MP
I was only kidding - looking for a reason why your head hurt 
I know what you mean. Why get more complicated than you have to. If you are interested in how to derive the maths, then that’s fine. If all you want is the formula, then that is fine as well because ultimately when you are doing the calculations, both ways will get you there in the end.
I usually find that people that really talk deep about simple statements and people that make concrete statements regardin subjects that are very general usually don’t really know what they’re talking about. They hang on to the people that get suckered in and carefully avoid the people with half a brain that might call them out.
Remeber the old adage (that applies to people like Sonnon in my mind):
“If you can’t dazzle 'em with science, baffle 'em with bullsh!t!”
Serpent,
Very true!
I judge not on big words myself but on what the teacher teaches, though in my naive past I have fallen for that before, which at this point, I am only going on the positive infoI hear from some others, though I have never met the man nor seen him teach in person.
As I say each to their own,
Peace
Certainly. I’ve never crossed hands with him. I’d love to meet him and feel his “knowledge”. And hopefully he would be a good practitioner. That’s what I’d like to discover. Although, I’m more inclined to consider him somewhat average.
Either way I’d tell him to stop being such a w@nker and to stop speaking like he has all the answers!
well, like most everyone else, i think his case was overstated. too black and white. the categories seemed to describe, perhaps, teaching or learning styles rather than martial arts styles. i also believe that most curricula are a combination of these different approaches. and i disagree with mr. sonnon that ‘real life’ keeps things like this in distinct categories.
that said, i think he raises a very good point. perhaps not a new point. but one that bears repeating. there are people who’s goal/priority in training is to do right by a technique. their skill, in their eyes and in those of their school, is based on their ability to faithfully reproduce the techniques they’ve been taught. this is DEFINITELY not an exclusive division though.
likewise, some people are driven by a desire to do right by a concept (relaxation, for example).
and some people’s allegiance is to the results.
this all seems like a question of perspective more than style though. someone who emphasizes technique or concept is still doing so, on some level, to elicit a result. and while i believe it’s entirely possible to get too wrapped up in technique and loose sight of the goal, i don’t think that’s a stylistic thing. it’s just a perspective problem.
in contrast, people who focus on the results still look to technique and concept to achieve those results, and will focus on technique and concept to the degree necessary to achieve those results. so to my mind, the three categories mix all the time.
real life, in my experience, works that way.
stuart b.
Hey Ap, I pretty much agree with what you said, as well as what some of the others have to say.
It does seem to me that these things he list are different aspects of atleast most martial arts as well as personaly choices on how to train. I know that at some point all three are included in my training for various reasons. In my experience working iwth wing chun and different instructors, I have found that some people tend to emphasize one of these more then the other but it doesnt seem to be art specific.
Guys, firstly, take a chill. If I had posted this here, perhaps I could understand your arousal, but think about it. I didn’t. This was posted to one of my own forums to generate conversation amongst ROSS practitioners, who necessarily invest themselves in diverse training. It seems this post actually generated more attention here than even on my own forum. LOL.
Bruce wrote, “One’s personal “style” is transitory.” Amen. Or at least it OUGHT to be - which was what my post intended to divulge through dialogue on my forum. My post was not in reference to STYLES (categories) of martial art, but STYLES (orientation) of martial art education, as Water Dragon so insightfully illuminated.
On my board, the post is taken in context to our understanding of STYLE. There are as many styles on the planet as there are people… and the only purpose of martial art education is to coax out one’s unique style. Anything else is illusion and dogma (including anything that I may have said or written that lends itself the appearance of “absolute truth.”)
Most often my athletes and clients come from various martial art backgrounds. Dependent upon their prior instruction, the teacher may have exclusively focused on TECHNIQUE, MOVEMENT, or CONCEPT. It’s difficult for the newbie who has been conditioned to accept that specific “filter” for misperceiving all training as generated from TECHNIQUE, MOVEMENT, or CONCEPT. When I was training with the Russian special forces any one day would focus upon a technique, a movement, or a concept. If I had only one day’s exposure to a particular trainer, I may misunderstand that day’s training as the “filter” for training - thinking that collection of techniques, movements, or concepts the vehicle of training. I remember when I was with the Russian Olympic Boxing coach we had a particularly grueling couple days of training in pretty **** cold weather. He came over and told me something that stuck in my heart ever after - “Scott, when you focus on “short elastic strokes” (TECHNIQUE; “tichok” in Russian language), you lose sight of the rhythm (MOVEMENT; in reference to the figure-8/infinity), and fail in suppleness (CONCEPT; actually the word he used was “plasticity”). When you effectively find and break rhythm, you’re laxing in technique and becoming like a robot (no suppleness). When you fixate on being supple, your technique has little power and you are arrhythmic. You must integrate all three simultaneously. To do this, stop trying to be like him, or like him, or like him, and just be like you.”
Ultimately, as one actualizes his own personal style, technique, movement, and concept become inextricably interwoven. But at the beginning of training, people often fixate upon one of the three, like I did, and as a result have arrested development, like I have had.
Again, the post was on my board for ROSS enthusiasts to generate interaction and thought.
