[QUOTE=SoCo KungFu;1029643]Will this transformation involve dairy products and female anatomical structure?[/QUOTE]
Milkshakes and handjobs for all my friends!
I’m so tired of this argument as well, somehow before the existance of MMA, we were incapable of fighting effecitively…oops I mean with ‘aliveness’. What a crock of crap. This have a groud game or walk away in shame is BS…I must admit my idea of a good time or good training does NOT involve me rolling around in some dudes guard. This fairy tale of 75%-90% of all fights end up on the ground is pure fiction…now there is a 75-90% chance that one of the combatants ends up on the ground is believable.
I like TCMA for several reasons, one like Bawang stated, its about culture and history…for me its also about fantasy (easy lads easy)…I get to be an ancient martial artist, learning to fight with exotic weapons that you would never get to use in modern day. Its about fitness, I like the fact that after practicing for 3-4 years in CLF/Chi Kung…I wouldn’t feel like I had mastered most of it…it would take many more years. Most modern arts you can feel really confortable in mastering them in that same 3-4 years. This martial arts insecurity thing is amusing to me…like the UFC and MMA are the only ‘REAL’ examples of fighting and what ‘works’ (as long as there’s a ref, timed rounds, no weapons, only one opponent, protective gear, and illegal blows that you’d be penalized with).
tma are not inferior or lacking.
if they were, they wouldn’t be the wellspring everyone visits.
[QUOTE=Dragonzbane76;1029198]Saw this posted in another thread and thought it would be a good discussion.
Sorry to whom ever this was that posted in WC forum for stealing your thread. 
discuss[/QUOTE]
Mostly just n training method. If a TMA use modern training methods, you can feel pretty good about it.
Thank you for your replies, but everyone’s experience is different… I would like to share my theories with stories to back them up.
I was once showing 2 friends what taichi was in a park. One who done Muy Thai, one who was a Wrestler in High School. At this time I was not with my current teacher, and I was learning BS from someone who really didnt know Taichi. I knew this so I studied from DVDs, and learned the forms and “applications” alone and practiced daily with an imaginary opponent. I probably had 3 years training just forms with very little partner training at this point. I was showing the wrestler what sticky hands was, and he was rushing in trying to hit me and access my center while I stuck to him. He kept getting closer, and on his 3rd attempt, I side stepped 90 degrees and used needle at the bottom of the sea. No thought was involved, it happened naturally, he lost his balance and stumbled like 15 feet away. There is no 90 degree step in needle at the bottom of the sea, and I had, at that point, never seen it used in that context before. So this, for me, proves that direction training is not 100% necessary, I jsut treated every movement as 1 individual movement. It also proved to me partner training for each movement is not necessary. But thats for you to decide.
Another example was at work, after I was with my current teacher for about a year. There was a guy that liked to test me cuz he knew I did MA. One day he threw a punch at me that came close to my face. I used press to move the punch away and chopped at his neck, as in some of the movements in the 48 movement form. I did not think, it came naturally. I never practiced this application and it is not referenced anywhere online, or anywhere I ever heard of. I just done the forms repeatedly, and it just happened.
Another expample was when I went home to visit my family. I had started stationary push hands at this time. I do agree that push hands does help learn how to feel the opponent, guage distance, and utilize the attackers force, so it is a necessary tool, but at this time I had not sparred at all. 3 of my brothers wanted to test me out to see what I had. One of my brothers ran up and tried to hit me with a sucker punch. I used a movement from Wudang Taichi to nuetralize and send him off balance. Then the other 2 came in, I used movements from Yang and Chen to evade, and escape, and drunken footwork to bring them in between eachother. after a while, they the grabbed me, and tried to bring me to the ground. One tried an armbar, which I used the unbendable arm to counter while keeping the other away using snake techniques. When my brother gave up on the armbar, the other tried to get me in the sleeper, when I used a drunken boxing technique to escape, and thats when they gave up. The point of this story is that with no sparring or technical trianing, only form practice and push hands, I was able to defend myself against 3 opponents.
So if that is the case, why is all that other stuff necessary?
