Violent Behaviour........

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
21

good thread

I think this is a good thread for everyone to think about. I keep thinking about the situation in Boston right now where there’s a trial going on about the hockey dad killing the other hockey dad in a fight. It’s a lose lose situation, and I bet that the defendent wishes that someone would have stepped in and stopped him before he killed the guy. There were several witnesses and they all have excuses as to why they didn’t try to stop the fight, I wonder if those excuses help them sleep at night. The women say that they were too old or too helpless to help, wasn’t there a fire extinguisher around. CO2 is very cold and one quick blast would take the fight out of anybody. And, where were the other fathers when this was going on? Two families will go fatherless now because no one had the guts to step in and intervene.

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Good point Mighty B, I see it all the time. I work at our local Rennaissance festival doing security and medical response, and almost everytime we have had to break up a fight, we have to break through a ring of people just sort of standing around. No one ever steps in. Its odd considering when we have someone go down from heat exhaustion we have to beat all of the ‘nurses’ and cpr professionals with a stick…

23

I try not to judge a situation, just let it happen.

I had good parents, when to good schools, and had good sensei and sifu’s. I leasrned early that MA is for defense only.

I got into Bhuddism, stopped eating meat, the whole nine.

I would say I am a Taoist if I had to pick such a label.

I say, be yourself. Be kind. If something happens, deal with it naturally. Try not to let hate enter your mind at that time, realise its all relative (why the attack, drugs, money, poverty, insanity, jekousy).

You’ll make the right choice.

As for killing in the line of duty: for whom do you toil? Yourself or your government? When sept 11 whent down I took a lof of head because I said I would not enlist. But for whom do you toil? I toil to be a good person, to be the best I can be. I do not involve myself in politics or international concerns. I train, work, have fun with my girl and sleep well. If someone comes through my door with bad intentions, or jumps me on the street, I’ll deal with it, not the government. Then I’ll go on about my business.

Sounds like your head and heart are in the right place, now shut the dialogue off between the two.

24

EvolutionFist

Sounds like you’re perfectly content with letting others toil for your safety and freedom.

I guess it depends on where you’re willing to draw the line and how much civic responsiblity you have. Most people are way too eager to blame the government for all of their problems and believe it to be the biggest contributer to social ills. It’s also these same people that say they won’t participate in the system out of protest, yet they take the most advantage out of the benefits that it gives. The system works best when people are involved and activily contribute to it’s growth and success, but that’s way off topic anyway…

25

I don’t blame anyone but myself for my problems. I look only to myself for the solutions.

As for this whole argument. If I just happened to be born in the Middle East, should I hate the USA? Or that I am born here, hate Muslims? No, I am me, a free thinking human being. I disociate myself from politics. I will never be a soldier. I follow no one but myself.

I train to be general like, not foot soldier-esque. I live in NYC and see very clearly what happened, I train a few blocks away from “ground zero.” But there are ground zero’s in Kuwait, Iran, Vietnam, cambodia, Nicaragua, all over. I had nothing to do with those, and nothing to do with Sept. 11.

How many sons and fathers were killed in WWII? Could we have better relations with Japan now? If you want to go and get killed fighting for the USA, awesome for you! Respect by opinion to not get involved in such matters. I want to sleep, eat, drink and train.

If it becomes too much of a hassle to do it here, I’ll do it eslewhere. I gain nothing from controling the oil in the Middle East, or stopping a gov. that wants to devide its earnings. All I want is peace, and it seems the governments of the world keep getting in the way. I think most people agree, but because of machismo or brain washing, feel a need to die for the wealthy.

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you definately wouldn’t make it as a soldier your ego would get in the way.

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Be careful where you go with that Evolution, I was fighting for our country as a whole, I dont like politics or politicians, but love the freedom we have here, the freedom to think do and believe in what you want to believe in. I went to Kuwait during the gulf storm but was it a worthy cause? I cant answert that for what really is? All I know is that in the evening as the sun was setting in the west, some buddies and I were outside our bivouak saying goodnight to america.
For what it is worth, I dont disagree with your want to not join the military, its not for everyone, it was mostly not for me. Its what makes our nation great, but it is also what started this thread, sort of. I chose to go because I dont mind being put in a situation where I may have to kill what I percieve as a bad guy.
Anyway, I would rather not turn this thread into a political discussion, it is going good…

