Tired of the Bruce Lee myth: lets look at the facts.....

Martial Media, Culture and Other Arts Martial Media and Popular Culture
21

I don’t think jojitsu hates bruce at all.I think what he is trying to say is that bruce lee is not invincible.No one is.He was a man like all of us.
Not only that but he was saying that people take the image of bruce lee and exagerated to an unbelievable extent.

I had uncles tell me that bruce was the real deal,that he could break through walls and jump ten feet high plus all that other stuff.The truth is that he was a matial artist exploring new ways for himself trying to perfect his fighting ability just like anyone else.I myself can never say he was really good,but I cannot deny that he wasn’t.Like someone else said I’m not a fan of bruce lee.I do give him some credit though for he was a martial artist.I heard that he was a slacker and I heard how he was so good,a very tough fighter.It’s hard to say.

Was Bruce Lee a martial artist?yes

Was Bruce Lee an actor?yes

Did he try to perfect himself?yes

WAs he invincible?no,because no one is.

I can’t say anything more since I do not know more than the average person about him.

“Always be ready”

22

You’re right GSD, but they didn’t switch over to do what Lee was doing. Also Norris hasn’t rejected TSD the way Lee rejected his base art, but has added to it. Lee also didn’t invent crosstraining. Bruce Lees greatest contribution was kicking over the MA can, disrupting things a bit, in much the same way the Gracies did in the 90’s.

The problem with taking Lees quotes or what he was doing and basing your MA beliefs on it is that it was like he said, a process. He wasn’t finished. Wasn’t he was closing down his school and shutting the door on JKD when he died? No one knows where he might have ended up, he might have revisited his roots and found things there that he might have missed the first time through.

23

Rogue,

Did Bruce really reject Wing Chun, was that his message? If it was then why did he still have so much Wing Chun in his style of fighting and why did he still train it and practice it with other Wing Chun stylist up to his death? I think you are missing the point and I think Norris and Lewis got the point. Do your own thing, question what you do and how you do it and then do it better. I think the only thing Bruce Lee rejected was blind faith. I didn’t see anything in that article that stated he rejected Wing Chun, nor did I see anything that stated you had to do it his way. If you ask me Lewis and Norris got the message and are doing there own thing call it whatever you want but now you can’t really name the style they do anymore and that’s the point, is Norris a TSD stylist, or maybe a Ed Parker Kenpo stylist, or maybe a BJJ stylist, or could he be a Thai Boxer, etc. :smiley: -ED

“The grappling arts imply most fights end up on the ground…take them there. The striking arts imply all fights start standing up…keep them there. The mixed martial arts imply any fight can go anywhere…be ready and able to go everywhere.”-a mix martial artist

24

I remain unconvinced that Bruce Lee truly hated forms.

Otherwise, he wouldn’t have been friends with so many kung fu men.

I think what he really meant to say was that doing forms without fighting would not help a person get better at fighting.

Otherwise he would never had allowed his first book to have stayed in circulation.

Jojitsu27, I’d still take Lee over any of those guys in a streetfight, where eyejabs, biting, and all sorts of evil tricks that you can see in Lee’s eyes but not in his print are permissible.

You do WC. You can SEE that Lee has the eyes of a KILLER.

25

Mantis 108

Actually, the Shaolin temple was a FORUM for cross-training. Famous fighters came from all over China to teach and be taught by the monks–which is why we have so many styles with the name “Shaolin” in them.

I believe that Bruce was a capable fighter, but I don’t believe that he was all that some would crack him up to be. According to Joe Svinth, when Lee returned to Hong Kong after his Hollywood dreams petered out, he went back to Yip’s studio and got his ASS handed to him by the senior students.

Taking what is useful is all well and good, but you have to stay with a style long enough to FIND OUT what is useful–a year or three don’t cut it (well, maybe for tae kwon do). There are hundreds of years of research in a good martial art, which are not usually handed out freely.

And mixing martial arts was hardly a Lee innovation. Americans just hadn’t had martial arts long enough to try it yet. How many martial arts MASTERS can you name who only study one style?

