[QUOTE=goju;1029832]wouldnt it prove more if you actually sparred or even a trained person vs some bum hanging around on the corner looking for a fight?
I mean in the small handfullof street fights ive been in when i was younger the personS i had a fights with didnt really know how to defend themselves at all so it didnt really prove much besides the fact i could beat up a person who didnt know how to fight
set up an actual fight with some who trains so you can actually test yourself and stay out of jail, the hospital or the morgue:p[/QUOTE]
Here is an interesting debate, goju.
This guy says a person does not need to spar to develop fighting ability. If he wins against this gangbanger would that not prove his point? We will never know how skilled his opponent was but I think this might be interesting anyway.
[QUOTE=MysteriousPower;1029838]Here is an interesting debate, goju.
This guy says a person does not need to spar to develop fighting ability. If he wins against this gangbanger would that not prove his point? We will never know how skilled his opponent was but I think this might be interesting anyway.[/QUOTE]
not really my brother could go and beat up a guy on the street with no actual training…to actually have merrit you approach needs to be able to beat another trained skilled opponent, then maybe your approach is the correct one
and his arguement is flawed anyway he says he doesnt want to test against a fighter in a comp with rules and regs, but the mere fact his sifu knows these guys and will be there means there will be unwritten rules that will be followed.
its not a true street fight, its closer to a NHB match against an unskilled opponent
[QUOTE=Frost;1029839]not really my brother could go and beat up a guy on the street with no actual training…to actually have merrit you approach needs to be able to beat another trained skilled opponent, then maybe your approach is the correct one
and his arguement is flawed anyway he says he doesnt want to test against a fighter in a comp with rules and regs, but the mere fact his sifu knows these guys and will be there means there will be unwritten rules that will be followed.
its not a true street fight, its closer to a NHB match against an unskilled opponent[/QUOTE]
Point taken. I agree to a certain point. Suppose someone lives in a rough place and has survived many real street fights. These were not fights against trained fighters but others who have been in street fights. Would that not give some merit to a person as having some fighting ability? By winning numerous street ecounters a person has proven to have control over his adrenalin and fear. Discuss
[QUOTE=MysteriousPower;1029843]Point taken. I agree to a certain point. Suppose someone lives in a rough place and has survived many real street fights. These were not fights against trained fighters but others who have been in street fights. Would that not give some merit to a person as having some fighting ability? By winning numerous street ecounters a person has proven to have control over his adrenalin and fear. Discuss[/QUOTE]
sorry but there is nothing to discuss as we are not talking about the merrits/strengths of street fighters we are talking about testing your training methology.
he is saying his way produces a good fighter, the only way to objectivally test this theory is to fight someone with a proven track record.
A sanctioned event allows you to see the level of your opponent and how many fights he has had very easily. Now if you can varify the fight record of the street fighter you are going up against and prove he is a good fighter then you can still test your methology.
the thing about people who claim they are street fighters is their are numerous factors which makes their accomplishments in the street ( if you can call it that) insignificant
they could be jumping people, they could be using weapons, friends, fighting people much smaller than them, fighting drunks, the list goes on and on
now if youre actually go against someone who is well trained its a different matter its and honest realistic test of your abilties rather than test than can often favor you if youre trained
i never saw the point of street fighting didnt make me feel special and its too risky:D
I have seen Anderson Silva use TKD, I have seen Machida use Shotokan, and I have seen Rashad Evans use Monkey kung fu movements to affect takedowns.
More and more MMA guys are either reinventing the wheel or borrowing from traditional arts so I think that it is hard to say that the techniques don’t work and more to do with how things are trained.
I think that the people who have the most trouble with traditional arts are people who don’t know how to push themselves or aren’t interested in getting hit hard at all. So many TMAist who were softer than a pillow stuffed with bunnies are “hard” now because they can do BJJ, something where they don’t get hit. This forum is full of them.
I should say that a lot of these “mmaists” are really just BJJist because they still just LARP with their upright.
[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;1029884]I have seen Anderson Silva use TKD, I have seen Machida use Shotokan, and I have seen Rashad Evans use Monkey kung fu movements to affect takedowns.