28

EvolutionFist

I can agree with most of what you’re saying, and I would have to agree with you that most if not all wars are initiated for some kind of power gain by those in charge. But, sometimes it does become necessary to participate in violent conflicts to preserve your way of life from an aggressor. Situations like WWII being one of those. There’s no way that the US could have peacefully coexisted with Nazi Germany. We had to do something and it was much better to do it in their land rather than ours. Same thing with Japan. They felt compelled to attack us, but they did attack us and we were technically a noncombatant at the time. We didn’t attack them, they attacked us and brought upon themselves the full retribution of the sleeping eagle. Same things happening now in the MidEast. For some reason, other countries feel that they can take us, they all meet the same fate in the end. Their countries and their way of life are annhiliated. Going way off topic there…

I don’t want to get into a political discussion. Be who you are and try to do the right thing. Peace is ideal, but it’s not the right thing all of the time. Remember, most police and soldiers are doing what they believe in because they believe in the ideals of democracy. It isn’t for big gov’t or big oil. They do what they do to try to make this world a safer place for their families, friends, and even you.

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“I gain nothing from controling the oil in the Middle East”

Except every modern convinience that is dependent on oil and petroleum products, at an affordable price.

30

“but love the freedom we have here, the freedom to think do and believe in what you want to believe in.”

I would argue also that the majority of soldiers out there are young men, very young, who could not go to college either because of academic or financial reasons. These same minds are quite easily led to believe that whoe ver the government is against at the time is “the bad guy.” We had zero relations with Pakistan a year ago after their nuclear test. Now they are our allies. We are now friendly with Vietnam as well.

I would argue that I wouldn’t make a good soldier, not because of my ego, but because of my desire to think for myself. I don’t look at people as “the bad guy”, just as people who unfortunately have an agenda that does not coincide with the US and will become the “bad guy.” Hitler was a different case. One could argue that the US was well aware of Pearl Harbor, in fact provoked it. No one would argue we are the only nation to drop an atomic bomb on a nation – two cities to boot.

I love the USA, didn’t want it to turn to this. Just support my original point. I am me. The gov. and the USA is outside of that. IF you start thinking of going along with the mass thoughs associated with nations be careful. Do you support inprisoning people for growing a plant? How about state sponsored murder (that is what killing an unarmed man premedatativekly is)? Who we kill and why? I’d rather be trully free. Sorry if you can’t understand that. I for one will sleep good, knowing I haven’t killed 50 men because I’m on the front lines just doing my job.

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Martial brothers, let’s agree to disagree and follow our own hearts.

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I agree with you in so much as you have your freedom to do what you want. That is the American Way.
For the record, most soldiers I knew, and I knew a lot, were in it because it was the choice they made. I fought to preserve our way of life, not defined by our laws, but by the way we live.

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i have a feeling that if all men were born with the same sized *****, there would be no wars

peace
travis

34

crap they edited out ***** :slight_smile:

to reiterate

i have a feeling if all men were born with the same sized wang then there would be no wars

peace
travis

35

Hmm. Hmmmmm.

Hmm. :wink:

While I agree that war itself is ALWAYS a tragic thing (no matter how necessary), life, like you said needs to be addressed for what it is. The ups and downs, the ideals and angers, etc. Buddhism should give you the mindfulness to be able to see in all directions, and act accordingly to what is going on around you.
Now this doesn’t always mean to constantly “strive for middle way” since the “middle way” itself can become an extreme. Sometimes in life we are forced to take action. For whatever reason. With a mindful spirit and strong faith, we can take those actions with the proper mindset, and reasoning within ourselves. Not necessarily just to protect ourselves, but for that which is much more valuable (at least to me), the protection of other people. Now. People are people, therefore “American” people are not the only ones deserving of protection from such a mindful heart. Mindfulness does not pick and choose like that. Evil and innocent appear in all cultures. Culture itself does not make something “right” for a group of people. A good example would be an experience I had with a Mongolian girlfriend of mine some time ago. She had been going through some tough times, and was crying to me. However, she said that to her culture “crying” was seen as weak. So the more she cried, the more weak and worthless she felt about herself, which made her cry more, which lead to EVEN more worthless feelings…you get the picture.
It wasn’t until I told her that I thought her crying was in actuallity a strength (in that she wasn’t afraid to show me her emotions) that she began to feel better about it, better about herself, and obviously was able to stop crying. My point was, that my advice was not her “culture” but was better for her than what her “culture” had instilled. At least in that particular instance. And that is what life is made up of. Particular instances.
I’m getting off track, and I realize that. :slight_smile:
My point here is that generalizations about what people think and feel is bad for mindfulness. You have to look at them individually. Which is difficult.
Everything is NOT relative. For if it was, how could someone make the “right choice” as you put it? :slight_smile:
Buddhism doesn’t necessarily teach that. Well not the ones I’m involved with anyway.
Thinking for yourself means more than just “riding the waves” You’ve got to do some swimming yourself too.