Jason C. Diederich

<A HREF=“http://www.geocities.com/shaolinninjamarine/” TARGET=“_blank”>http://www.geocities.com/shaolinninjamarine/&lt;/A&gt;

26

“Taking what is useful is all well and good, but you have to stay with a style long enough to FIND OUT what is useful–a year or three don’t cut it (well, maybe for tae kwon do). There are hundreds of years of research in a good martial art, which are not usually handed out freely.”

That’s my take as well. As far as the Chuck Norris example–I admit I don’t know much about the ranking system of BJJ–but I assume that Chuck didn’t just train BJJ for a short while and then claimed to have taken the best from BJJ. I’m guessing that he humbled himself, started at the bottom, and worked hard over a long period of time learning the basic, intermediate and advanced techniques and strategies, until knowledgeable BJJ people granted him a high official rank–exactly the same way he learned Tang Soo Do. That’s the way to crosstrain, in my opinion.

27

The problem is(as I see it) that we are looking at what Bruce Lee did through historical hindsight. Nowadays everyone advocates cross training and street applicability.

Back then you took one style and many times you would have been kicked out for going to another school to learn at the same time. Also, many schools today realize that different body types will perform the moves differently, back then everyone did it the same way (“Do” vs. “jutsu”).

From what I have read (I claim no expertise) JKD wasn’t so much for a new beginner as it was for an experienced martial artist to further expand what he knew by filling in the gaps of his base art. Again, back then everyone’s art was “THE ART” to study and was invincible. Bruce realized that all arts had strong points and weak points and to find ways to fill in the weak points.

Having said that I agree with his concepts of that. I feel that today too many people don’t have a base system that they have a GOOD foundation in to realize where the weaknesses might be. I know for me the more I study the more I realize that it has answers to areas I thought were lacking just because I wasn’t there yet in my training. In this months blackbelt there is an article where the guy states to only study a style for 6 months before moving on because you will learn the most applicable techs in that time. WHAT???

To me this is the Bruce Lee mess that was left by what he started and never finished because he died.

“There are many who talk of the Way, but few who walk the Way.”

28

I don’t hate Bruce Lee…

I think everyone here who thinks I hate Bruce Lee or am just trying to bash him in some way are missing my point.
I don’t hate Bruce Lee, I don’t hate anyone! Hate is not a part of my belief system.
I just don’t think Lee was the great God of fighting that many here make him out to be.
If you want to idolize fighters, idolize the real ones like Sakuraba.
Lee was a great Movie Star, Martial Artist, and thinker. Let’s leave it at that!
-jojitsu27

29

Something I wanted to clear up…

With the Concepts of JKD in mind, there really is no base art or style if you really think about it. There is only what works and what doesn’t, where you get it doesn’t matter as long as it works. Those that study JKD under a JKD instructor are basically using those instructor’s experiences as a guild post. Most JKD instructors often study other arts on there own, in fact most hold ranking in a number of other arts, one of the instructors I trained with, an original Bruce Lee student, not only was certified by Dan Inosanto, but was also certified with the Olympic Training Center as a coach and official with USA Boxing, and a Kru in Muay Thai, recognized by the Council o Grandmasters of the Philippines as Ninth degree Black Belt (Grandmaster) in Doce Pares Eskrima, not to mention a blue belt in BJJ. Many spend years researching other systems from Savate, to Muay Thai, to Judo, to whatever interests them. Hell, Burton Richardson went all the way to Africa to research tribal fighting systems. I stopped officially studying under a certified JKD instructor just over a year or so ago and have been researching things on my own, but whatever it is, BJJ, Muay Thai, Shooto…I still consider it my own personal favor of JKD. What you guys are failing to see is that you need to stop seeing things as this style or that style and maybe just look at it as what works for you and what doesn’t. One of the problems with JKD that messes it all up, is that Bruce and then his followers had to call it something.-ED

“The grappling arts imply most fights end up on the ground…take them there. The striking arts imply all fights start standing up…keep them there. The mixed martial arts imply any fight can go anywhere…be ready and able to go everywhere.”-a mix martial artist

30

JOJITSU…you missed the whole point I posted…I’ve seen your post in UG and several other post…and you do RAG on BRUCE…as much as trolls be ragging on RICKSON! Just let it be…

A

31

Shaolinninjamarine

Cool handle, dude

I understand where you are coming from. Regarding the terms, there might have been a confussion on my part.