More and more MMA guys are either reinventing the wheel or borrowing from traditional arts so I think that it is hard to say that the techniques don’t work and more to do with how things are trained.
I think that the people who have the most trouble with traditional arts are people who don’t know how to push themselves or aren’t interested in getting hit hard at all. So many TMAist who were softer than a pillow stuffed with bunnies are “hard” now because they can do BJJ, something where they don’t get hit. This forum is full of them.
I should say that a lot of these “mmaists” are really just BJJist because they still just LARP with their upright.[/QUOTE]
Rashad Evans has never done anything like monkey kung fu where the hell did you get that pearl from?!
As for the rest of your post, well where are all the traditionalists winning in MMA or K1 for that matter, Machida is the only person doing well in MMA with a traditonal background, all the others have trained thai or boxing (and no training TKD when you were 10 does not count) why do you think that is, where are all the rest?
[QUOTE=Frost;1029895]Rashad Evans has never done anything like monkey kung fu where the hell did you get that pearl from?!
[/QUOTE]
said monkey movements. I saw them with my own eyes. It is stuff straight out of the monkey kung fu play book. I doubt that he knows monkey so I am sure he just made it up which is fine. Since you don’t know any monkey kung fu, I am not sure why you are trying to comment.
[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;1029897]said monkey movements. I saw them with my own eyes. It is stuff straight out of the monkey kung fu play book. I doubt that he knows monkey so I am sure he just made it up which is fine. Since you don’t know any monkey kung fu, I am not sure why you are trying to comment.[/QUOTE]
I have seen a little monky kung fu sp maybe you could post a clip of it for us to see i would be in terested in seeing it?
[QUOTE=Frost;1029895]
As for the rest of your post, well where are all the traditionalists winning in MMA or K1 for that matter, Machida is the only person doing well in MMA with a traditonal background, all the others have trained thai or boxing (and no training TKD when you were 10 does not count) why do you think that is, where are all the rest?[/QUOTE]
Anderson Silva TKD.
“Big Country” Ultimate fighter winner Kung fu
Bas Rutten Kyo Kushin
Cung le TKD
What about the years of thai he has done, the clinch, the boxing the leg kicks they are all thai, as is his present training regime.
[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;1029899]
“Big Country” Ultimate fighter winner Kung fu[/QUOTE] …hes trained a lot but is known as a grappler, hes also trained boxing and god knows what
[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;1029899]
Bas Rutten Kyo Kushin[/QUOTE]
Baz has said himself he fights thai and thats where he really learned to fight
[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;1029899]
Cung le TKD[/QUOTE] high school grappler who trained 6 hours a day in sanshou with a san shou team
can you point to traditional only guys, not guys who did traditional arts in their youth then took up a sports art and occasionally bring out an old technique or two?
[QUOTE=Frost;1029900]What about the years of thai he has done, the clinch, the boxing the leg kicks they are all thai, as is his present training regime.[/QUOTE]
[/QUOTE]
You can’t ignore his TKD. He uses a side stance pretty frequently, low line side kicks, losts of snapping kicks.
[QUOTE=Frost;1029900]
…hes trained a lot but is known as a grappler, hes also trained boxing and god knows what
[/QUOTE]
No body is disparaging his striking
[QUOTE=Frost;1029900]
Baz has said himself he fights thai and thats where he really learned to fight
high school grappler who trained 6 hours a day in sanshou with a san shou team
[/QUOTE]
I would have to see that come out of his mouth.
[QUOTE=Frost;1029900]
can you point to traditional only guys, not guys who did traditional arts in their youth then took up a sports art and occasionally bring out an old technique or two?[/QUOTE]
The type of traditional guy you are talking about never really existed except for the LARPERS who were avoiding contact. Anybody trying to be credible would have a little judo, a little boxing, a little Blah blah.
