The downfall of Traditional Gung Fu

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Southern Chinese Kung Fu
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thinking about it, because i was taugt to own my gung fu, the only one that can make it work for me is…me. but when i used to get into street fights i always came back as said “i did this, sifu…where and how did i do that?” then he would ask me to do these moves from one of my sets and show me thats where that is.

but we always applied our gung fu with fighting in mind, and so our PERFORMING was lacking. you can see in our hands we’re not playing, but we sacrificed looking nice for effectiveness. that means searching for what doesn’t work for you, and learning to make it work.

for myself, since im OG and in that rare group of loyal dedicated students with passion for what they do, i personally feel good about how i was trained. did i wish we hit focus mits, thai pads, or even drill applications…hell yeah. my classmates and i came up with things to workout.

still, sifu dino learned the same way, and i guess that was type of secret method of training. i guess. but when compared to MMA…yeah we lacked big time in regards to drilling, and applications. but we weren’t structured that well and organized either. but im adding in what i feel we never possessed in the first place with my own group of students.

but because sifu dino know how to fight with his clf, we got some of his best. i learned from him when he was my age…young, still street saavy, hardcore, and at times very gangster. since i came from the streets, this kind of person was respected.

do i have any regrets in my learning from sifu dino…no…not at all. got alot of the knowledge from a young sifu dino, now he is old and not that hardcore anymore. signs of getting old i guess.

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yin with the yang brother

nospam
:cool:

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My two cents.

So long as there are good sifus and good students, TCMA will survive.
And MMA guys do train different material then TCMA. MMA is pretty much a style based on bits of Boxing, Greco-Roman wrestling, Muay Thai, BJJ, and maybe some Judo. That’s where they draw their curriculum from (with some exceptions and give or take a few arts). And I don’t usually see them training those arts completely either (maybe with BJJ as an exception). I don’t know about you, but I’ve never seen MMA guys condition their shins against banana trees like Muai Thai guys do.
The style of MMA was a response to a venue. I notice that there are two commonalities in the styles that MMA draws from.

  1. They are styles that didnt have as much baggage as others. What I mean by baggage is all the fakes and people who cant really use their art.
  2. They are all sport arts.
    That leads me to conclude that MMA, being a sport, drew from sport arts. And that the baggage of TCMA and TJMA (with the exception of Judo), and other TMAs, lead people to believe that it was all useless. When in reality, that baggage is not a true representation of the arts.
    Now that MMA is here, I think its being successfully marketed and going mainstream. And with that, anti-TMA sentiment will continue to grow.
    Facing this wave of anti-TMA sentiment, I think traditionalists should continue to do what has always worked for them and not worry what some MMA people think.
    I think what hskwarrior described just now is a traditional style of teaching. If the student shows initiative, he learns to use his Kung Fu. If not, that’s his problem.
    The world where TCMA came from had lots of violence, so people that trained with a sifu were generally there to learn to fight. Today, where people don’t face that kind of violence, fewer people are at kwoons to learn to fight. Therefore, fewer students will take it upon themselves to drill and learn how to use their Kung Fu. But there will always be some that do. So even with that traditional teaching method, Kung Fu can live on. However, if a sifu wants to have more then just a select few of his students able to use their Kung Fu, he can make sure they all drill. Basically, doing what hskwarrior (and many other sifus) are doing.
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anyways,

one of the things im trying to do with my gung fu is dvd’s now. when it comes to applications, im gonna show the classical approach, but then show how it should be applied due to this error or that one in regards to usage.

all i’ve ever seen aside from the laceys is classical applications…or how they’re done in the set…but unfortunately real life confrontations are not that predictable. so we train for every possible aspect, and attempt to keep it real as possible. so im gonna show how we’d use it realistically.

like unless you are striking while turning your back…i would never teach my students to turn their backs against someone. like the video of that guy running away…what an effin shame on clf.

peace

25

xia,

you wanna know something funny? even mma pratice their own forms of forms…they do things repeatedly over and over again, whether with or without someone. they are more similar to us than they realize…they just train for sport.

you know, in real life combat you can’t afford mistakes. just look at the military…they train very little skills but it helps them survive if attacked. they ma they apply is to kill…which is going to take on a different appearance.

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I think that one of the aspects about making the Kung Fu your own is discovering that there is more then one application for a given movement and figuring out which ones work best for you.

27

exactly.

see, fu pow is almost 7 feet tall. i’m only 5’7". although we may have learned the same techniques, how its going to be applied changes due to the size difference. what works for me isn’t going to work for him the same way. that’s why i love choy lee fut, everything is so flexible in regards to applications.

owning your gung fu should be everyone’s goal. some only thrive on mimmicking their sifu’s. i did the same until i began to own my gung fu. being open minded like this is good for students because a sifu can show them more than one way to make it work, but also show him or her how to own it. once you own it, no one can tell you different because only you know what works for YOU and what doesn’t.