Cross Training seems to have 2 layers of meaning for many people. Perhaps, it would be clearer to said that Bruce Lee bring the atheleticism in, or back in, the martial arts into the lime light (pun intended). May be I have misused the term. I am aware of the “forum” function of Shaolin temple and I have always believed that masters were and are very open minded on exchange info to better themselves and in turn better their arts.

The comparsion drawn here was that while most Shaolin masters exchanged ideas and made adjustments to their own style, the respect for the style and effort to maintain integrity of a style were genuine. I see it as honoring the arts as both intellectual and empirial a body of knowledge accumulated through out the ages. In Bruce case, however, it’s more a “I challenge; therefore, I exsist.” attutide. It is my way or the highway. It would seem in his actions (slighting of styles - a publice facade perhaps?) , he was more interested in his cosmos truth than what he insisted on attaining universal truth. I think that articulate the linear mindset of Mixed Martial Arts. Nothing wrong with that although it is limiting to me. I am sure many would argue it’s just the opposite. May be in his private moments, he might have felt that Shaolin traditions are valid. Who can really tell about him? Remeber the ultimate trick of the devil is that he convinces everybody that he never exsisted.

Mantis108

Contraria Sunt Complementa

32

The facts

I have nothing against Bruce Lee.I liked his movies and his style(or lack of it!)greatly intrigued me.He had lots of charisma and influenced me in some ways.I became interrested in wing chun when I learned that was his style!Of course,I was puzzled when I realised(when I knew a little about w.c.) how far away he really was from wing chun in his movie work.IMO,he went trough some stages in his life and carrer.First he was a "classical"student in Hong Kong,learning a significant part of his system but still with a long way to go toward mastership.Then,we find him teaching in America,mostly to fellow college students.His teaching seems to be some w.c. along with his own concepts,“to fill the holes”.Then,there is the stage when he reject the "classical"mess as he said.He is a star now and can charge lots of$$$ for an hour of instruction.There is also some rejection by his old master who refuse to consider him more than his other students by giving him special favors.He knew then that he would never be the no:1 in wing chun and turn away from it for good.So he becames the “rebel” of the m.a. He became the grand-master of his own style while at the same time telling everybody that it was really no style at all.Being mysterious somehow as always being a good seller and he made many followers.IMO,without putting him down in any ways, I wonder if any of this would have taken place if he had the opportunity to complete his study of wing chun in the first place? Maybe it’s better the way it is? he is maybe a myth and a legend but in a way he was good for the martial arts

C’est la vie!

33

well said…

well said old jong! I think you hit
the nail on the head.
-jojitsu27

34

That’s also the way I see it old jong.

No matter what though, the guy has inspired untold numbers of people to take up the MA, and not to mention being an agent of change in the MA field long after his death. So props to Bruce Lee for that.

He was also a great self-promoter and must have a big old grin on his face right now.

35

I owe Bruce gratitude, if it wasn’t for his movies, I may have never studied MA as a kid. But, I also blaim him for the American MA mess. Bruce started this discard what doesn’t work crap, IMHO most who discard technique havent explored it enough or practiced it enough to find value in it. I have never been showed a technique that I felt was worthless, it all has some value, even if its value is what not to do. Bruce was the first to start his own style by borrowing from others. Bruces ideas of non static arts and evolution he took from Ed Parker. The man became quite nuts, dishing out the most basic lessons of Buddhism and taoism to the American camera as if he was a wise and great master. For those of you who pattern your life after him, I say wake up, Bruce’s path led to his death in his earlie 30’s and if you desire an early death, please follow his lead. Truth is, Bruce insulted his master and the great masters of his time, not because he taught outsiders, but because his ego was out of controll. All I see Bruce did for Martial Arts is to increase its presence and establish it as an American film genra’, however i think he may have hurt it just as much. Bruce should have read more about the middle path and moderation, mabey then he would have grown into a wise man instead of a dead fool!

36

Don’t blame Bruce for the current state of martial arts. He died in 1972 and had no influence over things that occurred AFTER his death.

As far as Bruce’s dishing out “Buddhism and Taoism like he was a great master” goes, remember that he was a Chinese guy who grew up in a Confucian household and culture.