[QUOTE=tiaji1983;1029693]So if that is the case, why is all that other stuff necessary?[/QUOTE]
first, from what you describe in terms of how they tried to play with you they all sound like a bunch of scrubs;
but even if not, more importantly, in none of these cases was any of the people you mentioned actually trying to seriously cause you bodily harm - they were all friends, relatives, co-workers, etc. who were trying to “test you out”, so in essence it was all just play - they were not fellow people seriously training with you who were pushing you hard to work what u had realistically, they were not competing full-contact against you trying to KYTFO, and they were not trying to kick your asz for realz on t3h str33t;
context is a vital component, and u need to pressure test what you know realistically; but hey, if u think that solo training forms is sufficient to get u out of a high-pressure situation, that’s cool;
[QUOTE=Hebrew Hammer;1029680]I like TCMA for several reasons, [/QUOTE]
In TCMA, there are always 2 kind of applications for each move. The “sport” application that you use in a friendly sport environment, and the “combat” application that you use against unfriendly challengers or life threaten situation. By using the front cut (Osoto Gari) as example, if you just want to throw your opponent, you can just push at your opponent’s shoulder and kick his leg off the ground. If you want to hurt your opponent badly, you can twist your leg on your opponent’s leg and then sit down on his knee joint sideway. The TCMA can give you both options.
http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/osotogari.htm
[QUOTE=SoCo KungFu;1029626]The rest would be nacho cheese and Brazilian women…[/QUOTE]
I don’t like cheese..
[QUOTE=Hebrew Hammer;1029680]I’m so tired of this argument as well, somehow before the existance of MMA, we were incapable of fighting effecitively…oops I mean with ‘aliveness’. What a crock of crap. This have a groud game or walk away in shame is BS…I must admit my idea of a good time or good training does NOT involve me rolling around in some dudes guard. This fairy tale of 75%-90% of all fights end up on the ground is pure fiction…now there is a 75-90% chance that one of the combatants ends up on the ground is believable.
I like TCMA for several reasons, one like Bawang stated, its about culture and history…for me its also about fantasy (easy lads easy)…I get to be an ancient martial artist, learning to fight with exotic weapons that you would never get to use in modern day. Its about fitness, I like the fact that after practicing for 3-4 years in CLF/Chi Kung…I wouldn’t feel like I had mastered most of it…it would take many more years. Most modern arts you can feel really confortable in mastering them in that same 3-4 years. This martial arts insecurity thing is amusing to me…like the UFC and MMA are the only ‘REAL’ examples of fighting and what ‘works’ (as long as there’s a ref, timed rounds, no weapons, only one opponent, protective gear, and illegal blows that you’d be penalized with).[/QUOTE]
why does everyone always assume us MMA guys want to go to the ground? 
i am just as happy fecking you up standing and in the clinch 
can i ask which modern arts you mastered in 3 years? i have deen doing thai/boxing for about a decade and grappling for about 7 years and still have only scratched the surface…the difference is after 6 months to a year most of our guys are comfortable in a fight and know they can look after themselves and use what they know, not sure i can say the same about the old CMA i sued to do or the people that trained it
As for the comment nothing was wrong with TCMA and the way it was trained and those guys could still fight before the UFC please watch the early UFCs and the gracies challanges to see just how deluded most TCMA schools were back then (myself included lol)
its not the only venue to test yourself, but if you cant win with limited rules, 1 on 1 and without weapons in the mix what the feck makes you think you can win when those things are added?
[QUOTE=tiaji1983;1029693]Thank you for your replies, but everyone’s experience is different… I would like to share my theories with stories to back them up.
I was once showing 2 friends what taichi was in a park. One who done Muy Thai, one who was a Wrestler in High School. At this time I was not with my current teacher, and I was learning BS from someone who really didnt know Taichi. I knew this so I studied from DVDs, and learned the forms and “applications” alone and practiced daily with an imaginary opponent. I probably had 3 years training just forms with very little partner training at this point. I was showing the wrestler what sticky hands was, and he was rushing in trying to hit me and access my center while I stuck to him. He kept getting closer, and on his 3rd attempt, I side stepped 90 degrees and used needle at the bottom of the sea. No thought was involved, it happened naturally, he lost his balance and stumbled like 15 feet away. There is no 90 degree step in needle at the bottom of the sea, and I had, at that point, never seen it used in that context before. So this, for me, proves that direction training is not 100% necessary, I jsut treated every movement as 1 individual movement. It also proved to me partner training for each movement is not necessary. But thats for you to decide.
Another example was at work, after I was with my current teacher for about a year. There was a guy that liked to test me cuz he knew I did MA. One day he threw a punch at me that came close to my face. I used press to move the punch away and chopped at his neck, as in some of the movements in the 48 movement form. I did not think, it came naturally. I never practiced this application and it is not referenced anywhere online, or anywhere I ever heard of. I just done the forms repeatedly, and it just happened.
Another expample was when I went home to visit my family. I had started stationary push hands at this time. I do agree that push hands does help learn how to feel the opponent, guage distance, and utilize the attackers force, so it is a necessary tool, but at this time I had not sparred at all. 3 of my brothers wanted to test me out to see what I had. One of my brothers ran up and tried to hit me with a sucker punch. I used a movement from Wudang Taichi to nuetralize and send him off balance. Then the other 2 came in, I used movements from Yang and Chen to evade, and escape, and drunken footwork to bring them in between eachother. after a while, they the grabbed me, and tried to bring me to the ground. One tried an armbar, which I used the unbendable arm to counter while keeping the other away using snake techniques. When my brother gave up on the armbar, the other tried to get me in the sleeper, when I used a drunken boxing technique to escape, and thats when they gave up. The point of this story is that with no sparring or technical trianing, only form practice and push hands, I was able to defend myself against 3 opponents.
