Originally posted by sayloc
[B]I have found that when I charged less money I had less students who where much less dedicated. When I began raising prices I signed up more students who trained harder. I doubled the size of my school. I dont know why but it happened that way.
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I said that the best thing my instructor ever did for me was to make me pay. If I payed money for my training or extra material It seemed like I practied it more which of course makes your Kung Fu better. I have found it works for my students as well. I also make more money in the long run.[/B]
Seems kind of ironic that we only value things that we can assign a monetary value to. That said, I’m sure there are lots of people who appreciate martial arts that are taught to them for free or effectively free.
Of course there is the great selling phrase “Praying Mantis kung fu is very rare, you will be lucky to study it here”.
Or you can change your selling phrase to “Paying Mantis” Sorry, cheap shot from a WC guy.
Here take a swipe at me … no, with the other hand … no, straight punch not hook …
“I like my kids class now…6 on a good day.
as much as I’d like to have a good 12-15, once you get that many you have to use a more military, rank & file approach and I don’t think that imparts the best training to a kid.”
I hear ya, but I’ll put another spin on it. The rank and file type of class can be ok as long as the teacher’s attitude is still positive and not too obsessed with militarism. Kids will be kids, so punishing them from every step out of line is not productive. The “secret”, if you will, to a kids class is too take up as much of the down time as possible. Kids have the attention span of a squirrel. Too much time on one thing or too much time between things will bore them. Much is said about making the class easier, thats not what drove me when I was a kid. I got off on how hard it was. It was a real challenge to keep up.
Another concept people don’t get is that the club should actually be doing its best to weed out those that are a hindrance. Keeping those that want to work. This will attract more of this type of student.
There is one school I know of in Key Biscayne , FL that actually has the students voting the new guy in or not. This keeps the peace and makes the group strive for better. And those guys have a group of kids that I would kill for.
Originally posted by CFT Seems kind of ironic that we only value things that we can assign a monetary value to. That said, I’m sure there are lots of people who appreciate martial arts that are taught to them for free or effectively free.
More times than not, what they appreciate is the fact that its free. But, they take the teachers time for granted. Most(maybe not all) times these students have a very casual attitude toward what they are learning.
just to clarify: by ‘military rank & file’ I was referring more to lining the kids up and doing shadow boxing type drills or line drills or forms and that’s all you can do because you don’t have enough instructors to break the class into groups for more individual attention.
there was many a day I would line up 20+ kids and be the only instructor there. not much choice then but line em up so you can keep your eye on them all. didn’t like that at all…40 beady little eyes just staring at you, waiting for you to turn your back for just one second so they can whack the kid next to them.
lol, if anything, I’m way to relaxed about proper form and etiquitte in class. I just don’t get off on all the bowing and scraping. But, as my kids class grows I know I’ll need to implement that stuff again.
one of the rifts between my and my old teacher is that there were two kids that I did not feel should be there. Real hazards to the other kids. He wouldn’t boot them.
I think that, like a lot of other sports, some kids aren’t especially there because they want to be but because the parents want them to be. Even with just 6 kids, I have to deal with parents who place just too much importance on their 6 year old doing tan tui exactly like it should be done. It looks lke tan tui, most of the arms and legs are in the right place at the right time. Maybe I should be more demanding of precision but I just can’t see beating it into the kid. If he’s having fun doing it then he’ll stick with it long enough to be nailing it when he’s 10.
“one of the rifts between my and my old teacher is that there were two kids that I did not feel should be there. Real hazards to the other kids. He wouldn’t boot them.”
I’ve had the same problem over the years with my teacher. This is something you can’t do anything about until you are in your own house. Its his house, his rules. The only way to make change is to note the patterns. Its happened to me three times in a row. I get a good class going, a student comes in and disrupts the whole classs and kids quit. So to save one or two we sacrificed 10. That never made sense to me. That point might help change things.
So now that I’m on my own, I take that lesson and make sure it doesn’t happen to me again. At least I try.
What do you do with the kids?
As far as the parents are concerned, thats just as much of a reason to X a kid out. The parent has to understand that their little perfect prince or princess isn’t going to be a superstar over night. If they can’t handle that and stay the heck off the floor, then its time for them to move on. Some parents make the mistake of thinking that their child has the same degree of understanding as they do. Its really easy to be on the sideline like a soccer mom yelling for a foul. Note that the same people never actually get on the field themselves. Things would be different if they actually played. So try to sign them up too. Once they feel first hand what the work is, they shut up right quick. Sometimes holding on to a student is worse than letting him/her go. Thats when the line between teacher and baby sitter is crossed.
we did lose kids and I pointed it out and he knew it. i didn’t understand but you’re right, his house his rules.
