[QUOTE=Sihing73;946961]Hendrik,
For those of us who only read English could you provide a translation??[/QUOTE]
Sure, I will try to do rough one for you.
1823
1823, Chen Heung (CLF’s founder) Baisi to Lee Yau-San ( the Disciple of master Jee Shim). Lee is a famous martial artist in Canton who is keen in Long pole and legs technics.
1839-18401845
1839-1840
General Lin Ban Opium, Chen asisted Lin to train Lin’s sailor fighter. Opium war started Chen leads his students to participate in the war…
1845 Chen sent his students to open up 40 and more CLF schools in both Canton and Kwan Xi.
1853
While the Booming of CLF martial art schools, The Taiping started the uprising. Lots of CLF students supporting this uprising. IE: Fung Yin San ( the Taiping’s southern king) etc. These people had become the dominant general of the famous " goldern field uprising".
Chen Hueng on the other hand secretely support his Cousin brother Chen Song-Nien leading the Canton’s Dien Dee Wui for the Yiang Men Dong Mountain Uprising.
1853, Taiping capture NanJing from Qing. Qing Chief General Zhen Kou-Fan starts to recruiting solder. Chen dont want to be Qing army. Thus fleet his home town to teach in other places and propagate CLF.
1856
1856 Chen becomes She Da-Kai ( Taiping Wing king)'s advisor, helping She to train the uprising army. after Taiping kingdom broke out its own internal conflict, Chen resign his position. Taiping lost, Qing army is capturing the EX TAipoing. Chen was force to fleet out of China…
later Chen arrived at San Francisco…
The Names in the above such as Zhen Kuo Fan, She Da-kai … are the well know people or Heros in that period of time in Chinese history. and as we know Qing Knows Chen due to his involvement in the Opion War and the Taiping.
This above is happening parallel with the Lee Man Mau Uprising where Lee is the leader of the Red Boat Opera.
This also parallel with the Shang Hai Uprising of the Sio Dau Wui.
And all of these people are related. In Yik Kam lineage, we know the story but I have never suspect the size of the scale until I landed in Shang Hai and found the connection between Shang Hai and Canton.
Also, the CLF record also lead me to understand why the Cho family has CLF. In general, The WCK is for the opera people while the CLF is for the working class. These people all have common denominator and they are all belongs to the Taiping-Dein De wui uprising.
What I also found out is that the Taiping heavenly King, Hung Siew-Chuan also had gone to Pun Yee Canton to have meeting with the Dein De Wui people. Cho family located in Pun Yee.
Thus, with all of these we know why the ending of SLT salutation of Cho family said " Wing elbow as (bong elbow) sword finger present to the Ying Hung ( Hung Ying written in reverse. a symbol of Tien Dee Hui) and the half point of the 6.5 pole said " half point of middle spear settle the Taiping)
we know also SLT was created before the uprising the salutation is created at the uprising.
I’m just curious what is the source of the translated articles above? My apologies if i missed reading it… otherwise crediting your sources is a wise idea to add weight to your points. Useful information is the name of the author and the name of the publication it was printed in or the web site it is recorded on. Thank you for the translation.
[QUOTE=punchdrunk;947002]I’m just curious what is the source of the translated articles above? My apologies if i missed reading it… otherwise crediting your sources is a wise idea to add weight to your points. Useful information is the name of the author and the name of the publication it was printed in or the web site it is recorded on. Thank you for the translation.[/QUOTE]
It is from different collections.
One always can check out with CLF people and the history of China.
I’m confused about a few points.. are you saying CLF and Wing Chun are related, as martial arts or just as sharing similar political or military goals in history? Are they related to emei as well or entirely different? How is this version of history more verifiable than others? I know that’s a lot of questions any help would be appreciated.
[QUOTE=Hendrik;946975]1823
1823, Chen Heung (CLF’s founder) Baisi to Lee Yau-San ( the Disciple of master Jee Shim). Lee is a famous martial artist in Canton who is keen in Long pole and legs technics.
[/QUOTE]
The question I have is Lee Yau Shan (San) is supposedly Jee Shim’s (one of the Fujian Shaolin 5 elders) disciple …but Jee Shim is fictional?
