Tom Bisio Book
Yeah - I understand that finances can be tough…
The book’s a good start though. If you’re interested in this area it’s $90 well spent. I wasn’t able to get it this weekend but will buy it through the internet on Wednesday if it’s available then.
Best,
Steve
Hi Steve, always a pleasure. I am hoping to start Tom’s courses this year.
Three Harmonies-500. might seem steep for “just a weekend” but Tom’s classes are very intensive. From what I heard from people who took the courses, you get alot more than what you pay for in terms of wealth of knowledge and hands on experience. I took his Martial Arts injury class and I took enough notes to write a textbook! So much practical information, I’m still trying to absorb it. Trust me, it’s money well spent.
(I should get a kick-back for promoting his classes!:D)
I surely do not want to come across as if I do not think Mr. Bisio’s stuff is top notch. I certainly DO think he is a great practitioner, and very talented. I am merely stating I cannot afford such workshops, I do not fit into that social/financial bracket.
I will get the book when I have some extra cash, for sure.
Cheers
Jake 
Just a bit about the book, the new Tui Na book Tom and Frank wrote.
This book is a wealth of information if you are interested in doing tui na, even with friends and family. The picture quality and the descriptions are easy to follow. I see some posts regarding the high price but this book is textbook quality. It will be used in acupuncture schools that have this curriculum as part of the program. It is hardback with glossy pages.
The book entails all qi gong taught in the classes also.
I am taking the classes, soon off to take Level 3 of the Tui Na and yes I just bought the book last visit to NYC. In class we get great notes so the main reason for me to buy the book was for the qi gong instruction. That and to support my teachers.
Zheng Gu Tui Na book
Just got the book yesterday and spent the morning reading the introduction and perusing the rest of the chapters.
It’s extraordinarily good. I’ve taken all four Zheng Gu Tui Na levels from Frank and Tom (and have been a student of Tom’s for several years now) - and I still found myself nodding my head and saying to myself, “Oh - now I understand!”
Of course, no book about Tui Na will ever be a substitute for actually practicing Tui Na; this book will merely help deepen your intellectual understanding of your own practice. But that’s a pretty big “merely”: I’m confident that Zheng Gu Tui Na will be the standard by which all Tui Na books will be judged, and frankly, can’t imagine it ever being surpassed. Time will tell.
Best,
Steve Lamade
out of curiosity-I heard someone (forgot who) say that once the courses are completed, you can actually “hang a shingle out” and open up a tui-na “practice.” Is this true? What courses are required, and what are the NY state requirements, or restrictions? (I’m taking the courses anyway, as I feel that anyone teaching TCMA should have a working knowledge of tui-na and dit-dar, but it’s always good to supplement a school’s income)
[QUOTE=TenTigers;790719]out of curiosity-I heard someone (forgot who) say that once the courses are completed, you can actually “hang a shingle out” and open up a tui-na “practice.” Is this true? What courses are required, and what are the NY state requirements, or restrictions? (I’m taking the courses anyway, as I feel that anyone teaching TCMA should have a working knowledge of tui-na and dit-dar, but it’s always good to supplement a school’s income)[/QUOTE]
that’s simple Rik - there is no legal barrier to your ofering “tui na” or “bodywork” services in NYS; what you are restricted from is using the terms “massage”, “mobilisation” or “manipulation” unless they are within one’s scope of practice as a licensed health care professional; but otherwise you are actually free to go ahead and “treat” anyone whom you like
from an ethical perspective, however, I find there to be a multitude of problems with anyone taking a few hundred hours of instruction in a single modality and then thinking that it’s ok to “hang out a shingle” for their services (and I am not implying that you personally think this is ok - I’m speaking in general); this would include, but is not limited to, the following reasons:
[INDENT]
anyway, I think you get my point: there is no legal barrier, but IMHO I think it’s a really bad idea otherwise; what I think is a great idea is, if you are serious about it, to go to school for the 18 months it would take you to become a Licensed Massage Therapist (LMT), which would satisfy all of the above issues, with the exception of being able to “mobilize” (oscillate a joint specificaly) and “manipulate” (thrust the joint); to do those you’d have to get a PT or DC license (I don’t know if L.Ac’s can do manips legally, but I’d imagine that they can do mobs)
anyway, that’s my understanding of it - others may have more updated info and can correct me as they see fit; I would also talk to l’hommedieu about it, he may have insights I don’t; and if you would like to discuss the matter in more detail, I am happy to do so
Tui Na and Bodywork Services
Rik,
cjurakpt makes some good points here. I’ve also thought long and hard about the issues he raises, and I also believe that there are important pros and cons to be considered if you decide to treat people outside the legal and ethical umbrella that attending LMT school will provide. For the record, I also think it’s a great idea to attend a massage school as it will only prepare you to better utilize the skills that you have learned. More about that below (I’ll address cjurakpt’s points one by one, as I think they provide an excellent scaffolding for discussion).
