Grrrrrr
I’d love to be pointed to independant sites that could verify the claims made on the site.
Proper knife defense for a soldier in BDU and gear is not the same as knife defense for a civillian.
This doesn’t answer the topic posed. It just sells a video. You made a video? Fine. What is the knife defense from the video for the situation described?
Sorry if I offended you. The video does deal with this question in a civilian context. And they aren’t much different than the military versions.
The key to the defenses–whether the knife is to your throat-- opponent facing you or from behind with knife around your throat has to do with utilizing rotational force and bringing the elbows close to the body. Never try to pull the knife directly away from you (or kick or turn your head etc.) If the knife is in front the rotational force of your arms will redirect the blade back towards the attacker. If the knife is around the throat from behind, the rotational action will rotate the edge of the blade away from your throat . Position of your arms will cause the attacker to loose leverage. Without actually seeing what I am describing it’s difficult to explain the counter but suffice it to say that some of them result in redirecting the blade into the attacker; dislocating his arm or disarm.
As for the comment about whether the material on my site is real or not. I’ve been through this before on another forum-- so I’m not going to bother to repeat it. I think there is enough references there you can get the picture. Let’s just say because you haven’t accomplished much in your life doesn’t mean the rest of us wasted our time.
I suppose you could start by talking to Adam Hsu. He can verify who my teachers were. You can talk to David Cater at Inside Kung Fu magazine. I’ll give you more if you’re so inclined but I’d rather not waste too many people’s time.
[This message was edited by rovere on 11-26-00 at 08:25 PM.]
Ack, should be a long response… (quotes out of order)
“Sorry if I offended you.”
I’m not offended, just disgruntled. Many people love to chime in with either “My art does it” or “Buy my video” rather than answer the question at hand. This is exactly what your last post did.
“The video does deal with this question in a civilian context.”
Great! The site you referenced did not seem to have material geared at average people, they seemed geared at millitary, law enforcement, and provate security.
“And they aren’t much different than the military versions.”
You feel a 60-year-old woman should work the same material as a 24-yer-old man? Don’t you think a millitary counter-knife technique is morelikely to be geared at 1) clearing the field of fire for his buddy to shoot the assailent 2) gaining distance to use his firearm or 3) gaining position to pull his own blade? This is less likely in an attack on a civillian as he is less likely to be armed.
Further, an infantry man is probibly in good physical shape, and can rely more on strength-oriented technique than an unknown civillian.
“Let’s just say because you haven’t accomplished much in your life doesn’t mean the rest of us wasted our time.”
That’s just presumptious (and rather testy, one might think I struck a proverbial nerve)
“I think there is enough references there you can get the picture.”
It’s not the list… It’s validating the list.
“I suppose you could start by talking to Adam Hsu.”
Sounds like a start. Though since I don’t know who that is, I don’t know how much credence to place on what he says. Where can I contact him at?
“You can talk to David Cater at Inside Kung Fu magazine”
Having been involved with the article submission process at IKF, I have little faith in their checking process (they have none). Or does this person have personal experience with you and your training?
I’ll discuss your actual suggestion (the real topic) in the next post.
Knife Defense
“The key to the defenses–whether the knife is to your throat-- opponent facing you or from behind with knife around your throat has to do with utilizing rotational force and bringing the elbows close to the body.”
Do you mean your opponent’s elbows or your own? And to who’s body (I presume your opponent’s elbow you your body, but since this is different from my approach, I am not sure).
“Never try to pull the knife directly away from you (or kick or turn your head etc.)”
If the knife is already part way in, you will have to pull straight out or risk cutting your own artiery. If the person has his elbows to his sides so the knife is held just below his own throat pointing out, you will not be able to manipulate his elbows or rotate the knife, your options become overpower him away or change your angle to him. There are other instances where kicking or pushing the knife directly away become the most prefererable counters.
“If the knife is in front the rotational force of your arms will redirect the blade back towards the attacker.”
I am a little confused by the position you are describing and the elbow manipulation you have in mind. Do you mean if the attacker is in front of you?
“If the knife is around the throat from behind, the rotational action will rotate the edge of the blade away from your throat.”
OK, I really can’t imagine this one. The position of your elbow is not going to rotate the knife so I have to assume you are moving his. Now assuming the knife is across the left side of your throat, anywhere from in front of your voicebox to across your carotid airtery. And assuming his elbow is beside your right shoulder (as if hes started a rear naked choke to get the knife there), how would you manuver his albow to leverage-rotate the knife?
You could pull the elbow toward your neck (my suggestion if the knife isn’t directly in front). This would move the knife directly away from your thoat and using your other hand to push the knife backwards would put it in his face (while putting you in a rear naked choke).
You could pull the elbow down toward your chest. This might force him to bend his wrist, but would not reposition the blade.
The other two directions are up or away, but those would not work well (that I can see) and are not fitting with bringing elbows in to make rotational force.
“Position of your arms will cause the attacker to loose leverage. Without actually seeing what I am describing it’s difficult to explain the counter but suffice it to say that some of them result in redirecting the blade into the attacker;”
The blade is already pointed at the attacker in most rear knife holds, it’s just your neck is inbetween him and it. Do you mean pointing the tip at the attacker? Or are you thinking of some other hold?