Mindset is important. War may very well be necessary. Violence may very well be necessary…but what is NOT necessary is the glorification of it. When we joke about “killing the Taliban” or make internet games of beheading Osama…that to me is not the proper mindset. Killing him might very well be necessary…but if we do, let’s do so with the mindset that it is tragic that we must do so. That way, we don’t become gleeful in killing (which is what he is doing)
During any situation, one must see all that is happening, and find the appropriate actions AND the appropriate mindset. It is not simply compromising or taking an extreme. It opens up a whole new option. THAT is middle way.

Anyway glad to post. :slight_smile:

Ryu

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but they dont edit out crap… ahh well its a strange world :slight_smile:

im partially with evolutionfist on this one

theres no way i will go out and kill for my country; but i have no problems in lining up to do my part peacefully, and supporting those who do

call me a coward, but i strive to keep evil out of my life

peace
travis

37

Not cowardly.

Ryu

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Good post Ryu!!! Excellent post, very lucid and well thought out.
A few guys in my unit and I used to sit around and talk about the things we may be called to do. When new guys came through, they were always fresh out of training and ready to kill. But my CO put it to me this way, he said that fast did it differently, we got up close and personal (being an urban combat specialist will do that to you), the guys we go after we HAVE to look in the eye, because we HAVE to get that close. Before you go in with your team you HAVE to be sure you are ready to do the right thing. The right thing wasnt about your country, or your beliefs or whatever, it was about not letting down your team mates, because then thier lives become endangered.
That is the reason I say it is subjective…sometimes it is the situation. I always said that hopefully I dont get called to stop someone who has chosen the wrong path, but if someone did, I would be at the gate waiting!

TjD - “call me a coward, but i strive to keep evil out of my life”

I am not sure what you are trying to say here but I dont consider what I did evil, as a matter of fact, I say that evil, may be just a matter of perception? Maybe we each have our own demons…

39

Maybe we each have our own demons…

That is a very real statement with much “fright” behind it actually…but that’s for another post. :smiley:

Thanks, Red5, glad you enjoyed my post.
I’ve got to train a bit, so I’ll leave with this. While I don’t think Evil is always subjective, it does deceptively become subjective quite a bit. After all, they say the “devil” is the ultimate deciever, right?

Well talk to everyone later. :slight_smile:
By the way, Red5, I have really enjoyed yours posts, and this thread in general.

Ryu

40

Ryu, I agree with you 100%.

I do not go so much the middle way, but my Way, which could be viewed as middle. As for say, Bin Laden, yes, it seems its time he should go. Yet, he does speak for some people, some people who have negative feelings say about a country like ours, who goes into other lands, supposedly tp help (media sound bite) but realisticly to protect our intrest. When he was fighting Russia, he was a freedom fighter, now he fights us, he’s a terrorist. He took it too far, struck our home ground … again. I live in NY and remember the first WTC attack. Then I said, we should be mindful. Guess it wasn’t big enough.

I agree, wars will happen. It is part of our Way as man unfortunately. I doubt I will ever take part in one unless people start landing out front on the beach. I don’t know what to say, other than I am training very seriously (this is a martial board) but do not want to kill anyone. Oil, land disputes, even freedom, which is very relative (you can drink today, you can’t drink tommorrow (prohibitian), but then you can drink next week – doesn’t sound like freedom to me if it can be given and taken) – I don’t know. I know who I am and live by my own principles. Some things I do would be considered criminal by this society some things would be considred great charity. I’d do them either way because they stem from inside, the outcome will be the outcome.

I know this will aggrovate some, but I’m happy this way. For those who go and fight for our freedoms, I apreciate it. But to always have it thrown back in my face, seems like someone always reminding me of a Christmas gift. Give it because it comes from within, for its sake. Not to hand over people’s heads – otherwise much of the honor is lost. I don’t think much of our country would be different if we never set foot in Vietnam or even Iran for that matter. In fact, we didn’t do it right in either of those cases. We outright lost the objective of Vietnam, push back the communists, and eveb worse, never realy had a strong one in Iran other than to be big brother to Kuwait. Who defeats their enemey and leaves him in power to stir … I think we are now experinecing what happens when one does that. Where did those weapons to the PLO come from, Anthrax?

I don’t know, I’m sick, been sick for days and rambling now. All I can say with certainty is that I will never be in fatigues. I’d be shot as a desserter before that, because I’m not one to run out of a fox hole with 10 guys to capture a hill. Coward? I just think smart. If it got that bad I’d grab some weapons and loved ones and take off to the mountains – alone. If it got that bad I’d want no part of this society, I barely do now.