So if that is the case, why is all that other stuff necessary?[/QUOTE]
can i ask, have you ever actually really sparred or had a fight (or even trained with anyone)
[QUOTE=Frost;1029739]why does everyone always assume us MMA guys want to go to the ground? i am just as happy fecking you up standing and in the clinch
[/QUOTE]
Yep. I don’t “want” to get in a fight period. Fighting isn’t about “want.” If I’m throwing punches in public then sh!ts already gone downhill. At that point its about being prepared for everything. My striking is my best skill. I just so happen to be getting pretty decent at BJJ and I can defend myself on the ground should things go there. It has absolutely nothing to do with what I “want.” If that were the case I’d be drinking Canadian beer watching Brazilian women wrestle in Americanized, Mexican nacho cheese…
[QUOTE=Frost;1029739]
can i ask which modern arts you mastered in 3 years?[/QUOTE]
Valid question, and I have mastered none, but I have done MMA training and TCMA each for about a 1yr in length…I enjoy both I just feel that TCMA has much more complexity and richness to it…its my opinion, I love UFC and MMA as well and think it is a very efficient and effective fighting system. I just dont believe it is necessarily superior.
Its great that you aren’t into the ground portion of MMA, I believe you don’t have to be but you should know how to defend against taken downs and chokes as part of your martial arts training.
[QUOTE=Hebrew Hammer;1029755]Valid question, and I have mastered none, but I have done MMA training and TCMA each for about a 1yr in length…I enjoy both I just feel that TCMA has much more complexity and richness to it…its my opinion, I love UFC and MMA as well and think it is a very efficient and effective fighting system. I just dont believe it is necessarily superior.
Its great that you aren’t into the ground portion of MMA, I believe you don’t have to be but you should know how to defend against taken downs and chokes as part of your martial arts training.[/QUOTE]
I am actually very into the grappling game, I have competed and won at various grappling comps, but I have also trained extensively in stand up and clinch and know I can hang with good guys standing and beat a fair few in the clinch.
I did TCMA for 10 years and TMA for 15 in total, and have done sports for a decade or so both are rich, both are complex but the difference is where as TCMA is rich and complex in areas that are both fighting and non fighting related, sport arts are complex in the fighting arena and everything it does is to make you a better fighter, it has no pretensions to make you a better more spiritual person.
Both get you fit, both allow you to learn new things and both can be great fun.
as for not knowing the ground well i think everyone should be comfortable down there from a self defence perspective, how much time you spent working it is a personal matter…ladies i would suggest they spend a majority of time down there, men i would suggest spend more time in the clinch but thats just my view
To answer your question Frost, yes I have been in a real fight, and yes I have seen real violence. The area I grew up in were full of gangs. My family was involved with one gang, and the rest of the neighborhood was another, so we were fighting all the time. Also I been in the military, so I have seen “pressure training”… Have I been in a real fight since I been trained in TCMA? No. Lately I have been able to avoid fights for the most part. I feel the training has changed my perceptions on things. I have been in one situation where a guy grabbed my arm and wouldnt let it go. He was about 4 times my size, so I used needle at the bottom of the sea, he swung and I avoided the attack and it was broken up immediately. Other than that, no no fights since I been trained.
I do train with other people. I have done light sparring with people outside of my school. The Muy Thai guy I mentioned was one of them. He was a decent tournament fighter. I also train with other people at the school I train at. My teacher doesnt like us to spar each other because the way we are trained. But we do drills and work with bags and stuff like that. We do not train applications in a way where we actually fight each other. Our teacher demonstrates the application, and its our job to research and develop them. We practice the form in full, imagining an opponent. Then we do each movement and research each movmement individually to learn as many possibilities as we can with the movement. Then we try it on eachother or on freinds, or on the streets. I like to try the things I learn on different people, and I been doing that long enough to tell what works and what doesnt. then whenever we do the movement in the form, all the possiblities are trained at the same time, and eventually they come out by themselves. There is no need for sparring, or bagwork. Im sure a lot of people here would frown at that, but thats the way it is… I do use bagwork to develop sensitivity for push hands, and I use it to practice striking.