“dislocating his arm or disarm.”
We appear to be thinking of two different things. Care to post a picture of the starting position and maybe one intermediate position?
The approach I was discussing has to do with mechanical efficiency not necessarily physical strength. i.e. roll elbows not pull. As for the 60 year old woman. If she can maximize her mechanical efficiency she has a better chance of successfully executing a technique than using a strength based technique.
I didn’t think the question posed had anything to do with your partner shooting the assailant-- but I suppose that is a viable option.
You can find Adam Hsu on the Internet. I’m surprised that you haven’t heard of him since this is a kung fu forum. He is quite well known and respected teacher in US, Taiwan and Mainland China. His teacher taught the Taiwanese ‘dark suits’ (Chiang Kai-Shek’s bodyguards/secret service). David Cater has not trained with me. The articles they published should be on my site. Why did they not publish your article? I’ve had one refused for not being politically correct – but usually they are quite receptive.
As for disgruntled, nothing I can do about it. Testy yes I guess so since your comments seem to arise from a personal problem with me. I’m curious with whom and what do you train? The last time someone tried this with me they ended up advertising their own web site and videos. Ulterior motive?
The ‘list’ also has references, photos and comments by various persons-- including military personnel. With some leg work I’m sure you can verify this. If you need help I have all of the letters on file. I can’t publish everything on the site. I guess you now know why our consulting business is geared towards professionals and not the general public. At least they pay me if they waste my time.
Give me your mailing address and I’ll send you the video. My compliments.
The elbow rotation is your elbows being rotated towards your body-- approx. waist height. Your hands will be moving away from your throat when this occurs (Opponent has knife around your throat from behind). Of course you must grasp his arm–ideally as close to his wrist as possible – but in real life ‘beggars can’t be choosers’. His blade rotates with your hand movement-- like when you drag the blade along your face when shaving. As long as the blade does not slide back and forth (parallel to edge of blade) it won’t cut. Additionally, since his arm is over your shoulder (like in a rear choke position) he now has to support your body weight from a mechanically inefficient position.
If knife point is at your throat–opponent in front – hold his hand, apply pressure (against the direction of the knife) to his hand to create resistance and again rotate your elbows back to your body. This causes the knife point to ratate away from your throat and towards him.
The idea is to use the mechanical efficiency of the body (weight; moment; rotational force; elbow position) to redirect and control/stabilize the blade.)
Where did the knife being part ways in come from? Again, if you can get the blade to rotate it reduces the likelihood of your being cut. Pulling straighta against the arm puts you in a tug-of-war position and the blade could snap back to you.
Is that clearer?
[This message was edited by rovere on 11-26-00 at 09:36 PM.]
Jerry Love
Jerry Love
“I would turn my neck, so that the front of my throat doesnt get cut, but not enough to expose the jugular.”
That is an awfully high precision to hope to have.
It’s turning your head, anyone can do it. Like when you say “no”
“That way, it’s harder to cut into your wind pipe, and if he does cut through, you can use your shoulder to support your head.”
You think you can loose enough muscle tissue that your neck doesn’t work and your biggest worry is “holding up your head”? This would imply to me that you haven’t researched this subject.
Support your head on your shoulder, there by reducing the blood loss. Ie. Contracting a gash on your neck by pressing it against your shoulder. (Of course if it’s too high, that’s different, but they’ve not been specific.)
“At the same time, grab the knife and hold onto it as hard as you can.”
Jumping to the conclusion that you han grab that dead-on and successfully (and without skewering yourself), which I think is a patently false conclusion… You are now holding a tapering blade, he his holding a handle, and the two of you are playing tug-of-war. It’s pathetically easy for him to free his knife.
You don’t have to be dead on, just grab it and hold on to it for life. (You wouldn’t be doing it otherwise.) You are not going for a precision cut, you want to catch the blade on the muscle tissue of your hand. The damage will cause blood to flow, but this creates a suction effect in the flesh, making it difficult to inflict further damage.
IT IS NOT EASY TO PULL A KNIFE OUT OF DEEP FLESH!
This is why large blades have blood canals. The suction from the flesh around creates a powerful force. EG. stab someone with a bayonet, then put foot on chest to help pull the bayonet out!
Muscles contract as an automatic reaction to damage. Imagine sticking a blade into muscle tissue, then ALL the muscle tissue tightens up 10 times harder than a cramp, and then you tell me how easy it is to pull out.
If you hold it lightly, of course it will come out. That is why you have to hold so tight that it goes to the bone.
" It will cut deep into your hand and will affect reflexes and movement in your hand for the rest of your life. (Hope your not a surgeon.)"
The perminancy of any damage is impossible to gague.
If it cuts to the bone, it cuts nerves. (The cut will be this deep) therefore permanancy of damage is assured. Degree of damage is a different question.
"But as long as the blade doesnt slide, then it can’t cut you. This is how all those “standing on swords work”.
Pure physics. Force has no effect in the perpendicular direction. Therefore, if you stop the blade sliding, it wont cut your hand off."
So it’s impossible to push a knife point into someone because of this?
If there is ABSOLUTELY NO MOVEMENT other than a perpendicular force, it will reduce the damage of the knife. notice: “it wont cut your hand OFF”
The sharpness of the blade is negated and instead, only force of the hit will be effective.