On the other hand, I have a strong anti-establishment streak and can appreciate the reasons why someone may choose not to go the LMT route. I am reminded of the “how do you like them apples?” scene in the movie “Good Will Hunting” wherein Matt Damon’s character dresses down the snotty grad student who has attempted to humiliate his working-class friend in the bar by demonstrating his superior “intelligence.” Damon’s character engages the grad student in an impromptou debate about 19th century economics and history and procedes to not only anticipate but throroughly dismantle each and every argument the grad student could have offered (if he could get a word in edgewise) by taking each one to the next logical level, and then to the level after that, etc. After demonstrating his complete and superior grasp of the subject matter, Will then says something like, “Now, don’t you feel terrible? You’ve spent thousands of dollars getting a (mediocre) graduate school education, and all you’ve needed all along was this free library card.”
It’s an entertaining scene and has philosophical merit. It also reminded me, when I first saw it, that one of the best professors that I had in college, a published scholar highly respected for his expertise in Medieval literature and a revered teacher (over 30 years at the same institution) never bothered to go beyond his B.A. degree. He was listed as merely “instructor” in the school’s curriculum guide, but apparently this didn’t seem to bother him or the thousands of students he taught throughout the years.
Of course, practicing bodywork carries different responsibilites than scholarship. Add to this the fact that both Will Hunting and the professor that I describe above were both able to florish within the walls of an institution that afforded them support and protection despite their maverick status. To carry the issue further, martial arts schools have for thousands of years offered bodywork therapies as part of their curriculum, and many schools have long traditions that require expertise in bodywork therapies if students are to become teachers. This is however an apprenticeship model of dozens of years within a traditional culture that allows for plenty of time to address the ethical caveats mentioned above, with strong mentorship on a constant basis, and a “client” pool that is much more tolerant of mistakes than the general public.
In your particular case you have the advantage of already teaching in this kind of culture, and I gather from some of your posts on forum that your teacher may be part of a similar tradition. I would suggest to any martial arts teacher that that if you (rhetorically) want to practice bodywork you start within the context of treating martial arts students on a pro bono basis, and that if you wanted to charge for your services you’d do so only after getting a lot of practice in this manner (it certainly won’t hurt your student attendence base). In addition, some might think that providing bodywork to students who are injured in the course of practice are just be part and parcel of the services that the teacher provides for his or her students. On the other hand, “getting the paper so I can practice legally” certainly has its practical merits, in addition to addressing the concerns described above.
That being said, let’s move on to cjurakpt’s points. I list them mostly to reiterate their good sense:
This is certainly true. LMT schools at least introduce the issue and provide resources for further study of which you may not be aware.
True again. However in your case the wheat may have already been separated from the chaff…
I think that there is a lot to consider here. Add to this the fact that (in the context of treating students) there are transference issues from student to teacher, etc., and it gets even more complicated. On the other hand, it’s certainly arguable that
you’ve assumed an ethical responsibility qua martial arts teacher and that it carries over to any bodywork you decide to practice. Re. the issue of civil suits I should think that you are somewhat vulnerable if you practice bodywork in the context of “martial arts” and something goes wrong: i.e. “I wanted to learn martial arts and I got this cracked rib because I agreed to let my teacher practice “bodywork” on me,” etc. However I think that the risk is mitigated by the kind of student you are treating, and certainly an explantation of potential risk to the student (however unlikely) goes a long way of covering you both here. Most bodyworkers that I have learned from have admitted to making “mistakes” along the way to becoming experts in their fields; at issue is the strength of their training to begin with and their abililty to assume responsibility for their mistakes and rectify them.
Essential. As an example, I’m treating someone currently who tore his biceps tendon completely off his radius. My advice, on intitial consultation, was that he get an MRI, i.e., there was really nothing I could do for him at that point besides knock down the inflamation and swelling. After his MRI results came in (the next day) he asked be what to do next (I advised surgery). The end result is that he got surgery for his injury within days of it happening (when it was the optimal time to get it), and I was able to start treating him with herbs and acupuncture. Some three months later he is well on the road to recovery.