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[QUOTE=hskwarrior;761000]xia,

you wanna know something funny? even mma pratice their own forms of forms…they do things repeatedly over and over again, whether with or without someone. they are more similar to us than they realize…they just train for sport.

you know, in real life combat you can’t afford mistakes. just look at the military…they train very little skills but it helps them survive if attacked. they ma they apply is to kill…which is going to take on a different appearance.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=hskwarrior;761000]exactly.

see, fu pow is almost 7 feet tall. i’m only 5’7". although we may have learned the same techniques, how its going to be applied changes due to the size difference. what works for me isn’t going to work for him the same way. that’s why i love choy lee fut, everything is so flexible in regards to applications.

owning your gung fu should be everyone’s goal. some only thrive on mimmicking their sifu’s. i did the same until i began to own my gung fu. being open minded like this is good for students because a sifu can show them more than one way to make it work, but also show him or her how to own it. once you own it, no one can tell you different because only you know what works for YOU and what doesn’t.[/QUOTE]
I’ve argued that set combinations of punches that boxers train are their versions of forms. Of course, this idea has been rejected by lots of MMA forum types. :smiley:
I think what you said summarizes why we should continue what we’re doing in spite of what MMA is doing. We know what Kung Fu is designed for (fighting in situations where life is on the line) and other benefits it yields (like health, fun, etc). If we have what we want, there is no need to change what we are doing. All of the bad teachers and false information creates a lot of confusion. Because of this, many people want the wrong things out of martial arts. And many people who want the right things dont know how or where to get it. But if you know whats what, there is no need to worry about what some MMA guys think about what you do. Thats the way I see it.

29

again exactly:D

if a mma striker got into his fighting stance and repeatedly practiced jab, hook, uppercut, uppercut, diagnal elbow, reverse elbow, jab jab jab…then turned to the right and repeated the same sequence and then did so in other directions, then they are in fact practicing forms. MMA style forms which don’t exist technically, but the drill it over and over again.

in fact, i’d like to see some non-descript set of movements from mma techniques and then apply them to how we do our forms. im sure they would notice that they’ve been practicing MMA style forms all along.

imagine those combo’s i just mentioned and then do them in different directions. must be interesting to see imo.

hsk

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[QUOTE=nospam;760979]hey Dave, How goes? Long time no se…er read :rolleyes:

hope all is well with you and yours.

here is a clip about change - it’s a very interesting listen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmrX3VfG1ZQ

..change can be many different things..

nospam
:cool:[/QUOTE]

Hey Naya!

Yeah, haven’t peeped on any of your posts for a while. you just come outta a coma or something? :stuck_out_tongue:

I could barely understand that vid, sound was wonky. I’ll give it a go on my other system at work.

Hows by you anyway? Still training until collapse and or nausea? That’s the way! :smiley:

cheers

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Ross pretty much hit the nail in the head.

Also, for some reason a lot of CMA guys think tradition and evolution are mutually exclusive concepts. I don’t see it this way.

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cma guys?

man, you should visist some karate dojos, tkd do jangs etc etc and have a peep at some real martial arts fantasy camps.

for the most part, cma might like the jammies and such, but there are a lot more cma places that go without the jammies than there are nascar gi wearing jockstraps who are into speed bowing, kowtowing and gargling cultural nonsense outta their heads all day.

I see more goofiness in jma than in cma in my experience. and taekwondo schools are outta control with the military discipline lessons for 5 years olds. lol

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[QUOTE=The Xia;760994]So long as there are good sifus and good students, TCMA will survive. [/quote]

so long as there are people who want to train for ANY reason, it will survive. that is why taiji for health is so popular.

And MMA guys do train different material then TCMA. TMA have different concepts, training, techniques, and purposes then MMA.

yeah - I saw the post you deleted…of course it’s different, but the techniques and principles have similarities, naturally. No, there is no fu jow in mma as you stated, but there is yielding, borrowing, listeining, pushing, and pretty much every other energy you train in cma.

MMA is pretty much a style based on bits of Boxing, Greco-Roman wrestling, Muay Thai, BJJ, and maybe some Judo.

it’s more than just “bits” - it’s not uncommon for bjj guys to have extensive judo experience. IME, the coaches have decent experience in what they are teaching. If they don’t, it shows when their students compete. Using our club as an example, nobody teaching has less than 8 years of experience in their respective style.

And I don’t usually see them training those arts completely either (maybe with BJJ as an exception).

because you don’t see them on a regular basis. I don’t see cma guys sparring full contact much, but I am not around them on a regular basis either anymore.

I don’t know about you, but I’ve never seen MMA guys condition their shins against banana trees like Muai Thai guys do.

they stopped doing that years ago. Thai camps use heavy bags - sometimes called bananna bags. that’s really all you need. And do you know WHY it was the bananna tree that is used? because the bark of them is softer than other types. You would not see them kicking oaks or redwoods if they had them available.

The style of MMA was a response to a venue.

this is true. evolution. grapplers had to strike. strikers had to grapple.