You may say, “so what?!” but the sharpness of the blade inflicts significantly more than the force behind the blade, otherwise we’d all by using clubs!
I didn’t sat it wouldnt cut your hand, i said it wouldnt cut it off! IE. you stop it sawing through your bone!
Sorry, I think this is all very poor advice.
Think again.
Read more carefully next time and do some real research. I understand about the neck muscle, I was a little vague, but the rest will work. Just because you break boards, doesnt mean you break the laws of physics.
The force behind the blade is not the same as the sharpness of the blade. They are two separate forces.
The Force will be with you…always
I am all for mechanical efficiency, but I feel that one needs to discuss other options at time. For example, with a health adult male, I can show escapes that offer some, but little, mechanical leverage. These may be preferrable escapes to high-leverage ones for a slew of reasons including simplicity, length, or other factors. When teaching the millitary or securty, these attributes can be assumed. When teaching a wider assortment of civillians, one may be forced to rely more on the leverage techniques you suggest.
I may indeed look up Adam Hsu, thank you for the information. I am not very familiar with quite a few liniages. My martial exposure is defines by the people I meet, the people I study under, and the people I interact with online. I tend not to think much of people outside that unless they have published work that has interested me.
The article I was involved with was published in IKF.
I’m sorry you feel I have a personal problem with you, I don’t. As I said, I am irked by people who respond to a question with an ad. Your site seemd self-egrandizing (hope I’m using that right 
) and to not cover the question either (though you have since corrected that the knife video is geared toward civillians).
I will not be advertising for myself as I have nothing to advertise (and that would make me a rather large hippocrate). Since the cancer I am not even teaching anymore (though with luck, I will be again in about a year).
I’ll take another look through the support on your site, rather than make you repeat info that may already be there.
Rovere
Yes, that makes more sense. Thank you. 
Your offer of a video is very generous, I think I’ll take you up on it if you don’t mind. If your email is in your profile I send you my address that way. I look forward to seeing it.
JL - “That is an awfully high precision to hope to have.”
Obi - “It’s turning your head, anyone can do it. Like when you say “no””
I;m just concerned about turning it the right amount so neither the jugular/carotid or larnyx is exposed to the blade (which you cannot see). That seems to require more precision than I am comfortable banking my life on.
[snip]
Thanks for the clarificaton.
Obi - “You don’t have to be dead on, just grab it and hold on to it for life.”
That seems to me to require that you be dead on. If you ar not, you either miss entirely or skewer your handon the blade.
Obi - “IT IS NOT EASY TO PULL A KNIFE OUT OF DEEP FLESH!”
I believe you, but there is a tremendous amount of force that the knife wielder can apply. The foot-on-the-chest is to keep the chest down as much as anything. Also, I don’t think a slice on the inside of a hand is similar to a knife imbedded in a hunk of muscle, but I admit I have never tried this on a living creature. Do you have any experience (personal or not) with this being done?
Obi - “Imagine sticking a blade into muscle tissue, then ALL the muscle tissue tightens up 10 times harder than a cramp, and then you tell me how easy it is to pull out.”
Never tried it. I did see that hospital show that TLC shows late at night a few days ago. They were in a British hospital. There was a kid (early twenties so not a kid I guess) that came in. He had lost about 20% of his blood volume to deep lacerations (expically one in his upper leg) where someone had plunged a knife in and pulled it out again repeatedly. So this is quite possible.
“If you hold it lightly, of course it will come out. That is why you have to hold so tight that it goes to the bone.”
If I use a knife to cut the entire width of a muscle (like in the fingers or hand) and cut it all the way through (to the bone) and the muscle reacts by contracting… That would cause the two halves of the muscle to move away from the knife, not squeeze in around it.
“If it cuts to the bone, it cuts nerves. (The cut will be this deep) therefore permanancy of damage is assured. Degree of damage is a different question.”
Degree of damage in the instance you describe is the severing of all muscles involved on the inside of the hand. But since these muscles can be sewen back together and nerve tissue can reform, permenancy is unknown.
Obi - “Pure physics. Force has no effect in the perpendicular direction. Therefore, if you stop the blade sliding, it wont cut your hand off.”
JL - “So it’s impossible to push a knife point into someone because of this?”
Obi - "If there is ABSOLUTELY NO MOVEMENT other than a perpendicular force, it will reduce the damage of the knife. notice: “it wont cut your hand OFF”
Yes, you also said “no effect”. Is it no effect or less effect. The latter I agree with because the lateral motion of the blade (even a non-serrated one) has a sawing action that is more effective than simple pressure.
Obi - “The sharpness of the blade is negated and instead, only force of the hit will be effective.”
Perhaps I am mis-reading but that seems to say that I could push a bat through you (dull) as easily as a knife (sharp) because “The sharpness of the blade is negated” and I know this to not be true.
JL - “Sorry, I think this is all very poor advice.”
Obi - “Think again.”
OK. I think your basic premise that someone is likely to be able to retain a knife being wielded against them by an attacker by holding on to it’s blade is false. Since all of the technique you describe hinges around that being true, I think your technique cannot be relied upon to a reasonable standard.