[QUOTE=Frost;1029900]can you point to traditional only guys, not guys who did traditional arts in their youth then took up a sports art and occasionally bring out an old technique or two?[/QUOTE]
don’t you realize that it’s a classic case of exception proving the rule? or something like that…
the point is that, you can occasionally make some of the TMA stuff “work”, because it is outside of the usual “rhythm” of MMA; however, if u don’t have a solid base in MMA, thai, boxing, wrestling, etc., u won’t last long enough to get to the point where u can do that;
[QUOTE=Frost;1029898]I have seen a little monky kung fu sp maybe you could post a clip of it for us to see i would be in terested in seeing it?[/QUOTE]
Evans Jackson UFC 114? Rashad drops into a horse stance, leans over, flicks the jab, and goes in and scores a takedown. He does it a few times and it is something that he does fairly regularly. Both are pretty standard monkey tactics if you are talking about realistic monkey. If you are talking Paul E. Zink fantasy monkey, IDK. When I teach basic southern kung fu we teach a monkey stance and perform exactly the same techniques as Rashad. It’s all about throwing the opponent off with something unorthodox, scoring a cheep takedown because they don’t change levels with you. And back to standard tactics.
[QUOTE=taai gihk yahn;1029902]don’t you realize that it’s a classic case of exception proving the rule? or something like that…
the point is that, you can occasionally make some of the TMA stuff “work”, because it is outside of the usual “rhythm” of MMA; however, if u don’t have a solid base in MMA, thai, boxing, wrestling, etc., u won’t last long enough to get to the point where u can do that;
game over;[/QUOTE]
I am not sure when thai stopped being traditional. When they started selling certifications via distance and seminar?
Anyway, I don’t know of any martial arts that doesn’t require sound fundamentals. Do you? If you see a TKD fighter get completely crushed do you honestly think that his fundamentals were sound?
[QUOTE=Frost;1029895]Rashad Evans has never done anything like monkey kung fu where the hell did you get that pearl from?!
As for the rest of your post, well where are all the traditionalists winning in MMA or K1 for that matter, Machida is the only person doing well in MMA with a traditonal background, all the others have trained thai or boxing (and no training TKD when you were 10 does not count) why do you think that is, where are all the rest?[/QUOTE]
um last time i checked muy thai fit the criteria for a traditional style
its centuries old came fromt he orient,etc,etc thats pretty much a tma right there
granted it doesnt have forms but i dont see that as the key piece to making it a “traditional” art
and whats with this where do you see them do this and that? you said you have done kung fu for how many years now ? you should do by now we dont fight like a jet li movie
cross training in wrestling or mt doesnt make them less of a tradtionalist. if you are competing against people from outside of your art it only makes sense to spend time stufdying what you are going against so you are fully prepared
as has been noted anderson STILL does tkd ive posted those recent picks of him in his olympic tkd gear training
cung le routinely preformed text book tkd kicking combinations in his fights ( im a tkd guy so i think i would be able to reconize them)
he also of course did sanda and pulled out a fe wmoves from vietnamese kung fu like the leg scissor
andy hug cross trained in tkd ,kk karate and kung fu he even advertised these arts in his website
bas supposedly as ive heard has a fifth degree bb in kk and a 3rd in tkd which says he continued to study the arts through out his career to get that high of a rank
[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;1029905]I am not sure when thai stopped being traditional. [/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=goju;1029906]um last time i checked muy thai fit the criteria for a traditional style
its centuries old came fromt he orient,etc,etc thats pretty much a tma right there
granted it doesnt have forms but i dont see that as the key piece to making it a “traditional” art[/QUOTE]
contemporary MT is not “traditional” in the sense of an indigenous non-competition oriented martial system, as the current version is a relatively recent modification (~1850’s) of “traditional” Thai MA (muay boran); ontologically, it would be the equivalent of Judo to jujitsu or more recently WTF TKD relative to the older “kwans” (or even to taekyun, if there ever really was such a thing originally, but anyway…);
furthermore, MT utilizes a decidedly “modern” training regimine relative to more “traditional” systems;
the fact that it does NOT have forms would place it firmly in the minds of most “traditionalists” into a “non-traditional” category;