  1. They are all sport arts.

judo was used and taught in the military. muay thai was trained by soldiers as well. they are sport arts now, but have not always been.

That leads me to conclude that MMA, being a sport, drew from sport arts. And that the baggage of TCMA and TJMA (with the exception of Judo), and other TMAs, lead people to believe that it was all useless. When in reality, that baggage is not a true representation of the arts.

because they were already established and tested sports, they already had training protocols and had already been competition tested.

Now that MMA is here, I think its being successfully marketed and going mainstream. And with that, anti-TMA sentiment will continue to grow.

and as it grows, so will the resentment it gets from TMAs.

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[QUOTE=hskwarrior;760981]the only think sifu dino ever did was drill basic punches, kicks. but never any applications, never any kind of drills except two man spar forms.

yeah, we used to sparr alot and very wildly. eventually we began to understand our gung fu in a different manner. discovering it for yourself is a method of learning that i find interesting. yeah you can show me how to use gung fu, but if i don’t own my gung fu i will always be doing YOUR gung fu.

and buk sing is hung sing so i’d be in the same place.[/QUOTE]

that is the point of sparring - well part of the point. For example, another coach and I have known eachother for 12 years, and since then have trained under the same instructors except during one point in time (when I started cma, he started kenpo) we are the same height and similar weight, yet we fight completely differently. It wasn’t because we weren’t “spoon fed” and had to “discover” it for ourselves, it’s because we sparred and competed. THAT is what led us to learn to use what worked best for us, and without the mystery of having to reinvent the wheel. I do agree with what you said here though. There are just different ways of going about it.

35

[QUOTE=hskwarrior;761000]xia,

you wanna know something funny? even mma pratice their own forms of forms…they do things repeatedly over and over again, whether with or without someone. they are more similar to us than they realize…they just train for sport.
[/QUOTE]

single technique drills and “forms” are not the same thing. of course we drill - plenty. there are no conventional forms though.

36

[QUOTE=The Xia;761014]I’ve argued that set combinations of punches that boxers train are their versions of forms. Of course, this idea has been rejected by lots of MMA forum types. :smiley:
I think what you said summarizes why we should continue what we’re doing in spite of what MMA is doing. We know what Kung Fu is designed for (fighting in situations where life is on the line) and other benefits it yields (like health, fun, etc). If we have what we want, there is no need to change what we are doing. All of the bad teachers and false information creates a lot of confusion. Because of this, many people want the wrong things out of martial arts. And many people who want the right things don’t know how or where to get it. But if you know what’s what, there is no need to worry about what some MMA guys think about what you do. That’s the way I see it.[/QUOTE]

To be honest, the mma guys in general don’t care about what you do. you will find a few here and there that bash tma, just as you have many mma that bash tma. such is life. But on average, if you look at a forum like mma.tv, like 90% of their topics are mma related, unlike here, where the posters love cma vs mma threads. Where I train, we never mention kung fu or any other style - we just train. When we invited the cashier to train with us, it was him who told us he trained a traditional style and did not need grappling, as he would not go down. It was a tma school talking trash about us that led to a challenge match (the tma guy lost).

37

[QUOTE=lkfmdc;760911]The real difference between “traditional” martial arts (Tma) and “Modern/Mixed” martial arts (Mma) is not WHAT they train, it is HOW they train[/QUOTE]

exactly. training methodology is the key.

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without getting trapped and tripped by terminology, traditional martial arts can and are trained properly and correctly in many cases and in a few instances, better training than that offered in some mma regimens.

Itg is too easy to fall into a mindset that something is better because it is more immediate and visceral. This is not the case at all.

There are likely as many ,mma schools that do not harness the correct as there are wushu clubs that think they are fighters.

it is also safe to say that the greater percentage of people who train in any martial art be it mma tma or what have you are not fighters at all, don’t fight on the streets and do not fight in carded bouts. they are merely training. IN which case, there is no difference because training is just training.

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No worries

The forum is not a sample version of life. There are still lots of good folks who are practitioners and teachers of TCMA- and they dont all do it for health alone.Most are not on internet chat lists.

joy chaudhuri

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[QUOTE=Water Dragon;761060]Ross pretty much hit the nail in the head.

Also, for some reason a lot of CMA guys think tradition and evolution are mutually exclusive concepts. I don’t see it this way.[/QUOTE]

IMO, evolution/adaption is a requirement of tradition. In the old days when people used thier martial arts to fight on a regular or semi regular basis, or they taught the military/gangs for the purpose of combat, they needed to constantly adapt and evolve thier art so it would remain fresh, alive and able to encounter new technologies, methods, tactics, and all the other multitudes of circumstances that can pop up during a fight, war, or what not.

also the more known your art becomes the more people will be able to recognize your style, constantly updating your material will give you the ability to still suprise those who thought they knew what you were all about.

I think this is along the same lines as cross training, though if you havent the ability or desire to cross train, you have to get new material from somewhere. If you dont find the new material yourself you have no other way of getting your hands on it.