Obi - “The force behind the blade is not the same as the sharpness of the blade. They are two separate forces.”
Agreed, Sharpness isn’t a force at all, but a property. Kinda like why an arrow (sharp) does more damage than a bean bag (dull) when it hits you at high speed (and in a perpendicular manner I might add).
And if you think it’s a force thing. A riot shot-gun firing bean-bags fires them with far more force than a 30lb bow fires an arrow. And the bags are heavier. The arrow will penetrate flesh, the bean bag will only bruise.
I;m just concerned about turning it the right amount so neither the jugular/carotid or larnyx is exposed to the blade (which you cannot see). That seems to require more precision than I am comfortable banking my life on.
Well the first post said CLOSE to the neck, not in it. And of course you wouldnt risk this unless the guy was going to kill you anyway. (That was in my first post.)
You do risk getting your neck cut open, but as in the first post, this is when you’re dead anyway. THis is when you can see, he doesnt care if you surrender or not…
[snip]
Thanks for the clarificaton.
Obi - “You don’t have to be dead on, just grab it and hold on to it for life.”
That seems to me to require that you be dead on. If you ar not, you either miss entirely or skewer your handon the blade.
The hand is not coming over the blade, rather trying to get inbetween your throat and the blade. Thus if you stuff up, hopefully it will cut your hand really bad instead of your throat. If it skewers your hand, all the better, cos that will mean less overall damage and you will have trapped the weapon to a certain extent.
Obi - “IT IS NOT EASY TO PULL A KNIFE OUT OF DEEP FLESH!”
I believe you, but there is a tremendous amount of force that the knife wielder can apply. The foot-on-the-chest is to keep the chest down as much as anything. Also, I don’t think a slice on the inside of a hand is similar to a knife imbedded in a hunk of muscle, but I admit I have never tried this on a living creature. Do you have any experience (personal or not) with this being done?
Try sticking a watermelon. It aint the same, but the juice and suction will give you an idea about what I’m talking about. Like you said, the whole body is likely to move before the blade will come out.
Obi - “Imagine sticking a blade into muscle tissue, then ALL the muscle tissue tightens up 10 times harder than a cramp, and then you tell me how easy it is to pull out.”
Never tried it. I did see that hospital show that TLC shows late at night a few days ago. They were in a British hospital. There was a kid (early twenties so not a kid I guess) that came in. He had lost about 20% of his blood volume to deep lacerations (expically one in his upper leg) where someone had plunged a knife in and pulled it out again repeatedly. So this is quite possible.
The lacerations would have been bad because the easiest way to get your knife out of a body is to cut up or down. (assuming a vertical stab) This acts as parallel force motion and would cut the flesh open, thus making the wound more horrible. (this is in basic soldier training. stab, foot, shove blade down or up at an angle, withdraw blade. The blade is not withdrawn the same way it came in)
“If you hold it lightly, of course it will come out. That is why you have to hold so tight that it goes to the bone.”
If I use a knife to cut the entire width of a muscle (like in the fingers or hand) and cut it all the way through (to the bone) and the muscle reacts by contracting… That would cause the two halves of the muscle to move away from the knife, not squeeze in around it.
“If it cuts to the bone, it cuts nerves. (The cut will be this deep) therefore permanancy of damage is assured. Degree of damage is a different question.”
Degree of damage in the instance you describe is the severing of all muscles involved on the inside of the hand. But since these muscles can be sewen back together and nerve tissue can reform, permenancy is unknown.
Tendon and nerve damage is a certainty. Nerves heal quite slowly if at all. (thus we cannot replicate or transplant nerves.) they can be microsutured together, but the results are not the same. (eg. guy in NZ with transplanted hand who says he wants it cut off because it is so bad)
Tendons can easily cause permenant damage from stress, let alone serious damage from a blade.
Obi - “Pure physics. Force has no effect in the perpendicular direction. Therefore, if you stop the blade sliding, it wont cut your hand off.”
JL - “So it’s impossible to push a knife point into someone because of this?”
Obi - "If there is ABSOLUTELY NO MOVEMENT other than a perpendicular force, it will reduce the damage of the knife. notice: “it wont cut your hand OFF”
Yes, you also said “no effect”. Is it no effect or less effect. The latter I agree with because the lateral motion of the blade (even a non-serrated one) has a sawing action that is more effective than simple pressure.
OK, i was a assuming a non serrated blade, because the serations mean that you will have mutiple vectors to deal with which would saw right through your hand.
Obi - “The sharpness of the blade is negated and instead, only force of the hit will be effective.”
Perhaps I am mis-reading but that seems to say that I could push a bat through you (dull) as easily as a knife (sharp) because “The sharpness of the blade is negated” and I know this to not be true.
No, the point is that the sharpness overcomes the surface area of resistance. It applies the force and mass of the weapon on a smaller surface thus inflicting maximum damage to a small area, and thus cutting you open.
What i am saying is, with out the sharpness of the blade being able to cut, the damage from the blade PURELY would be negated. NOT the mass or force behind the weapon. I’m sure you agree that the sharpness is far deadlier than the mass.
JL - “Sorry, I think this is all very poor advice.”
Obi - “Think again.”