That’s a relatively superficial example. Your main concerns here, as I sure you are aware, are to rule out potential issues like heart attack, cancer, stroke, etc.
True enough - although your “team” (health providers that you know) may in fact be extensive enough to provide your clients with adequate support if you think that bodywork may not be the complete answer.
with the exception of being able to “mobilize” (oscillate a joint specificaly) and “manipulate” (thrust the joint); to do those you’d have to get a PT or DC license (I don’t know if L.Ac’s can do manips legally, but I’d imagine that they can do mobs)
“Zheng Gu” (correct bone) is conceived as occuring within the scope and practice of Tui Na; I think a strong case can and should be made for not claiming to do Chiropractic “manipulations” and “mobilizations” insofar as we don’t go to Chiropractic school and learn their methods. In contrast, furthermore, Zheng Gu always involves extensive soft tissue work beforehand, and there is a separate theoretical context for performing these techniques. All the Zheng Gu that I have learned always involves taking the joint along its natural lines of movement.
Although it may be argued that this is merely skirting the issue, I think that there are important reasons for skirting it (!) - not the least of which is the fact that Zheng Gu existed for thousands of years before the advent of Chiropractic. Why get mired down in a non-issue IMHO?
Thanks for acting as a sounding board for the above considerations. I can’t pretend to present a complete answer to your question, but at least it should provide a start.
Best,
Steve
While both cjurakpt and l’hommedieu both have very valid and well thought out arguments, I must also bring another aspect to the table.
Ethical and legal issues aside, the power of health-care in our country has been taken from our hands over the years and transferred to high-priced ‘specialists’. Many of the techniques used in tuina, along with the folk remedies like cupping, guasha and herbs have been practiced by lay-folk for centuries in rural areas of Asia. The arguments presented previously both revolve around determining whether or not you are ‘special’ enough to be a ‘specialist’. However, don’t let these things scare you away from learning the techniques. Your motivation, however, is most important - do you wish to learn simply to make money or to serve humanity? Just food for thought (fuel for the fire?).
Anyways, I threw down my hundred bucks and now my Zheng Gu Tui Na textbook is on its way! I hope Tom and Frank give some west coast seminars that I can attend.
peace
herb ox
When I was with my ex, who inherited her dit-dar healing skills from her mother, we always treated our students gratis.The only charges were that they contribute to gauze,tape,liquor for jow on occaision,etc, as it always came out of pocket. I feel it is a natural extension of the “service” offered, for a Sifu to be able to heal his students.,(as well as himself) as it has always been done. Most of my Chinese Sifus practiced some form of dit-da, and I feel it should go hand in hand with trainng Gung-Fu. Many techniques have been lost due to recent generations of students not being trainined in the healing aspects of TCMA.
[QUOTE=lhommedieu;790899]On the other hand, I have a strong anti-establishment streak and can appreciate the reasons why someone may choose not to go the LMT route. Of course, practicing bodywork carries different responsibilites than scholarship. To carry the issue further, martial arts schools have for thousands of years offered bodywork therapies as part of their curriculum, and many schools have long traditions that require expertise in bodywork therapies if students are to become teachers. This is however an apprenticeship model of dozens of years within a traditional culture that allows for plenty of time to address the ethical caveats mentioned above, with strong mentorship on a constant basis, and a “client” pool that is much more tolerant of mistakes than the general public.
In your particular case you have the advantage of already teaching in this kind of culture, and I gather from some of your posts on forum that your teacher may be part of a similar tradition. I would suggest to any martial arts teacher that that if you (rhetorically) want to practice bodywork you start within the context of treating martial arts students on a pro bono basis, and that if you wanted to charge for your services you’d do so only after getting a lot of practice in this manner (it certainly won’t hurt your student attendence base). In addition, some might think that providing bodywork to students who are injured in the course of practice are just be part and parcel of the services that the teacher provides for his or her students. On the other hand, “getting the paper so I can practice legally” certainly has its practical merits, in addition to addressing the concerns described above.
