The best of the best!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Merryprankster & Sevenstar

Well, part of fighting everyone is experience, if a grappler doesnt know any better and he i snot cautious when he comes at someone who does not grapple, he could find himself in trouble. If the guy who does not grapple is not cautious and finds himself on the ground, then he could be in trouble as well.
As for grappling and nullifying power, well, WC I know teaches power in structure, not always related to stance. I am not saying this cant be nullified but by studying how it is nullified, you may be able to stop it, and so on and so on.
I definitley do not believe in the “if such and such happens then I will..” approach, because these situations are highly organic, but anything and everything can learn to be countered and not necessarily out of the context of your art. As I also stated before some things can and may need to be adapted to your art, all arts are constantly growing and changing. For instance, wrestling and BJJ probably have a lot of things that can be intermixed very well, but, I dont believe that a BJJ practitioner necessarily needs to go to Kickboxing or boxing to learn to fight a fighter. They need to take what they know to learn how to defend themselves and get into grapple.
Another good example would be Kung Fu, and Chin Na, Chin Na isn’t necessarily a style in and of itself, but a system of techniques, and adapting some of its applications to say Wing Chun, in the context of Wing Chun, can help to fight a grappler.

On this I agree, I guess I just dont believe that I have to LEARN the other art so much as how the other art works. For example, taking my wrestling freind and getting him to spar with me, I can learn to adapt my WC applications to fend him off, stop him from getting a hold of me, or making him let go of me when we are on the ground.
I dont feel that I do have to train with him, have him teach me his techniques and actual learn wrestling. Does that make sense?

"I would like to augment what I said.

You don’t have to become a wrestler, but you DO have to know how to escape, stand up, and defend the takedown. Those three skills. Learn THAT, and you can WC your way to victory."

You’re not going to be able to out grapple a grappler with Chin Na.

As for not studying other styles in order to defeat them, unfortunately, that’s not true according to the evolution of ringfighting. Royce Gracie is a prime example. He had ONLY BJJ, and started losing to crosstrainers.

You are welcome to believe what you wish, but I think you’ll find you need to learn some other stuff to round you out.

red angel,

first of all, thanks. i appreciate your responding. i thought that your opinion that time was much better stated. i still don’t agree with it wholeheartedly, but i thought it was more reasonably put.

that said, ‘shame on me’ for what? i’m not suggesting that you can’t have insights with 2 years of experience. i’m suggesting that your insights are not enough to completely invalidate those of people with more training than you. a man studies a style for 6 years and then makes a decision based on that experience. that’s three times your experience. but you feel comfortable asserting that they’re just suffering from attention deficit?

you’re married. so you have some experience. excellent. i would never question that decision. i would never seriously suggest that, perhaps if you’d stuck with single life for longer, you’d have seen that it really was the better way to go. that’s absurd. you made a choice to be with someone based on your experience with them. (i’m guessing that it didn’t take you 6 years to make that judgment either.)

you practically taught your astronomy class. that’s cool too. but do you, after a semester, feel comfortable second guessing the research avenues or published materials of your professor? or any other astronomer of 6 years?

it does come down to more than a number of years. you’re right. but citing off all the ways in which you’re experienced (marines, marriage, etc.) doesn’t take into account that everyone else here has the same thing. we all have experiences to draw from. you’re 28. i’m 30. you’re married. i’m single (so far). you’ve been abroad. i was born abroad. that isn’t an advantage you have over the rest of us in terms of judgment. we all make decisions based on what we know. and we aren’t fools. if we crosstrain, we do so based on as much wit, wisdom, and will as you do.

trust in that a little.

stuart b.

Ap,

Stop making sense please. My head hurts :slight_smile:

mine too, brutha. mine too.

here’s a joke for you:

why did the apoweyn cross from alexandria to laurel for a doctor’s appointment, then get stuck in traffic on 495 at 10 o’clock in the morning, finally getting into work in rockville at midday?

answer: because he’s a horrible, horrible monster and god hates him.

stuart b.

Apoweyn

Your welcome for the better explanation, I realised that at the time I was just hot and bothered and did not explain myself very well. Thank you for your lucid way of looking at what I am trying to say and not getting inflammatory.
As for agreeing, I may not ever agree with it, but in time, who knows :slight_smile: (Thats my way of saying that experience does generally count for something, but not always. My examples were not really related to this subject so much as just an example in general. We all have different experiences, but sometimes age, and even experience in a certain subject may not be the best comparison. Of course I am still young, that opinion may change!)

Merryprankster, I have to say I appreciate the way you have discussed this with me, although at some point we may end up debating that whole Chin Na thing! :slight_smile:

Really, for anyone who gets this far in this string, I want to apologize to anyone I may have insulted. If you are genuinely insulted then you are probably not the type of person my ire was directed at. I guess that with the good you take the bad, and on this forum there are plenty of good guys who know what they are doing, and there are plenty of bad guys who just walk around and will never get thier heads out of thier asses.