What do you do with the kids?
lost me…was this a specific or rhetorical question?
In my specific instance the parent couldn’t handle the adult class and quit but kept the kid in. they are ok people, just a little too high an expectation for a 6 year old.
Thing is, the kids actaully does things pretty well and learns quick. Just a difference between gross motor control and fine motor control.
Saw a school in Missoula MT where the guy had built a parents waiting room with a one way mirror. The parents could watch but the kids couldn’t see them. Pretty good idea.
if you’re in the business to get rich, you probably won’t be producing quality athletes/ martial artists. the first thing you need to make real money in the biz is a large student body. and IMO the more students you have, the less personal attention is given to each student. the more you know about the individual’s strength’s and weaknesses, the more you can train them in specific areas… so how much can you know about 300 or more students in the same school ???
this is a huge problem i’ve noticed in TKD schools over the years. the owner would have a GREAT family oriented program, since families bring in more money than just one person, yet the training itself was extremely toned down so as not to scare away potential students. a lot of times that means No contact sparring, No intense endurance classes, No Anything that doesn’t entertain the student and seem fun. And i’m sure most of you would agree, proper training isn’t always fun… in fact i feel that you must go through a lot of growing pains in order to reach a certain level. so while the training is more toned down, its been commercialized and costs more than ever before. the best school i’ve ever attended had 15 students and charged 60 dollars a month. for these reasons, TKD is a fast growing style in the states, yet has gotten a very bad rep and is looked down upon by other more “effective” martial arts. yet tkd in korea is very different, and that is why they still dominate competitions on an international level
i think the best teachers are those who dont NEED the money, and are sincere in their approach to better the student… even if that means some pain and discomfort along the way.
" the less personal attention is given to each student. the more you know about the individual’s strength’s and weaknesses, the more you can train them in specific areas… so how much can you know about 300 or more students in the same school ???"
Not all students are created equal. And, you don’t just lump all 300 into one class. The ones that show real potential get bumped to the elite class. And, personal attention is best dervied from a one on one private lesson. Again, people love to get something for nothing. They think that 3 group classes a week is enough, its not.
what do u mean by this? i agree that there are different methods of teaching… but i was referring to the growing franchise of mcdojos surfacing around the country.
are you suggesting that everyone teaching these days has a large student body consisting of childrens / adult / and elite classes?
do u think no one believes in taking on only a handful of students to ensure quality instruction, and that EVERYONE is truly in it for the money ?
There are plenty of very capable people out there offering their time simply because they like to teach. While going through college, my instructor allowed me to train for free… which doesnt mean i didnt contribute to the school in some way from time to time.
Actually Mr Miyagi does exists, matter of fact more than one lives in Okinawa. One even started his own Ryu.
The best instructors that I’ve had were also the least expensive. All had day jobs and really loved the arts that they taught.
The ones that show real potential get bumped to the elite class. And, personal attention is best dervied from a one on one private lesson.
Agree 100%, but do you charge extra or a higher rate for the elite class? Are they an additional class or a different track all together?
I initially watered down my Kids class so as not to deter student enrollment. Then slowly over time intensity and difficulty just crept in. Now, at this point I hadn’t realised it, I just pushed each student to achive their potential. It apparently got to be really hard, and they loved it.
So, anyway I got parents interested, and started to train them as I had come up right off the bat. It was still harder than the kids classes, because Kids are kids. Well what happened is all the parents quit. Later I realised my mistake, and watred down a parents class to the max and had good retention untill I closed it all down due to my back and health problems.
In the end, I realised the KIDS could be pushed pretty darn hard, and pretty much right up to the levels of intensity I came up at. Even if I pushed them almost to tears, they kept comming back for more. Infact it seemed the harder I pushed them the more they loved it. Student attaendance was allways the highest when i went through a rather brutal training phase.
The parents on the other hand couldnt’ hack it, and I had to super water everything down, make it fun and playful and basically entertain more than teach to keep them into it.
I was actually shocked that it worked like that. I’d think the adults would have been more able to handle the hard training, but in the end it was the little kiddies that truely took to it.
I don’t really have a point with all that, just felt like sharing with you all.
the information in my kids class is layed out the same as the adults.
just by sash rank. and less of an expectation on how long they may take to understand something. but, kids can sometimes get something an adult won’t for a while.
that may be the most valuable thing about teaching kids.
no sash ranks in adult class, but you almost HAVE to put a belt/sash on a kid. it will be the unique 6 year old who doesn’t want that. luckily my three 14 year olds have come to understand that it doesn’t make a bleeding diff.
Sorry, cheap shot from a WC guy.