We all know that Jee Shim allegedly had 5 great disciples - each creators of the 5 great families of Southern Fist (Hung, Lau, Choy, Lay, Mok) and Lee Yau Shan would be Hung Hei Goon’s Si Dai…
I get confused…
I think there might have been a misprint of the surname “Ding” from “Fang”
I have contacted Stanley to clarify things. A misprint is a possibility, but that may of course depend on how many references there are.
Edit: Stanley has replied and told me that he also thinks that Ding is a misprint.
I guess classical fighting arts is a magazine? Is the article in a current isssue or an older issue? Sounds like an interesting read.
[QUOTE=punchdrunk;947009]I’m confused about a few points.. are you saying CLF and Wing Chun are related, as martial arts or just as sharing similar political or military goals in history? Are they related to emei as well or entirely different? How is this version of history more verifiable than others? I know that’s a lot of questions any help would be appreciated.[/QUOTE]
1, For the Taiping -Tien Tee Hui uprising events, in the 1850 era, historic data shows us WCK and CLF at some point sharing similar political military goals.
2, Martial art DNA vice they are different type of art.
3, However, Cho family evolve further fusing CLF and WCK to create a post CLF influence Cho family WCK art. Now a day, some Cho family WCK in SEA is this type of Post CLF influence art.
4, Thus, IMHO, we need to be careful when dealing with WCK origination research, there are WCK DNA and there are WCK involvement in Uprising. one is not default to others.
As I mention above, it is a 2 tracks path, one is the uprising involvement, and another one is the DNA of the art.
As in Yik Kam WCK lineage, we know
1, the DNA of SLT is from Emei 12 Zhuang and White Crane of fujian. and
2, the Anti-Qing movement which the lineage involve in is the 1850 Taiping- Tien Tee Hui join operation. This is not the same with the Anti-Qing operation which is in 1650’s or 1720’s or as generally mention as the burning of Shao lin period.
Hope this help
[QUOTE=chusauli;947012]The question I have is Lee Yau Shan (San) is supposedly Jee Shim’s (one of the Fujian Shaolin 5 elders) disciple …but Jee Shim is fictional?
We all know that Jee Shim allegedly had 5 great disciples - each creators of the 5 great families of Southern Fist (Hung, Lau, Choy, Lay, Mok) and Lee Yau Shan would be Hung Hei Goon’s Si Dai…
I get confused…[/QUOTE]
Robert,
IMHO,
The reason I switch to using martial art DNA to indentify the mother of the art decades ago instead of using Name such as Ng Mui or Jee Shim is because it is very confusing and there always are multiple stories of who Jee Shim or Ng Mui is while the art of these martial art systems have a totally different DNA. IE the Ng Mui Pai and White Crane…etc.
and you notice the time of these characters appeared is also very confusing.
As for the Burning of Shao Lin, one can check into the history of China to see if every time there is a Tien Die Wui uprising it was always called it the Burning of Shao lin. So there is burning of Shao Lin in 1650’s, in 1720’s, and in 1850s.
Thus, it is not the burning of Shao lin temple, but because the Tien Die Wui followers called themself the Shao lin Disciples.
EVen within Cho family alone you could see different stories of their WCK.
IE:
1, The story of Miu Shun combine White crane and Emei to create SLT.
2, The story of Jee Shim teaching the Red Boat opera WCK. Thus, it is a Shao Lin WCK.
For me, those are stories from two era,
#1, is from the Pre 1850 .
#2, is from the Post 1850 .
So, to really investigate where the SLT from, one needs to investigate the pre 1850 records, but most will only remember the Post 1850 because the salutaion remind them they are anti Qing.
However, that anti Qing story doesnt tell them where the DNA of SLT is from; so, again, they guess and the name such as Ng Mui, JeeShim…turns up so that is thier best guess.
in fact most younger generation today doesnt know the record such as the SLT Kuen kuit exist. what they have are Post 1850 or post CLF influence kuen kuit.
Thus, there are incidents that the younger generation trying to debunk the older kuen kuit unknowing they makes a mistake. since debunk the older kuen kuit is actually cut away the roots of their art .