Non-Chinese people (and many Chinese people today) don’t realize how different Hong Kong was in those days. Back then, traditional Chinese influences featuring Buddhist/Taoist tenets were very strong - unlike today. Bruce Lee, as a typical traditional Chinese young boy, was exposed to this stuff every waking moment of his life.

In my trained Buddhist opinion, Bruce Lee had every right to dish out those concepts that he had so thoroughly mastered. No harm was done by doing it, either.

I wasn’t there, so I can’t say if Ed Parker truly taught Bruce Lee about nonstatic arts and evolution. Something inside me tells me that it was actually the other way around, especially since the concepts of nonstatics arts and evolution are classical Buddhist and Taoist concepts that were once taught in every Chinese elementary school.

Bruce Lee was hardly the first to start his own style by borrowing from others. Since the beginning of time, styles have been created on the foundations of others. Jigoro Kano did it, the Gracies did it, Morihei Ueshiba did it, EVERYONE did it.

As far as those that pattern themselves after Bruce Lee, I don’t know anybody that does. I know people that revere his teaching and regard him as a special martial artist, but I don’t know anybody who imitates him outright. Lee would’ve laughed at them!

We can speculate on why Bruce Lee died, but we don’t really know WHY he was allergic to that medication that killed him. Nor do we know if his lifestyle caused his death - at least the doctors don’t.

It’s silly to call Lee a “fool” for dying at 30 when the finest medical minds of the day couldn’t figure out why he died.

37

GSD is right…yall are missing the point!

JKD is not about rejecting any particular style or worshipping the ground Bruce Lee walked on. It is simply about finding your own path through your own experience and being open minded to any approach. To the day of his death bruce had great respect for ANYONE regardless of style who had an open minded, realistic no nonsense approach to fighting and the martial arts. If he was as adamantly against anything having to do with classical styles (as most of you seem to think) then why would he continue to work with and associate with his old wing chun brothers such as Hawkins Cheung? Because Cheung, much like Bruce, is not concerned about the showy facade and ritualistic BS and politics that surrounds the martial arts community. All he is concerned about is what works. And why did Bruce have a long association with Ed Parker? Because unlike many other blind sheep classical martial artists, Parker was extremely open minded and wanted to do whatever he could to further the knowledge level and development of effective martial arts. Ed Parker did a lot to increase knowledge about different martial arts in his day, much like Dan inosanto has done recently. So you see, its not the style that matters…it’s the APPROACH. Many people were offended by the way Bruce openly pointed out weaknesses in various styles. They thought to themselves, “who the hell is HE to tell me what’s wrong with the techniques I’ve been practicing for my entire life?? He’s an idiot!” THAT, my friends, is the problem right there! Styles are created by men so ultimately, none of them are perfect and are bound to have shortcomings. By criticizing certain techniques or practices, Bruce was not trying to be arrogant or disrespectful (although he may have come off that way) but was merely exercising the attitude of objectiveness and constant improvement that he felt was essential to martial arts training. The problem with many traditionalists is that they have such absolute faith and contentment in one style that they fight progress and continued development beyond their acquired comfort zone. Bruce saw that with many of them (especially in the Chinese martial arts community) if their style is faced with a limitation, it becomes THEIR limitation. Some people simply refuse to accept the fact that the one pure, traditional, unchanged for a thousand years style of MA that they’ve dedicated 30 years of their life to simply doesn’t have ALL the answers and that ultimately, the truth is found through unlimited personal research and open mindedness. That is what JKD is supposed to be about.

I personally do not deitize Bruce. I never said that he was a fighting god or that he’d mop up the floor with Frank Shamrock and Vanderlei Silva. And I do not think that he was infallible. in fact i’m quite certain he made many mistakes and i don’t necessarily agree with everything he said or did. I simply respect his vision of training and admire him for his work ethic and contribution. As for being dedicated to one style all your life…who the hell cares? Bruce was dedicated to training like a fanatic. Just because he did it his own way and used many influences instead of being strictly a wing chun man doesn’t mean that he wasn’t any good.

“Shoot Wrestling’s effectiveness stems from the way it gears its grappling toward taking a kickboxer down and its kickboxing toward keeping a grappler off. Combined, they are a pretty good mixture.”
-Erik Paulson