it’s certainly arguable that you’ve assumed an ethical responsibility qua martial arts teacher and that it carries over to any bodywork you decide to practice. Re. the issue of civil suits I should think that you are somewhat vulnerable if you practice bodywork in the context of “martial arts” and something goes wrong: i.e. “I wanted to learn martial arts and I got this cracked rib because I agreed to let my teacher practice “bodywork” on me,” etc. However I think that the risk is mitigated by the kind of student you are treating, and certainly an explantation of potential risk to the student (however unlikely) goes a long way of covering you both here. Most bodyworkers that I have learned from have admitted to making “mistakes” along the way to becoming experts in their fields; at issue is the strength of their training to begin with and their abililty to assume responsibility for their mistakes and rectify them.[/QUOTE]
I agree with Steve - obviously my answer was very generalized, it did not speak to Rik’s nor anyone else’s particular situation; that said, it was also written in context of how Rik phrased the question by using the term “hang out a shingle” - this, to me implies advertising one’s services to the general public, not limiting treatment to one’s own students, which, personally, I think falls under a different sort of “contract”, I am all for it as long as it is done safely and intelligently, because you already know them and have a rapport established (I’d say not to do it with anyone who has been there less than about a year or so though as a general guideline)
[QUOTE=lhommedieu;790899]“Zheng Gu” (correct bone) is conceived as occuring within the scope and practice of Tui Na; I think a strong case can and should be made for not claiming to do Chiropractic “manipulations” and “mobilizations” insofar as we don’t go to Chiropractic school and learn their methods. In contrast, furthermore, Zheng Gu always involves extensive soft tissue work beforehand, and there is a separate theoretical context for performing these techniques. All the Zheng Gu that I have learned always involves taking the joint along its natural lines of movement.
Although it may be argued that this is merely skirting the issue, I think that there are important reasons for skirting it (!) - not the least of which is the fact that Zheng Gu existed for thousands of years before the advent of Chiropractic. Why get mired down in a non-issue IMHO?[/QUOTE]
this is another one of my favorite topics; personally, I think it’s a bit silly to get bogged down in the argument of what is a mob versus a manip, and if you do your manips like a chiro versus like an osteo is it different or the same thing, etc. etc.; personally I think it’s all turf war BS, but it’s how things work, and if an LMT writes somewhere that he mobilised a joint, he can be in deep doo doo; and so, we have to define these things in non-profession specific terms, so that they can be applied across the board; the bottom line is that if you oscillate a joint near or at the end of its available range in order to increase ROM, you are doing a mob, regardless of what your license is; likewise, if you perform a manuever to directly take a joint past some sort of non-physiological “barrier”, you are doing a manipulation; so regardless of whether it’s jing gwat or chiro, if you thrust something and it moves, you did a manip, and if someone reports you and it’s not in your practice act, it can be a problem; now personally, I think that it is well within the scope of practice of an L.Ac. to perform all manual techniques encompassed by classical tui na, including doing jing gwat techs; but that’s just me - I also think an LMT can do mobs safely,it’s not such a big deal…and TBH, there are also ways of getting aroud the restrictions, e.g. - writing in your notes that the joint spontaneously re-articulated following soft tissue work when the patient was moved from pone into sidelying or some such silliness to account for the change in a way that doesn’t compromise you;
[QUOTE=herb ox;790958]
Ethical and legal issues aside, the power of health-care in our country has been taken from our hands over the years and transferred to high-priced ‘specialists’. Many of the techniques used in tuina, along with the folk remedies like cupping, guasha and herbs have been practiced by lay-folk for centuries in rural areas of Asia. The arguments presented previously both revolve around determining whether or not you are ‘special’ enough to be a ‘specialist’. However, don’t let these things scare you away from learning the techniques. Your motivation, however, is most important - do you wish to learn simply to make money or to serve humanity? Just food for thought (fuel for the fire?).[/QUOTE]
all good comments; again, I think the main issue is advertising one’s services to the general public without proper training; in the “old days”, someone may not have been licensed, but everyone in the village could vouch for their ability; essntially, a license is everyone in the village vouching for you without you having to talk to everyone in what is now a really big village…
in regards to power of health care being taken out of “our” hands: when the population starts expecting miraculous and heroic medicine to be the norm, then it no longer can be in their own hands; like mosst everything else in our culture, medicine has become, to a certain extent, specticle - we luv reading about those 45 hour surgeries separating conjoined quadriplits (?) or whatnot; as the modalities become more powerful, they are necessarilly restricted because it takes a lot less to apply gua sha safely and effectively than it does to do a heart transplant; in regards to the folk remedy stuff, I say power to the people, but somethings are just beyond most people’s ability to get let alone use…
Our latest sweepstakes
Enter to win KungFuMagazine.com’s contest for Beyond the Battleground Autographed by Tom Bisio! Contest ends 5:30 p.m. PST on 9/29/2016.
Our winners are announced!
See our WINNERS: Beyond the Battleground Autographed by Tom Bisio thread.