OK. I think your basic premise that someone is likely to be able to retain a knife being wielded against them by an attacker by holding on to it’s blade is false. Since all of the technique you describe hinges around that being true, I think your technique cannot be relied upon to a reasonable standard.
It’s not a standard, it’s a last ditch effort to save your butt when you dead anyway. You wouldnt try something this dangerous otherwise.
If you KNEW a guy was about to cut your throat open, what would you do? You could hit him any where and a slight jerk reflex would have him cut your throat open. This is sacrificing your hand for your throat to get out alive. Not an everyday encounter match.
Obi - “The force behind the blade is not the same as the sharpness of the blade. They are two separate forces.”
Agreed, Sharpness isn’t a force at all, but a property. Kinda like why an arrow (sharp) does more damage than a bean bag (dull) when it hits you at high speed (and in a perpendicular manner I might add).
The arrow hits perpendicular, but look at the delta configuration of the arrow blade, most will cut in around 45 degrees. (measure the angle from the assume chest, to the edge of the arrow head)
And if you think it’s a force thing. A riot shot-gun firing bean-bags fires them with far more force than a 30lb bow fires an arrow. And the bags are heavier. The arrow will penetrate flesh, the bean bag will only bruise.
Again, notice the sharper weapon has the best penatration. My point exactly. THat’s what I’m saying, if you can isolate the sharpness of the blade effect, you only have to deal with the force behind it!
So the same way an arrow will penetrate and a bean bag gun will not…
so to, once the knife blade can’t move, then the force is dissipated in the same way as the gun!!
See! I think we can agree because of your arrow-bean bag gun example!
obi
The Force will be with you…always
Rovere, thanks for providing your professinal input. I’ll have to check out some of your tapes. I have been very dissapointed with most of the empty hand knife defenses I have seen. I’ve taken allot of FMA seminars (litteraly dozens) as well as some other arts through classes, books and videos. I have been really dissapointed with all of them. They all seem to deal with dueling, not the reality of how knives are used by people who want to hurt you on the street.
JWT
If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV
I’ll try to shorten this
[snip]
JL-“That seems to require more precision than I am comfortable banking my life on.”
Obi-“Well the first post said CLOSE to the neck, not in it.”
[snip]
True, and that would seem to make the slight change in your neck position less effective. I turn my head so the attacker is not quite pointing at my jugular any more and he slashes to the side and gets me anyway.
[snip]
Yes, I do agree that there are sacrifices, times you hope for the less damaging cut.
Obi-“The hand is not coming over the blade, rather trying to get inbetween your throat and the blade. Thus if you stuff up, hopefully it will cut your hand really bad instead of your throat.”
The impression I have been getting is that you recommend grabbing the knife. I agree with using your (less critical) hand to protect your (more critical) neck
JL-“[snip]There was a kid (early twenties so not a kid I guess) that came in. He had lost about 20% of his blood volume to deep lacerations (expically one in his upper leg) where someone had plunged a knife in and pulled it out again repeatedly. So this is quite possible.”
Obi-“The lacerations would have been bad because the easiest way to get your knife out of a body is to cut up or down.”
Do you mean wiggle it back and forth? That’s how most people unstick a knife.
Obi-“The blade is not withdrawn the same way it came in”
I’m not sure how a blade could come out any other location… Do you mean at the same angle?
Obi - “Tendon and nerve damage is a certainty. Nerves heal quite slowly if at all. (thus we cannot replicate or transplant nerves.) they can be microsutured together, but the results are not the same. (eg. guy in NZ with transplanted hand who says he wants it cut off because it is so bad)”
Tendons can be sutured, nerves regrow and reconnect on their own. When I had my jaw cut and reattached, I lost feeling in parts of my lower lip for from days to years (depending on where you are talking about) but it eventually came back.
Obi - “Tendons can easily cause permenant damage from stress, let alone serious damage from a blade.”
I agree, damage may be permenant.
Obi - “Pure physics. Force has no effect in the perpendicular direction. Therefore, if you stop the blade sliding, it wont cut your hand off.”
JL - “So it’s impossible to push a knife point into someone because of this?”
Obi - "If there is ABSOLUTELY NO MOVEMENT other than a perpendicular force, it will reduce the damage of the knife. notice: “it wont cut your hand OFF”
JL - “Yes, you also said “no effect”. Is it no effect or less effect. The latter I agree with because the lateral motion of the blade (even a non-serrated one) has a sawing action that is more effective than simple pressure.”
Obi - “OK, i was a assuming a non serrated blade, because the serations mean that you will have mutiple vectors to deal with which would saw right through your hand.”
That’s fine, non-serrated. I can push the point of a knife through tissue with nothing but perpendicular force. This does not fit with either of your above assertions.
Obi - "No, the point is that the sharpness overcomes the surface area of resistance. It applies the force and mass of the weapon on a smaller surface thus inflicting maximum damage to a small area, and thus cutting you open.
What i am saying is, with out the sharpness of the blade being able to cut, the damage from the blade PURELY would be negated. NOT the mass or force behind the weapon. I’m sure you agree that the sharpness is far deadlier than the mass."
But all the sharpness does is put the force on a smaller surface area. So you cannot negate the sharpness and still say the smaller surface area counts.