[QUOTE=Hendrik;947044]
As for the Burning of Shao Lin, one can check into the history of China to see if every time there is a Tien Die Wui uprising it was always called it the Burning of Shao lin. So there is burning of Shao Lin in 1650’s, in 1720’s, and in 1850s.
Thus, it is not the burning of Shao lin temple, but because the Tien Die Wui followers called themself the Shao lin Disciples.
[/QUOTE]
I understand! It is a metaphor…
Hendrik
I understand that the Cho family fused CLF and WC.
Frankly, I was not particularly impressed with the versions of WC from SE Asia that were put up on You Tube a while back.
As far as I can tell from the standpoint of concepts : Ip man’s wing chun and CLF are world’s apart. I have seen good exponents of CLF.
joy chaudhuri
[QUOTE=Vajramusti;947071]I understand that the Cho family fused CLF and WC.
Frankly, I was not particularly impressed with the versions of WC from SE Asia that were put up on You Tube a while back.
As far as I can tell from the standpoint of concepts : Ip man’s wing chun and CLF are world’s apart. I have seen good exponents of CLF.
joy chaudhuri[/QUOTE]
There are different version of WCK within Cho family.
The idea is suppose to be "those who has master SLT could mimic other’s external shape and make it works " however, the problem is if one has not master SLT and also not master CLF. That becomes a mess.
Hendrik
[QUOTE=Hendrik;947072]There are different version of WCK within Cho family.
The idea is suppose to be "those who has master SLT could mimic other’s external shape and make it works " however, the problem is if one has not master SLT and also not master CLF. That becomes a mess.[/QUOTE]
I have nothing but the deepest respect for doing slt and admiration for it’s assistance in doing non wc motions. But why have CLF as part of a regular curriculum?? Family historical reasons?
joy chaudhuri
[QUOTE=Vajramusti;947079]_________________________________________________________________________
I have nothing but the deepest respect for doing slt and admiration for it’s assistance in doing non wc motions. But why have CLF as part of a regular curriculum?? Family historical reasons?
joy chaudhuri[/QUOTE]
Joy,
It is mean to do WCK with CLF shape to take advantage of the boomerang effect or the let go Let God flow.
A small boomerang and a large boomerang are both boomerang.
and, large or small both has its beauty,
It is like a song, one can sing the same song lots of ways creates lots of different beutiful music and keep the same soul.
The problem comes when one doesnt know how to sing and end up with making lots of noise.
[QUOTE=Hendrik;947072]There are different version of WCK within Cho family.
The idea is suppose to be "those who has master SLT could mimic other’s external shape and make it works " however, the problem is if one has not master SLT and also not master CLF. That becomes a mess.[/QUOTE]
This is a very good concept, as WCK practitioners can adopt any system. When you are in the center, and your mind is in the center, you can move freely in all directions.
CLF Noi Liem Sao and Hung Ga’s sticking bridge arms have much in common. Its quite possible the Cho family found the connection here. All three systems share a lot in bridging and sticking in high levels as Southern Chinese fist.
The advanced CLF set of Fut Jeung uses palms strikes like we do in Siu Nim Tao. Many of the Hung Ga fist sets have the same or identical palm strikes we use in WCK.
From the Taiping’s history part, we can see the Heavenly king’s activity with Dien Dee Hui and Lee Man Mau. also the involvement of She Da Kai ( Chen Hueng (CLF) was his combat advisor).
Thus, this also confirm the Taiping, opera group, CLF… connection in 1850s. the picture is clear.
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Robert,
More on what happen in 1850. and become even more clear how things evolve. It
For 1850 era, it even goes as far as pointing out Ng Mui is Leong Lan-Kui’s nick name. Yes the Leong Lan-kui of the red boat.
Jee Shim is the leader of the Hung kuen (this Hung Kuen is more likely to be the CLF or Choy Gar Hung Kuen.. Thus again Jee shim could be very likely to be the Nick Name of Chen Hueng.)
and
in this period of time, 1850’s Shao Lin Temple is the nick name of The Keng FA Wui Koon or the Jade flower opera association. and indeed the Jade flower opera association was burn down by Qing army. and the Opera members fleet.
1848
1851
1854
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1839
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1848
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More and CLF, Chen Hueng, Hung Kuen ( Different then Hung Gar), Jee Shim… Red bandana, Red army.