I am very sure it will work in a real fight situation because I have been in fights before. I have seen fights before. I know how a lot of stuff goes down. Since the way we train, the movements come out naturally, I am confident in what we are learning. Sometimes it even comes out naturally when we dont want it to. An example of that was one time a girl got mad at me and grabbed my shirt in a threatining manner. I didnt think, just reacted, I grabbed her hand and done a roll back, and her face almost hit the wall. Luckily I realized what Iwas doing and stopped in time…
Another example of it coming naturally, would be there was a martial artist who trains military personnel, special forces and green barrets. He was trained in Traditional Shotokan Karate and Military Jiujitsu. He was very good and was known for throwing his biggers students around like rag dolls, in training and if he was attacked in a real life situation. He was by no means weak or ill trained even though he was older. He was doing a demonstration at our school, and thought TCMA was just forms and Qigong. He wanted to make an example of me by showing a wrist lock which I let him do. Then he started talking like we were inferior, so I asked if I could show him a counter. He tried again and I used the unbendable arm technique, and he could not lock my wrist. Then he threw a punch to demonstrate what he would do, which was pretty fast. I was able to deflect and he threw anohter punch. I deflected and stopped short of slapping his head. He looked shocked, and then said “too late!” to save face, then he asked to try again. we did almost the same thing, accept he tried to surprise me with a knee, and i used golden rooster stands on one leg. His knee fell short of mine and hit my calve. he then shy’d away and said he won because the knee was the weakest part of the body and he hit my knee. I said “thank you sifu”, and let him keep his dignity. THere was no need to embarass him infront of his students when it was only a demo. I didnt think to do any of that, it all just happened naturally.
I do not think or do not agree, that syles like muy thai or jiujitsu or MMA are not valid on the streets. But people that train for competitions train for competitions, not the streets. I do not believe that any art is better than any other, just different people train different. Thats the purpose of my posting on here, to show that TCMA are not invalid, and that the Traditional Training Methods are not invalid. My teacher is going to have us go to the ghetto part of town to a place were guaranteed to get into a fight before he certifies us as a Sifu. When I get into that fight, if I still have the computer, I will gladly post the results on here.
My teacher is going to have us go to the ghetto part of town to a place were guaranteed to get into a fight before he certifies us as a Sifu. When I get into that fight, if I still have the computer, I will gladly post the results on here.
wow that’s probably not a good idea… Most of the people I know in the “ghetto” would just shot your a$$ instead of fight. Why would you be stupid and do something like that?
I grew up in those kinds of areas. Plus my teacher is well known there, and he has connections with a gang that runs things in that area. With what he was saying about the place we would be, I would be more worried about a knife or getting jumped than a gun. Plus the problems tend to stay in that area unless things get serious, so Im not too worried about retaliation. And my teacher would be there as an equalizer. Either way, I would rather test my skills in a semi controlled environment with someone I know who has the ill intention than in a ring where theres rules and regulations to stop the fight before it begins…
[QUOTE=tiaji1983;1029820]I grew up in those kinds of areas. Plus my teacher is well known there, and he has connections with a gang that runs things in that area. With what he was saying about the place we would be, I would be more worried about a knife or getting jumped than a gun. Plus the problems tend to stay in that area unless things get serious, so Im not too worried about retaliation. And my teacher would be there as an equalizer. Either way, I would rather test my skills in a semi controlled environment with someone I know who has the ill intention than in a ring where theres rules and regulations to stop the fight before it begins…[/QUOTE]
yep because the last thing you want to do is actually try your skills against a trained opponent who knows how to fight back and who you have no controll over, far better to try it on with a friend of your teacher :rolleyes:
lol no it wouldnt be my friend or a teacher. It would be someone I dont know. Just there would be precautions taken…
[QUOTE=tiaji1983;1029820]I grew up in those kinds of areas. Plus my teacher is well known there, and he has connections with a gang that runs things in that area. With what he was saying about the place we would be, I would be more worried about a knife or getting jumped than a gun. Plus the problems tend to stay in that area unless things get serious, so Im not too worried about retaliation. And my teacher would be there as an equalizer. Either way, I would rather test my skills in a semi controlled environment with someone I know who has the ill intention than in a ring where theres rules and regulations to stop the fight before it begins…[/QUOTE]
Not to burst your bubble or anything but it sounds like you are going to just be having a bareknuckled sparring match with some guy on the street. Would not it be safer to soar with someone from another school? Why set up this elaborate sparring match in the ghetto? Unless your opponent is from Japan and you are a wrestler from Russia(Blood Sport reference).
By the way don’t say the word ghetto around here cause some people get offended easily. Lol
wouldnt it prove more if you actually sparred or even a trained person vs some bum hanging around on the corner looking for a fight?
I mean in the small handfullof street fights ive been in when i was younger the personS i had a fights with didnt really know how to defend themselves at all so it didnt really prove much besides the fact i could beat up a person who didnt know how to fight
set up an actual fight with some who trains so you can actually test yourself and stay out of jail, the hospital or the morgue:p