JL - “OK. I think your basic premise that someone is likely to be able to retain a knife being wielded against them by an attacker by holding on to it’s blade is false. Since all of the technique you describe hinges around that being true, I think your technique cannot be relied upon to a reasonable standard.”
Obi - “It’s not a standard, it’s a last ditch effort to save your butt when you dead anyway. You wouldnt try something this dangerous otherwise.”
Fair enough, I think there are better last ditch efforts. (ones with a higher chance of success)
Obi - “If you KNEW a guy was about to cut your throat open, what would you do? You could hit him any where and a slight jerk reflex would have him cut your throat open. This is sacrificing your hand for your throat to get out alive. Not an everyday encounter match.”
I’d gladly sacrifice my hand for my throat, but I don’t think grabbing the blade would be an effective way off doing that. My gut reaction would be slap, boneshield and reangle.
JL - “Agreed, Sharpness isn’t a force at all, but a property. Kinda like why an arrow (sharp) does more damage than a bean bag (dull) when it hits you at high speed (and in a perpendicular manner I might add).”
Obi - “The arrow hits perpendicular, but look at the delta configuration of the arrow blade, most will cut in around 45 degrees. (measure the angle from the assume chest, to the edge of the arrow head)”
Yes, if a srtait-razor was attached to the front of the arrow instead of an arrowhead the larger amound of resistance would make it cut less (but it would still cut)
[snip]
Obi - “Again, notice the sharper weapon has the best penatration. My point exactly. THat’s what I’m saying, if you can isolate the sharpness of the blade effect, you only have to deal with the force behind it!”
That doesn’t seem to be where we disagree. My argument is that stopping the blade from sawing does not remove the “sharpness” from the blade (though it does lessen it). That a blad can cut from what you have been referring to as “perpendicular force”.
JL - “So the same way an arrow will penetrate and a bean bag gun will not…”
Obi - “so to, once the knife blade can’t move, then the force is dissipated in the same way as the gun!!”
Moving or not, force is dissipated ofer the surface area of the blade. When drawn across flesh, you get to take advantage of microserrations in any blade tearing at the skin.
OK, let’s clarify
Ok, I’m imaging that it’s a guy with a knife near your throat and he’s standing behind you, making angling difficult.
The blade is too close to try and shield with other extremeties like shoulders, jaw etc… but not actually touching the neck, but rather hovering in front of the neck.
the assailant has his other arm around you to limit your motion, so you only have 1 arm free (the same side as the knife arm). That’s the scenario I’m talking about.
Again i reiterate this is a last ditch move.
JL - Tendons can be sutured, nerves regrow and reconnect on their own. When I had my jaw cut and reattached, I lost feeling in parts of my lower lip for from days to years (depending on where you are talking about) but it eventually came back.
Yes but they do not come back to full capacity. Tendons and nerves are quite sensitive to damage, and after puberty they do not repair as well.
EG. someone who has this type of damage to his hands will never become a surgreon. The precision will not be possible. But normal functions are no worries.
JL- I’m not sure how a blade could come out any other location… Do you mean at the same angle?
Yes same angle is what i mean
JL- Do you mean wiggle it back and forth? That’s how most people unstick a knife.
Yes
JL - The impression I have been getting is that you recommend grabbing the knife. I agree with using your (less critical) hand to protect your (more critical) neck
I’m saying, get the hand in the way first, before trying to grab it. If it fails, you’re neck is still not slashed.
JL - But all the sharpness does is put the force on a smaller surface area. So you cannot negate the sharpness and still say the smaller surface area counts.
Ok, easiest example of this happenind everyday.
Tokyo shockboys, They cut a watermelon on someone’s bare chest with a sugrical sharp katana.
Do you think guys sticking fire crackers up there arse have the precision to stop before the slice open that stomach? Study the video shots, (sorry, I dont have pics but i did study them) The watermelon is cut cleaning all the way through. That’s part of their boast. The blade passed all the way through the watermelon. No fraying towards the end.
This would mean that the blade would have had to cut through to the watermelon skin on the otherside but not cut the skin touching the skin of the watermelon. This would allow for a margin of error less than 1mm, which a surgeon would have trouble with let alone someone chopping down on stage.
The trick is to not allow the blade any movement other than vertical. If there is ANY horizontal movement, then the guys stomach gets cut open by the slightest touch. (Eg. there are examples of this trick failing and the gut does get cut open)
This trick shows the way a blade works.
BUT, when skin/muscle moves, it does not stay on the same plane. (Eg stomach muscles tighten, (assuming lying down) horizontal. Hand contracting around a blade, changes many angles and gets cut UNTIL you reach the bone and your hand has reached it’s full grip where the muscles no longer move any further allowing control of force.) By this I mean, the dynamics of muscles have finished moving so you don’t have millions of variables. I cant really explain this without a diagram or real life, but suffice to say, as long as your hand and muscles keep moving, the blade can still keep cutting. (Thus grip as tight as possible to prevent this.)
JL - Fair enough, I think there are better last ditch efforts. (ones with a higher chance of success)
Well most counter techniques I’ve seen fail if the attacker just slashes again and again and again, or if the attacker is not incapacitated by the first hit. This way, if you stuff up,
1st, your hand gets hit instead of your throat
2nd you touch the blade, and it is much quicker to follow the blade while touching it as opposed to reacting to it. (Yes your hand gets more injured but if you let the knife get away while he has grabbed you, breaking out of holds or hitting him not counter him knifing you again.)
