This one's for you --- Chango

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
21

Rene

Quote>

Rene Wrote>

quote:

One of the remarkable things about the Societies, however, was that they didn’t use the same class/age hierachy as normally found in Chinese society. They were non-elite, and a younger, lower-class member could just as easily be a the leader as an older, higher-class member.

Quote From Previous Post,

quote:

The Hung society structure is intended to emulate a family of sworn brothers. In China, however, it should be remembered that not all brothers are neccessarily equal. Although family members are supposed to love one another and live in peace and harmony, they are not equals. The Chinese family is hierarchial in nature. The older brothers are seen as more important than the younger brothers. The younger brothers are supposed to be obedient towards the older brothers. This respect for elders, even elder brothers, is a key component of Confucian teachings. Elders, after all, are perceived as having superior wisdom, and therefore society benefits when the younger members of society obey and respect them. In return for this obedience, it is expected that the elders and superiors will rule with wisdom and compassion keeping the best interests of their inferiors and society at large in mind at all times.

Now what you’ve written doesn’t make sense

Rene, I think you missed this post, what is your thinking on the information I posted and what you said about Secret Societys:confused:

Sheldon

22

Hi Sheldon,

Let me try to explain again. There was a hierarchy within the society, but it was not the traditional one of class and age. So, unlike other cultural organizational forms, an “elder brother” in a society would not necessarily be of higher class or chronological age than a “younger brother”. Does that make more sense? If not, and apologies for sounding like a broken record, any of the half-dozen or so scholarly books on the period can probably explain it more expansively.

23

Hi Chango,

We may just be talking past each other. Cheung Ng wasn’t the founder of any known/documented society or cell thereof. He was the founder of, or one of the greatest influences of, an opera company. Though he was rumored to have been a rebel from the capitol (Beijing) region, its not known if he was a member of an organization (he rebelled by inserting anti-Qing comments in his songs and making up satirically anti-Qing plays, after all, we do not know if he did anything martially offensive), or if he continued those activities in Foshan, or if he did, whether he began his own, new group, or joined an existing one. Please remember the Tiandihui was only forming in Fujian in the 1760s, decades after Cheung Ng arrived in Foshan in the 1730s, and only spread well through Guangdong by the very early 1800s, so in any case, we may be talking about something different than a Tiandihui/Hung style society in any case.

Also, please remember the Red Junks themselves are not known to have engaged in any rebellious activity until the time of the Taiping, more than 100 years after Cheung Ng arrived. They are not known to have inserted anti-Qing comments into their songs, performed anti-Qing plays, etc. during Cheung’s time, or between then and the Taiping.

WRT Yik Kam, since we know the “leader” of the opera was not the “leader” of the rebels, or vice versa, may I ask again if you know what “member” Yik Kam’s status was among the rebels?

24

This Was On The History Channels Website

Ming

Ming, dynasty of China that ruled from 1368 to 1644. The first Ming emperor, Chu Yüan-chang (ruled 1368-98), a former Buddhist monk, joined a rebellion in progress, gained control of it, overthrew the Mongol Yüan dynasty, and unified all of China proper. He set up a strong, centralized government and carried out economic recovery programs. He abolished the office of prime minister, thereby strengthening the autocratic power of the emperor. The emperor Yung Lo (reigned 1402-24) moved (1421) the capital from Nanjing to Beijing, which developed into a magnificent city. The dynasty, which never created a viable taxation policy, always had fiscal problems. Seven great naval expeditions, under the command of the Grand Eunuch Cheng Ho, were sent at considerable cost to SE Asia, India, the Persian Gulf, and E Africa for tribute and trade (1405-33). These voyages ceased in 1433 and never resumed. Christian missionaries penetrated the Chinese hinterlands, and Europeans, such as Matteo Ricci, brought Western ideas to the Ming court. The Ming was generally a period of stability and prosperity. There were notable achievements in literature, philosophy, and the arts. Wang Yang-ming(1472-1529), the great Ming neo-Confucian philosopher, developed an activist approach to moral training and self-cultivation. The huge Yung-lo Encyclopedia (Yung-lo ta-tien), which included all major works in Confucian classics, history, philosophy, and miscellaneous subjects, was compiled in the early 15th cent. Four great novels, The Romance of the Three Kingdoms, The Water Margin (All Men Are Brothers), Journey to the West, and The Golden Lotus, were written in this period. Drama in the Southern style, painting, and architecture reached great heights. The delicate monochromatic porcelain of the Ming period is often considered the finest achievement of Chinese ceramics. Incompetent emperors, oppressive taxation, and factionalism in government in the later years of the dynasty incited revolts among peasants in the border regions and prepared the way for the Manchu conquest of China (see Ch’ing). See R. Huang, 1587: A Year of No Significance (1981); F. F. Mote and D. Twitchett, ed., The Cambridge History of China (Vol. 7, 1988).

