http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVzUtJteogA&feature=channel
wtf knuckles @ 0:55
Also, this ninja can dive over a Miata:
Typical “hard” conditioning that makes you pay for it in the long run.
Honestly, if I have to blame someone I would blame the Chinese that taught the forging process to the Okinawans and Japanese and didn’t teach them the “inner” stuff like the use of Jow’s and proper massaging.
Iron hand training leaves no visible evidence of its process on the hands, outside of some “swelling” compared to an untrained hand and outside of what you can feel.
i thought some of the okinawans had jow? ive certainly heard of that “uechi grass” that supposed to help wtih bruising and what not
[QUOTE=goju;1030061]i thought some of the okinawans had jow? ive certainly heard of that “uechi grass” that supposed to help wtih bruising and what not[/QUOTE]
Some did, very few.
For the Okinawans and Japanese ( and some westerners) the deformed hands were something to be proud of, the marks of a warrior or some BS like that.
I know, I was one of them and in kyokushin, “marked hands” were a sign of 'real training".
Silly.
lol wow i was just told the calluses or the enlarged knuckles were a result of makiwara training not an objective or that i should aspire to mangle my hands tp show my manliness
[QUOTE=goju;1030066]lol wow i was just told the calluses or the enlarged knuckles were a result of makiwara training not an objective or that i should aspire to mangle my hands tp show my manliness[/QUOTE]
Well, everyone is told that, but you are also told to wear them as “badges of honor”.
Fact is, calluses and enlarged knuckles are the result of not taking care of your tools.
They do NOT equal a more “powerful punch” and they do NOT equal real MA training.
They equal neglect and lack of proper understanding of conditioning.
Besides, what good is showing the world you are a MA because of “deformed” hands when it is best to keep it a secret?
well to be fair i would like to actually see iron palm applied and demonstrated in a realistic setting outside of the typical brick smashing demo . i think very few people can do much besides that with that version of hand forging so i would stick to my post and heavy bag work just to avoid the charlatans
“Besides, what good is showing the world you are a MA because of “deformed” hands when it is best to keep it a secret?”
bah thats old timey bull puckey that still hangs around in traditional arts.
today all deformed knuckles do is gross out chicks and make people occasionally ask you about your knuckles if they happen to notice them:D
Someone didn’t learn how to use brine, wine or massage and let their hand become like that.
dit da jow is great, but even western boxers soak, massage and use pickling juice on their hands to maintain suppleness.
turning your hand into a pile of mess like that is…well, stupid.
I never was down with the japanese conditioning methods. Too much masochism, lacking in common sense and surprisingly ignorant of the medicinal practice required to maintain health while conditioning.
a 65 year old IP master has hands like an office worker.
a 65 year old japanese makawari dude will have a real hard time typing, tying shoes and eating with chopsticks in a normal manner.
what i was getting at is i think there is a lot of myths surrounding both styles of hand forging
one is apparently the correct way to do things but seems to largely work if your being invaded by bricks while the others can be sacrificing safety for the sake of machoness:rolleyes:
ive met quite a few older karate or tkd guys whos hands were fine from the post training
i believe the notion that the chinese masters hands remain normal while the karate masters hands suffer in the long run is just that a myth
[QUOTE=goju;1030078]what i was getting at is i think there is a lot of myths surrounding both styles of hand forging
one is apparently the correct way to do things but seems to largely work if your being invaded by bricks while the others can be sacrificing safety for the sake of machoness:rolleyes:
ive met quite a few older karate or tkd guys whos hands were fine from the post training
i believe the notion that the chinese masters hands remain normal while the karate masters hands suffer in the long run is just that a myth[/QUOTE]
Well, On a whole most TCMA guys have better hands than the TJM or the Okinawans.
You should have seen Morio Higaonna’s hands before he started using Jow and correct massaging.
Or Taira’s senseis hands to this day ( I think, unless he has changed in the last few years) or Shinjo senseis.
well ive heard higaonna state in masters magazine he works on the makiwara around and hour to an hour a half a day lol
i mean its easy to see why someones hands would be in such poor shape given the durations of their post trainings and i think thats a reason why lot of karatekas hands suffer in the long run they use too much force on the pole to soon and the training time spent is over kill
Well, everyone is told that, but you are also told to wear them as “badges of honor”.