3rd at this range, incapacitating joints along the knife arm if failing, will result in your throat getting cut.
If there are better moves in this situation, I am sure they start with getting the hand in the way of the knife first. This one tries to incapacitate the knife with one arm (from the above assumptions) while allowing a better chance should it fail. GRabbing of wrists etc… could turn into a strength battle which you could lose, whilst this technique tries to make physical obsticales to impede them. (damaged contracting muscles to grab, suction created by gushing blood) mostly physics rather then strength.
JL- Yes, if a srtait-razor was attached to the front of the arrow instead of an arrowhead the larger amound of resistance would make it cut less (but it would still cut)
That doesnt change anything. Only the angle is less obvious. Look very very closely at the point of the razor. If it forms a point, it forms an angle, thus over coming force from a perpendicular direction. < Razor point
/
/
/
/
Arrow head. both still use angles.
If a razor was enlarged, the
point would look similar.
sorry for the crap diagram, but I’m working with what i have.
JL -Moving or not, force is dissipated ofer the surface area of the blade. When drawn across flesh, you get to take advantage of microserrations in any blade tearing at the skin.
I agree with that the microserrations occur when drawing a blade across skin. (this is what my technique was trying to prevent int he first place)
However, as long as the motion is perfectly perndicular, it will not cut. This is how the Chinese circus performers hit each other with swords on bare skin with no apparent sign of damage.
This is how they stand on swords with their bare feet.
By gripping the blade with your hand as tightly as possible, your hand is cut until the point where your muscles/tissue has stopped moving in various directions and hoepfully pinning the blade to the bone. Then using the contraction of the muscles, suction created by your blood, grip strength to prevent jiggling of the blade. (In other words, any other motion except perpendicular) you prevent the blade from cutting out of your hand, thus capturing it at the sacrifice of your hand.
I know this may not be a good reference, but it is easily available but this happens in the movie Rob Roy at the end where Liam Neeson grabs the other guys sword.
Why cant the guy with the razor sharp sword just whip his sword out and kill him? The whole movie is based on realism. Just look at the good sword techniques used throughout the whole film. I’m sure the sword masters would not choreograph such a realistic sword fight to only chuck in hero garbage at the end. The sword techniques used in that movie are real.
That is how you fence with a sabre and how you use a broadsword. (My friend studied European sword fighting and we discussed it)
I can’t think of any easily accessible references other than medical journals. Most of my arguements are based on physical facts and events that many people have witnessed. Not just hyperbole and speculation.
I did not give any technique that relies on any real advantage over the opponent, rather assuming the opponent is stronger, skilled enough to know how to take a blade out quickly and you only have one arm free.
Of course as we both know, if someone really knows how to use a knife, you are as good as dead.
Feel free to discuss this privately
I think my email is registered.
Most of this info is gather after talking to physics teachers, physiotherapists and of course martial artists. I do not have personal experience in using it, but under dire circumstances, I am sure it would be effective from the numerous examples I have given you.
I have also chopped my finger on a cutting board by accident with no ill effect. It was not intentional, but I did not understand why my finger didnt get cut even slightly. The blade was sharp I assure you. I was dumb enough to try again, (though with not the same force as initially) and of course, my skin was cut open. Then i did some research and found out why.
I of course do not recommend replicating the experiment.
cheers
Ivan
The Force will be with you…always
Getting Fun.
“Ok, I’m imaging” [snip]
OK, that’s probibly one reason we have differing advice. Somewhere before your and my conversation started the question got moves specifically to someone in front of you. From the situation you discribe, by first thought is to push the knife away by grabbing the hand/wrist and escape the hold, but much depends on the hold. Still your suggestion seems closer to mine under those curcumstances.
[snip]
Tell you what, let’s giveup the “how well nerves grow back” as off-topic.
“I’m saying, get the hand in the way first, before trying to grab it. If it fails, you’re neck is still not slashed.”
I agree with that.
“Ok, easiest example of this happenind everyday.
Tokyo shockboys, They cut a watermelon on someone’s bare chest with a sugrical sharp katana.
Do you think guys sticking fire crackers up there arse have the precision to stop before the slice open that stomach?”
So how is the watermelon cut under your theory?
“This would mean that the blade would have had to cut through to the watermelon skin on the otherside but not cut the skin touching the skin of the watermelon. This would allow for a margin of error less than 1mm, which a surgeon would have trouble with let alone someone chopping down on stage.”
Unless the sword were decending with enough force to continue to push open the existing gash in the mellon but not enough to open a new gash in another serface (like a stomach). Remember, I agreed that without lateral force, the “sharpness” is not the same, I just disagreed with you saying it couldn’t cut anymore because of that.
“Well most counter techniques I’ve seen fail if the attacker just slashes again and again and again, or if the attacker is not incapacitated by the first hit.”
Gaining control of the weapon or getting out of range is the #1 priority for this reason.
“2nd you touch the blade, and it is much quicker to follow the blade while touching it as opposed to reacting to it. (Yes your hand gets more injured but if you let the knife get away while he has grabbed you, breaking out of holds or hitting him not counter him knifing you again.)”