As far as the ad hominem arguments regarding my teaching style, you guys may or may not be right. As a national coach of two different combat sports I learned a great deal during that time about how easily one can make blanket statement blunders. As a coach for UFC competitors and pro-fighters I learned how easily one can make over-generalizations which craft ineffective coaching tools. As a trainer for special purpose police and special forces personnel I’ve learned how easily one phrase uttered can later become dogmatic impediment. As an world-class fighter I learned that the only undefeated players are those whom do not compete.
One of my greatest teachers, Doctor Jonathon Ellsworth Winter, taught me, “if you can’t improve upon the silence, don’t speak.” There have been many times that my comments have not improved upon the silence. Like undefeated fighting, the only errorless coaches are those whom have never coached.
I facilitate development for people whom request my services. I know I am a better coach than I was last year, and I’ll be better next year than I am this year.
If you find something written (especially on the internet) that incites you, then engage the author directly rather than disparaging him without his awareness. Anyone that knows me in real life, knows how approachable I am. Hell, call me at my place and you can at least spout your grievances to the source. Thankfully an athlete apprised me of the thread so I could at least comment.
Lastly, articles are like techniques - discard what does not facilitate your development or contribute to your survivability… and for Pete’s sake, don’t be emotionally attached to it. Basically, guys, if it hurts your head, read some other brain candy and save yourself a moment’s grief.
Fraternal,
Scott Sonnon
Stuart B. - great post. People should read your post, and ignore mine.
Merryprankster, “hulk like uchimata.” LOL. It’s a shame that we’ve never met, because you obviously have a skewed idea of who I am. I’m actually more of a meathead than you obviously imagine. Predominantly my classes are silent, with the only intervention being for safety or switching fluid to dynamic drills. I prefer banging over bantering and rolling over rhetoric, any day. Anytime you have a chance, swing by my school or one of my seminars. Consider yourself my personal guest.
Serpent, consider yourself my personal guest anytime you’re in Seattle. I’m sure I can accommodate you.
Scott-
I certainly hope you don’t take what I said the wrong way–it was more good-natured poking at difference in communication styles than anything. I’m all for what works for the individual. And I’m sure that your classes don’t sit around and wax philosophical about the subject at hand.
If you ever swing down Washington DC way, perhaps I’ll poke my head in!
And If I’m in Seattle, the same.
What no personal guest for me:D
Sheesh, and I thought I was kinds backing you up.
Hey AmerRoss, nice reply! Cant take things too personally around here, alot of opinionated people and most o fthem are way too outspoken! See my signature at the bottom, a quote from a very wise man in the WC forum!
By the way, I have been looking into your training system and wondering if it is adaptable to my own training. Could you email me personally and let me know a little bit about what it is all about. I checked out your website but am not quite clear on what it is all about!
email me at jabradley@deloitte.com…
Scott, although we’ve had positive rapport at times and discord at other times, I have a great admiration for both your insight, and your ability to communicate fundamental ideas which lend your reader a more liberating view of what their goals may be and how to go about achieving them.
I know you’d rather keep to your own, but I for one would welcome your sharing in the discussions on this board. Please post here more often.
Bruce
Merryprankster - hell, I get a headache from some of what I’ve written; and no one could possibly poke more fun at my writing than my wife. Shoot me your email, I’ve got a trainee in the State Dept that I’ll be visiting this Fall. We should get together when I’m there - tilt back some suds and THEN some training.
Black Jack - sorry, my friend. I only extend invitations to people who don’t like me.
Red5Angel - the WC coach sounds like one helluva insightful guy, but then again, no one was wiser than Yoda. I have a trainee in your city, Derek Brigham (author of a magnificent handbook on the 5 element theory at Dragondoor.com) - who used to be working with my friend Pavel Tsatsouline when he still lived in St. Paul. If you want I can hook you two together. Email en route.
frat.,
s
RedAngel,
Good for you, its cool to see you checking out other systems, not that theirs anything wrong with wc, but at least it shows that your not close minded by any means, I have met some wc guys who are.
Cheers,
Bruce, I don’t know how much I could contribute to folks here, since everything I post, since coming from a ROSS perspective, often ends up being a bit too verbose and infomercial for my taste. You’re versatile and progressive and due to your expertise on things CMA related have significantly more relevant insight to contribute at Kungfuonline than I do, for certain.
Thanks for the good words, though.
frat.,
s
cheers scott. i appreciate it. i think that question of perspective is a pitfall of training that does get overlooked quite a bit. how was the reaction to this post on your own site, by the way?
stuart b.
Scott - got your post thanks! I would definitley like to get a hold of the friend you have here locally!
Black Jack - Thanks for the props man! ReallyI find that although you find stubborn people in all arts, for some reason, atleast lately, WC really seems to be getting out of hand! I love the art, it works very well for me but I almost dread going into the WC forum here because its more about catfights and whining then WC!!! there are some very respectable guys on that forum, I have a quote form one of them below, but for the others it just gets tiring to sift through all the not so subtle garbage!
“I have a quote form one of them below”
Master Yoda posts on the wing chun forum? what relavance does the force have to wing chun?
I posted it, I liked it and thought it would bring in some good conversation. Not controversy
Scott usually has very good writings that may be right or wrong but are worth talking about.
BTW buy a couple of the tapes and make a decision on his abilities and knowledge.
well, it did spark some conversation that, from where i’m sitting, is going quite well.
I know you’d rather keep to your own, but I for one would welcome your sharing in the discussions on this board. Please post here more often.
Bruce"
Same here Scott, pretty obvious when I drag it over here.