It says that Chu Yüan-chang was a former Buddhist Monk and joined a Rebellion in progress, is it not possible that the Buddhist Monks of the time of Ming rule favored being ruled by the Ming and not the Ching???

25

Pardon my interruption on all this talk about Cheung Ng and Operas and secret societies, but it seems to me that it is all unnecessary as far as WCK history is concerned. Can someone tell me how they expect to prove lineage without actually proving lineage? What does it matter what Cheung Ng did or did not do (WCK or whatever) if you can’t prove a direct relationship to him? TN

Terence

26

Can someone tell me how they expect to prove lineage without actually proving lineage? What does it matter what Cheung Ng did or did not do (WCK or whatever) if you can’t prove a direct relationship to him? TN

Precisely.

Lots of tangential postings but no links on lineage, exclusivity of Chan connection, exclusivity of “scientific” precision.
Talk of lineage, Chan and methodology by themselves do not give
operation links- to substance.

But if the lineage stories are believed by members of the lineage-thats ok by me…but why waste time with it on threads…unless the principle of its better to be talked about than not talked about
holds here.

BTW- the listing of Augustine Fong as a technical advisor for VTM is playing fast and loose with advertisement.

27

Sheldon,

that the Buddhist Monks of the time of Ming rule favored being ruled by the Ming and not the Ching???

According to the Triads themselves, the Shaolin helped the Qing dynasty and were on very good terms with them initially, even aiding them in putting down the Xilufan rebellion. Historically, the Qing did a lot to help rebuild and promote Buddhism. (Of course, you’re aware that the Qing themselves were Buddhist, and some very religious?)

Terence,

I don’t mind discussing related areas, even if they remain unproven to directly effect WCK origins or development, because they are part of the culture from which the art derived. Of course, you’re correct, no one has yet established that Cheung Ng had anything to do with WCK, the Guangdong Societies, or anything else other than the Opera for which he is well known. That will take some work to sort out and document.

Joy,

I think we’re still in the crawl stage of “crawl - walk - run”. I do regret, however, that no one seems interested in actually discussing WCK origins. I enjoy the little tangents, admittedly, but they do seem to distract attention away from the main topic.

So,

Would anyone care to get back to WCK itself? Anyone able to discuss the sample working model I provided?

RR

28

Rene, I think This Is All Related To Secret Societys

Rene Wrote>

According to the Triads themselves, the Shaolin helped the Qing dynasty and were on very good terms with them initially, even aiding them in putting down the Xilufan rebellion.

Taken from the History Channel website>

Triad Society

Triad Society, name given to a number of Chinese antidynastic secret societies by 19th-century Western observers. Most of these groups claimed descent from the Heaven and Earth Society (Taendi hui) or the Triad Society (Sanhe hui), two secret societies of the late 17th cent. that had originated in Fujian prov. The avowed purpose of these societies was to overthrow the alien Manchu Ch’ing dynasty and to restore the native Chinese Ming dynasty. Societies sharing a similar ideology, ritual, and terminology spread all along the SE China coast. In times of peace the secret societies functioned as fraternal organizations, but they often became involved in criminal activities and at times armed conflict with rival groups occurred. Poor peasants, itinerant workers, and others who lacked strong kinship ties found security in the fraternal ties and in the protection offered by the societies. The Taiping Rebellion (1850-64) brought a revival of secret-society militancy and anti-Manchu sentiment, but local groups continued to function independently and no hierarchic organization was achieved. Branches of the Triads assisted Sun Yat-sen and other revolutionaries to carry out armed insurrection against the Ch’ing dynasty in the decade before the republican revolution of 1911. The Communist government of China launched (1949-50) a campaign to eliminate secret societies soon after assuming power. Triad societies persisted outside mainland China and among overseas Chinese. For the activities of secret societies in N China during the Ch’ing period, see White Lotus Rebellion; Boxer Uprising.

This is the part that strikes a chord with me>

The avowed purpose of these societies was to overthrow the alien Manchu Ch’ing dynasty and to restore the native Chinese Ming dynasty. Societies sharing a similar ideology, ritual, and terminology spread all along the SE China coast.

It seems that Buddhist Monks didn’t have any problems with getting involved in Rebellions and that the Triads actually were very heavily active in trying to overthrow the Ching???