Ever play sticky hands? Try it where your partner has a marker and his goal is to touch as many places as possible with it (including hands and arms). Do it at speed. See if sensitivity works (suggest he try pulling the marker back and flicking it out rapidly)
“If there are better moves in this situation, I am sure they start with getting the hand in the way of the knife first.”
Maybe, what hold did you have in mind (wing lock?). The hold is important, it determines what directions and movements you have available. If it is a winglock, I’m not sure how you let someone get you into it with one hand. My solutions had presumed 2 free arms.
“GRabbing of wrists etc… could turn into a strength battle which you could lose, whilst this technique tries to make physical obsticales to impede them. (damaged contracting muscles to grab, suction created by gushing blood) mostly physics rather then strength.”
I just don’t think there is that much tissue in your hand to worry about suction. And breaking out of a writ grab indicates strength or legerage enough to force open your hand (when the muscles are intact). The only advantage I see of going fo r the blade is if he slashes your neck and you are not strong enough to stop the movement, your hand is between the blade and your neck (something I already said I thought was useful).
“That doesnt change anything. Only the angle is less obvious. Look very very closely at the point of the razor. If it forms a point, it forms an angle, thus over coming force from a perpendicular direction. < Razor point”
A straight razor doesn’t have a point, hence the name. It is rectangular in shape.
“However, as long as the motion is perfectly perndicular, it will not cut.”
You mean like an ax swing?
"This is how the Chinese circus performers hit each other with swords on bare skin with no apparent sign of damage.
This is how they stand on swords with their bare feet."
I don’t know about the former but the latter has to do with distribution of weight. A nail will go into you with perpendicular force but you can lay on a bed of them.
“I know this may not be a good reference, but it is easily available but this happens in the movie Rob Roy at the end where Liam Neeson grabs the other guys sword.”
A sword is not a knife
“Why cant the guy with the razor sharp sword just whip his sword out and kill him?”
Swords are not razor sharp, though a sabre is somewhat sharp (kinda like the inside of a computer case that hasn’t been bezeled)
“The whole movie is based on realism. Just look at the good sword techniques used throughout the whole film.”
He used a Claymore like the was fighting a horse, not a person. There is a reason for that untapered part just above the quillans.
“I’m sure the sword masters would not choreograph such a realistic sword fight to only chuck in hero garbage at the end. The sword techniques used in that movie are real.”
Most of it’s good. The low hold on the Claymore is a mistake even many of the experts make.
“That is how you fence with a sabre and how you use a broadsword. (My friend studied European sword fighting and we discussed it)”
I’ve fenced and spent a few years as a stick jock in the SCA. My favorite weapon was a greatsword. Espically since so few knew how it was used.
“I can’t think of any easily accessible references other than medical journals. Most of my arguements are based on physical facts and events that many people have witnessed. Not just hyperbole and speculation.”
As I said, the guy was in the hospital with half-a-dozen holes where a knife had been plunged in to the hilt in much bigger miscles than the hand and pulled back out and shoved in again. Hospital ER, not speculation.
“Of course as we both know, if someone really knows how to use a knife, you are as good as dead.”
He wouldn’t use a knife the way discribed either.
“Most of this info is gather after talking to physics teachers, physiotherapists and of course martial artists.”
My HS physics teacher though that 2 cars hitting at 30MPH each was like one hitting a K-Rail at 60MPH. My college physics teacher was more enlightened. Of course, neather would have been of any use in this discussion.
“I have also chopped my finger on a cutting board by accident with no ill effect. It was not intentional, but I did not understand why my finger didnt get cut even slightly.”
Some of the original head-chopping devices (the Guillotine was a later one) used a straight, rather than an angled blade. The “perpendicular force” did work, but not as well as the angled blade. I have put the flat blade of a knife against many a fruit and pushed it through with no sawing. Cleavers don’t use lateral force, neither do axes.
Jerry
Some interesting answers here. I would say try them out with an opponent with a training knife and see what happens. Then try this one out and see what you think:
1- Reach up and grab his wrist (with both hands if possible).
2- Move one hand over his fingers to give you more control over his hand.
3- Bite the crap out of his thumb/hand.
I have found this to be a pretty workable defense.
1 I am mildly opposed to and 2 I am indifferent about, but I strongly oppose 3. What happens when the knife wielder brings his other hand up and just shoves the kife (that you just put in front of your face so you could start your biting) into you? I don’t think that your knifewielders are playing to win (either consiously or subconsiously) if this is working for you the way you describe. (of course if your leaving out the part where you get him in a position that he looses control of his arm/hand between the grab and the bite part, that may explain your strategy working, but you should really mention that for the sake of people trying to follow or critique your advice)
BTW, this just reinforces my belief that one should not get their knife training through a BBS, go find an instructor.
This propably sounds really stupid to you knife-fighting professionals, but why the hell you want to grab the BLADE? why don’t you just grab the wrist or the hand?
Duplicate
Short answer, you don’t. In general, grabbing the wrist/hand (while preferable to grabbing the blade) is only practical when you have control over more of the arm than that (otherwise, your opponent will still have control of the knife). Usually, you want to control or break the arm with the wrist, elbow, and shoulder.