Fact is, calluses and enlarged knuckles are the result of not taking care of your tools.
They do NOT equal a more “powerful punch” and they do NOT equal real MA training.
They equal neglect and lack of proper understanding of conditioning.
they do equal degenerative arthritis later on in life with high doses of joint pain to the extent of not being able to use your hands. :rolleyes:
Miata? Oh hell no.
Everyone knows ninjas drive a Jazz.
[QUOTE=goju;1030078]
i believe the notion that the chinese masters hands remain normal while the karate masters hands suffer in the long run is just that a myth[/QUOTE]
nay. karate dudes screw up their hands bad. There are hundreds of examples. I know a few myself personally and also I know several practitioners of iron palm from chinese practice that do not suffer what the japanese players do.
It’s not a myth, it’s for real. The japanese ways of hand conditioning are macho crap and the chinese versions of this conditioning are well thought out, developed over time and ultimately do not lead to the hazards that are found with the makawari training and break training that is popular in japanese martial arts.
It will work for you in the short term, but in the long run, you are wrecking your hands if you are not also using the medicine and massage.
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1030103]nay. karate dudes screw up their hands bad. There are hundreds of examples. I know a few myself personally and also I know several practitioners of iron palm from chinese practice that do not suffer what the japanese players do.
It’s not a myth, it’s for real. The japanese ways of hand conditioning are macho crap and the chinese versions of this conditioning are well thought out, developed over time and ultimately do not lead to the hazards that are found with the makawari training and break training that is popular in japanese martial arts.
It will work for you in the short term, but in the long run, you are wrecking your hands if you are not also using the medicine and massage.[/QUOTE]
correct me if im wrong but ive read in here in ip training quite a few practioners only train one hand in case they end up doing long term damage to themselves. they still hav eone good hand If ip was obviously the safe route then why would they have to worry about this?
[QUOTE=goju;1030107]correct me if im wrong but ive read in here in ip training quite a few practioners only train one hand in case they end up doing long term damage to themselves. they still hav eone good hand If ip was obviously the safe route then why would they have to worry about this?[/QUOTE]
whoever said that is not receiving proper IP training.
so, in essence they are lying to you with this line.
What you have said is someone else complete fabrication.
People who do IP here, such as the method promoted by Ku yu cheung, will confirm that to state this is foolish. YOu work one hand if that’s all you have is one hand.
There are qigongs, massage methods, medicines involved with genuine IP.
[QUOTE=goju;1030107]correct me if im wrong but ive read in here in ip training quite a few practioners only train one hand in case they end up doing long term damage to themselves. they still hav eone good hand If ip was obviously the safe route then why would they have to worry about this?[/QUOTE]
There are a few reasons given to the “one hand” approach, none of them are because of potential damage.
There is the “chi” reason and there are a couple of those at least ( right hand only because the hear tis on the left side, doing both divides the chi, etc)
There are practical reasons: having one hand forged and one not forged allows for an application of “degree” of force.
There are others to I am sure.
well to be fair i would like to actually see iron palm applied and demonstrated in a realistic setting outside of the typical brick smashing demo . i think very few people can do much besides that with that version of hand forging so i would stick to my post and heavy bag work just to avoid the charlatans
Dude, how else do you want someone to demo IP? by hitting someone ??
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1030114]Dude, how else do you want someone to demo IP? by hitting someone ??[/QUOTE]
Yes!!!
To be scientific, they should be randomly selected. A simple method might be to begin at the top of the up escalator at a mall in December, and finish in time to get to the getaway car after killing the mall cops with the dim mak, but before cops with guns arrive.
That’s how the traditional chinese sifu would’ve done it. Just don’t kill an actual Chinese person, or you’ll have to fight Wong Jack Man to keep your school open.
How about a set of walls - Pine, Oak, Brick, and Stone - and the IP demonstrator has to smash their way through?
Or maybe, trashing a car with their bare hands from the outside in?
Maybe a visit to a slaughterhouse…
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1030114]T
Dude, how else do you want someone to demo IP? by hitting someone ??[/QUOTE]
well yes
im sure you can vary the degrees of force with the strike no? otherwise you would be destroying anything you struck