[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;1029905]Anyway, I don’t know of any martial arts that doesn’t require sound fundamentals. Do you? If you see a TKD fighter get completely crushed do you honestly think that his fundamentals were sound?[/QUOTE]
you can have strong fundamentals in one system and still get demolished by someone who has average fundamentals in another system (or none at all if they are an aggressive brawler w/experience in “t3h str33t”) depending on what each system considers fundamental and how they train it, which varies greatly;
as far as using TKD as an example of “sound fundamentals”, you are talking about a system that is almost two different arts at this point: the average WTF TKD school trains “traditional” stances, does one/three step-sparring, some self defense and those god-awful taeguek forms (the art), but then it essentially eschews all of it when it gets into sparring, which it trains almost completely differently, with strong emphasis on a relatively limited number of kics / kicking combos / strategies and minimal hand techniques, designed for the sole purpose of success in Olympic TKD style fighting (the sport); so it’s not much of a stretch to see a TKD fighter w/“sound fundamentals” get his asz handed to him in an MMA or “t3h str33t” situation, because the training is pigeon-holed pretty much from the get go (did a little TKD myself, WTF and Moo Duk Kwan, for ~10 yrs., so I have some basis in that as well)
[QUOTE=taai gihk yahn;1029911]contemporary MT is not “traditional” in the sense of an indigenous non-competition oriented martial system, as the current version is a relatively recent modification (~1850’s) of “traditional” Thai MA (muay boran); ontologically, it would be the equivalent of Judo to jujitsu or more recently WTF TKD relative to the older “kwans” (or even to taekyun, if there ever really was such a thing originally, but anyway…);
furthermore, MT utilizes a decidedly “modern” training regimine relative to more “traditional” systems;
the fact that it does NOT have forms would place it firmly in the minds of most “traditionalists” into a “non-traditional” category;[/QUOTE]
so it basically boils down to semantics and people who think traditional arts have never evolved over the centuries and shouldnt either lol oh boy
[QUOTE=taai gihk yahn;1029911]contemporary MT is not “traditional” in the sense of an indigenous non-competition oriented martial system, as the current version is a relatively recent modification (~1850’s) of “traditional” Thai MA (muay boran); ontologically, it would be the equivalent of Judo to jujitsu or more recently WTF TKD relative to the older “kwans” (or even to taekyun, if there ever really was such a thing originally, but anyway…);
furthermore, MT utilizes a decidedly “modern” training regimine relative to more “traditional” systems;
the fact that it does NOT have forms would place it firmly in the minds of most “traditionalists” into a “non-traditional” category;
you can have strong fundamentals in one system and still get demolished by someone who has average fundamentals in another system (or none at all if they are an aggressive brawler w/experience in “t3h str33t”) depending on what each system considers fundamental and how they train it, which varies greatly;
as far as using TKD as an example of “sound fundamentals”, you are talking about a system that is almost two different arts at this point: the average WTF TKD school trains “traditional” stances, does one/three step-sparring, some self defense and those god-awful taeguek forms (the art), but then it essentially eschews all of it when it gets into sparring, which it trains almost completely differently, with strong emphasis on a relatively limited number of kics / kicking combos / strategies and minimal hand techniques, designed for the sole purpose of success in Olympic TKD style fighting (the sport); so it’s not much of a stretch to see a TKD fighter w/“sound fundamentals” get his asz handed to him in an MMA or “t3h str33t” situation, because the training is pigeon-holed pretty much from the get go (did a little TKD myself, WTF and Moo Duk Kwan, for ~10 yrs., so I have some basis in that as well)[/QUOTE]
An art cant be traditional unless it has forms…Nope
Most of the Muay Thai in the U.S. isn’t traditional because it isn’t even Muay Thai. in some cases I barely sure that it is martial arts as we know it. Boxing coaches and BJJERS looking to diversify their business go to a MT camp and get a cert. It is straight toughman kickboxing.
As far as onestep sparring, if you aren’t doing a decent amount of it in your own training, you are missing a key element. It is the primary tool that instructors use to develop finesse.
So is WTF TKD a sport or a traditional art? You keep going back and fourth.