Sheldon

29

Sheldon,

There were various periods of research in modern times into the origins of the Triads. The first was Sun Yat-Sen’s manipulation of history where he tried to gain the support of overseas triads by having “historians” work on the Xilufan myth to make them think their origins were patriotic and tied to the Shaolin temple (nevermind even the myths contradicted this with the Shaolin working at first with the Qing until they were betrayed, and only then working againt them - making them seem selfish or self-interested, and hardly patriotic). Likewise, “overthrow the Qing and restore the Ming” was shown to be a marketing slogan (one adopted only after “overthrow the Qing and return the Song” failed (not enough people remembered the Song). Later research themes included a prominent period under French historians and then the PRC push towards “mutual aid societies” which tried to tell the people that the Triads were early forms of communism, thus tying the PRC into their legacy.

It is now commonly accepted among legitimate researchers and historians that the Triads had no root in Shaolin (the tales being adaptions of Tang dynasty fables) and no root in anti-Qing (though some factions later adopted that purpose to be certain). They were rather a response to the times themselves, with massive migration, uncomfortable economic opportunites, and groups of disenfranchises, mostly male, youths who banded together for both protection and predation. The Tiandihui itself being the development of Ti Xi, who while not a Buddhist monk, did use the aliases of Monk Hong Er, Monk Wan, among others.

Since this seems to be an interest of yours, and my fingers can only type so much, I once again recommend you get copies of the modern works on the subject, all well researched, peer reviewed, referenced, and supported. They would, I have not doubt, answer most of your questions far better than either I, or haphazard Google might.

30

Rene

Rene Wrote>

then the PRC push towards “mutual aid societies” which tried to tell the people that the Triads were early forms of communism, thus tying the PRC into their legacy.

History Channel wrote>

The Communist government of China launched (1949-50) a campaign to eliminate secret societies soon after assuming power.

Rene Wrote>

The first was Sun Yat-Sen’s manipulation of history where he tried to gain the support of overseas triads by having “historians” work on the Xilufan myth to make them think their origins were patriotic and tied to the Shaolin temple

History Channel Wrote>

Branches of the Triads assisted Sun Yat-sen and other revolutionaries to carry out armed insurrection against the Ch’ing dynasty in the decade before the republican revolution of 1911.

Rene Wrote>

According to the Triads themselves, the Shaolin helped the Qing dynasty and were on very good terms with them initially, even aiding them in putting down the Xilufan rebellion.

History Channel Wrote>

The avowed purpose of these societies was to overthrow the alien Manchu Ch’ing dynasty and to restore the native Chinese Ming dynasty. Societies sharing a similar ideology, ritual, and terminology spread all along the SE China coast.

Rene Wrote>

Since this seems to be an interest of yours

And yours, I thought:confused:

Rene Wrote>

I once again recommend you get copies of the modern works on the subject, all well researched, peer reviewed, referenced, and supported.

But the information I’m posting is from the History Channels website:confused: don’t you think that the information there is well researched, peer reviewed, referenced, and supported:confused:

Rene Wrote>

They would, I have not doubt, answer most of your questions far better than either I.

I’m interested in your thoughts on this, the information you yourself have come across:confused: and I feel this is all relevant to the birth of WCK;)

Sheldon

31

Sheldon,

Could you please provide me with the references and sources for the quote you relayed? That might be helpful. And please let me know when you’ve had a chance to read History of the Tiandhihui, Secret Societies Reconsidered, God’s Chinese Son (or any Spence’s work, really), Strangers at the Gate, etc. since they might answer all your questions for you (and save my poor fingers unnecessary typing.)

Meanwhile, to test a theory, I asked GOOGLE if the moon was made of cheese. Lovely, chaps, they answered in a jiff…

Is the moon made of green cheese?

(the scientific evidence)

The landings of Apollo 11 and Apollo 12 on the moon sent shock waves through the moon’s surface, which were detected on a seismograph. By measuring the speed of shock waves through rock (known as the seismic velocity), the density of the rock can be estimated. The higher the seismic velocity, the denser the rock. Seismic velocities for moon “rock” were compared to those of rocks from various locations. The results were published in Science [1], and are shown below:

Seismic Velocities

Lunar________________Seismic Velocity (km/sec)
Basalt 10017…1.84
Basalt 10046…1.25
Near surface layer…1.2

Terrestrial rocks_______Seismic Velocity (km/sec)

Granite…5.9
Gneiss…4.9
Basalt…5.8
Sandstone…4.9
Marble…6.02
Limestone…5.06-5.97

It is clear from this that moon “rock” is considerably less dense than any type of rock found on earth. The scientists then decided to examine the seismic velocities of various cheeses from around the world. Some of the results are shown below:

Cheese_______________Seismic Velocity (km/sec)

Sapsego (Swiss)…2.12
Romano (Italy)…1.74
Cheddar (Vermont)…1.72
Muenster (Wisconsin)…1.57

(Of course, we all know it’s wensleydale (sp?) don’t we Grommit?)

