[/indent] [indent]The MMA isn’t for every one. Some of us want to learn alot more than how beat people up. Kung Fu teaches you how to be a better person in general and not just how to be a better fighter. I’ve been reading the TAO lately and found that the teachings are very interesting. As far as Kung Fu being flashy. Things are not always what they seem to be at first glance. For example if you fake left and strike right. If your opponent commits him self to the left he gets hit with right. In traditonal Kung Fu there is free hand sparring and condtioning tech. like iron body and iron fist or hand. They also have meditation tech. that improve the thought process and techs. to improve things like vision and reaction time and herbs to improve you interally. I could go on and on but I think that the true meaning is self improvement in all asepts of life at least that what I’ve been getting out of it. I don’t worry about what other people think because I’m the one who chose to study Kung Fu and I have no regrets. Well you all have a good day.[/indent] [indent]SIGNING OFF NOBBY[/indent]

39

par·a·graph Audio pronunciation of “paragraph” ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pr-grf)
n.

  1. A distinct division of written or printed matter that begins on a new, usually indented line, consists of one or more sentences, and typically deals with a single thought or topic or quotes one speaker’s continuous words.
  2. A mark ( ¶ ) used to indicate where a new paragraph should begin or to serve as a reference mark.
  3. A brief article, notice, or announcement, as in a newspaper.
40

sorry

[indent]I’ve tried to edit the post but it kept jamming everything together. So I left it that way. P.S. I’m like a lotus flower growing in muddy water; touched but not soiled. So get some change and call someone who cares. One more thing I’ve figured it out and fixed it. I hope it lives up to your standard. You have a nice night.[/indent] [INDENT]SIGNING OFF NOBBY[/INDENT]