32

Rene, Use Google

Rene Wrote>

Could you please provide me with the references and sources for the quote you relayed? That might be helpful.

I thought you would have put this into Google, rather than seeing if the Moon was made of cheese

http://www.historychannel.com/

Rene Wrote>

And please let me know when you’ve had a chance to read History of the Tiandhihui, Secret Societies Reconsidered, God’s Chinese Son (or any Spence’s work, really), Strangers at the Gate, etc. since they might answer all your questions for you

It may take a while, I need to finish the book on The Gurkhas then a book on the History of the Royal Marines then A Bridge Too Far I have few other books on WW2 I need to read,so it might be a while;)

Sheldon

33

http://www.historychannel.com/

Sorry, that seems to be the source for your quote, not the sources and references for the information contained therein. Again, if you can provide that, I would appreciate it.

It may take a while, I need to finish the book on The Gurkhas then a book on the History of the Royal Marines then A Bridge Too Far I have few other books on WW2 I need to read,so it might be a while

No worries and enjoy. Once you’ve read the up-to-date material, I’d be interested in discussing this further with you.

GOOGLE, on “why do things burn?”

G. E. Stahl, postulates that in all flammable materials there is present phlogiston, a substance without color, odor, taste, or weight that is given off in burning. “Phlogisticated” substances are those that contain phlogiston and, on being burned, are “dephlogisticated.” The ash of the burned material is held to be the true material.

34

Rene

Rene Wrote>

Sorry, that seems to be the source for your quote, not the sources and references for the information contained therein. Again, if you can provide that, I would appreciate it.

Go to the History Channels website and put Triad in the search window that should bring up some references then put in Ming and that should bring up some more references also put in White Lotus.
They have keywords you can click on to take you to other references while reading certain paragraphs.

If you like, I could post all the links for you:confused: :wink:

Rene Wrote>

Once you’ve read the up-to-date material, I’d be interested in discussing this further with you.

Does that mean you’re not too impressed by the material available on the History Channels website:confused: and surely the information there is as up to date as you can get:confused:

Sheldon

35

Does that mean you’re not too impressed by the material available on the History Channels website

The highly abridged paragraph from the Columbia Encyclopedia on the Taendi Hui (sic) is just that. It cannot, of course, give the illumination of full volumes specifically on and about the subject, nor is it meant to. For example, though the Taiping was “overthrow the Ming” it certainly wasn’t “restore the Ming” (they wanted their own new dynasty, not a return to any older one).

BTW - apologies in advance if I lack time to properly respond to any more cut’n’pastes but I think I’ve provided enough to help get to the information without what little’s left of my fingers being wasted away 8)

GOOGLE on “where do babies come from?”

Ask A Scientist©
Biology Archive

Baby Origins
Question: Where do babies come from?
Joe Booby

Answer: Storks bring 'em.

36

geezer—nice contributing----

rene—my understanding is tan sao ng made his way to fatsan in the 1730’s----wong wah bo and leung yee tai and dfmkam (members ) were not active until the early 1800’s----wwb was still active when the ban was lifted off the opera..1866? if memory serves…so tan sao ng couldnt have taught directly wwb or that generation
is yik kam --dai fam min kam? im assuming yes but have seen nothing documented about the use of the name yik kam versus sun kam…wasnt his real family name " So"?

37

Rene, Hsanto

Rene, Hsanto,

Hendrik, where is it you train WCK, is it Singapore???

Sheldon

38

Brian,

Thank you for helping increase the substance of the thread. No, Yik Kam and Dai Fa Min Kam were different people (even the two characters for Kam are different, sort of like the Weng and Wing characters). In the opera, Yik Kam playes the “proper lady” role, while Dai Fa Min Kam played the Martial Painted Face (though it was said he also may have played the comedian at times).

I agree that it is difficult to see how Cheung Ng could have had any direct interaction with the generation of Wong Wah-Bo et. al.

39

Rene, Hsanto

When did “Cho On” take WCK to Penang, Malaysia ???

40

Hendrik is…

Apparently located here in Northern California right now, working in my general vicinity. We’ve almost come close to meeting for lunch. Perhaps we still can do so time permitting for both of us.

It is rather stressfull here in Silicon Valley these days with all the layoffs and fewer people to do more work.

So maybe we can get rolling hand to drive down from sacramento and meet us for lunch or dinner eh?