I woul also like to state that although I dont approve of fighting in general, I do not mind a ‘freindly match’ with a fellow MA brother who is also willing. PAds, no pads, full contact or no, not because I want to get beat or to beat, but for real life experience.

red angel,

no worries. arguments get the better of us all sometimes. god knows they do me on occassion.

happy holidays mate.

stuart b.

Thanks and Happy holidays!!

What exactly is a lexicologist?!

I would probably chalk up a lot of what redangel is saying to a combination of potentially valid points and a lack of perspective based on inexperience. What that means for us is that we have to sort through what he’s saying, all the vague blanket statements and just plain rants, to find what may be a point worth considering. Now I’ll admit that when I see a claim of only 2 years experience, it usually makes me too lazy to do all that sorting since the valid points are usually things I’ve heard before a million times or conclusions I came to myself years ago.

I am a crosstrainer with 27 years of experience in the martial arts. Early on, I was a dabbler, not by design, but by necessity due to the fact that I didn’t know much about the world of martial arts and was still searching for what I wanted/needed. On the one hand, I certainly learned that an inexperienced kid can’t legitimately evaluate a given art in its entirety and that an art can often have information that is only yielded up through time, experience and perspective.

On the other hand, I also learned that, despite the hype and politically correct viewpoint, that a given art really CAN have weaknesses and that it DOESN’T always mean one simply hasn’t spent enough time in the art or delved into it deeply enough. Martial arts are human constructs and are therefore open to imperfection. The fact that some spiritually-deep total bad-ass found a method of fighting that worked for him, organized it, and taught it to others doesn’t mean that method is completely perfect nor that it is optimal for handling any and all possible fighting situations for all people…no matter how long ago it was invented or how many generations of people have practiced it since. Just like other phenomena in natural selection, just because a system has become stable over time doesn’t mean it is optimally adapted to all environments/circumstances everywhere. It simply means that it is reasonably suited to the environment/circumstances in which it is practiced.

For illustration and to hopefully provide some balanced perspective, I’ll give a couple of examples. Western pugilism, for instance, has been practiced for many hundreds of years in a roughly stable configuration. That is, it didn’t change much over time. Its advocates might claim that means it has proven that it works. Fair enough. However, put a champion pugilist against a modern Western boxer and he’ll be destroyed rather quickly, all else being equal. Or, put him on the ground with a champion wrestler, Shuai Jiao practitioner, or BJJ man and he’ll be similarly squashed. For that matter, if he can’t close distance against a skilled TKD or Muay Thai man, he’ll again be demolished.

For another example, I’ll put up Taijiquan. Modern Westerners especially don’t seem willing to put in the time to really understand and be able to correctly use this art or any of the other internal arts on average. As a result, they look at their 1 or 2 years spent doing it and conclude that it doesn’t work in a real fight and move on to something with a much shorter learning curve. This is too bad, since skilled Taiji guys can sometimes make someone with years of more common martial arts skill look like raw beginners. Now so far, this example would seem to support the point that redangel is trying to make, and it does to a certain extent. However, you’ll find Taiji guys who will claim that it has everything and that if it appears to have a weakness, you simply haven’t explored it enough. Sorry guys, but Taiji simply doesn’t have groundfighting skills, plain and simple. As much as they’d like to whine otherwise, any of these skilled Taiji guys, recognized masters included, would find themselves completely embarrassed if they ended up groundfighting with a skilled modern BJJ, Sambo, wrestling, or Judo practitioner.

To carry the illustration further, any of the aforementioned grappling specialists would find their skills nearly irrelevant if they found themselves facing a skilled Kali or Silat man armed with a blade. The whole thing begins to resemble the old Chinese analogy of rock/paper/scissors. It’s a matter of having the right tool for the job. The best hammer, no matter how refined and proven it has become through centuries of field-tested use by highly skilled carpenters, still makes a lousy screwdriver.

red angel,

i’m a writer, editor, and smartarse. hence lexicology engineer. lexicology concerns the application of language.

:slight_smile:

stuart b.

Chris

Thanks for your input, although I dont know why everyone has to pick on the new guy! just kidding…

Your points are valid, as are most of the points that have been brought up so far in this discussion. I am still struggling with new feelings and experiences and learning to articulate them.
In these discussions, they seem mostly domintaed by people unlike yourself, Apoweyn, or Merryprankster, in that its always about this is better that is better, I know because I saw this film or that book, or what have you.
I guess my point is really hard to make. I understand what you are saying on cross training, but I firmly believe that in almost any art, you can find the answers you need for most situations, and I also firmly believe that you can never have all the answers. What I mean is, I practice WC, and in doing, as I move along in my practice, I might be able to find the answers to most problems I encounter, for instance, I amy be able to find an effective way to deflect tackles and execution moves for getting me to the ground, by using WC principals of structure, centerline control, etc… I am not saying this will work all the time.

I think part of my issue is perspective. Some guys do this for sport, some do it for health, some do it to be a bad ass. We all have different reasons. For me, from the perspective of effectiveness it only has to be effective on the street, if I were to have to defend myself or anyone else. I am a pretty strong guy, not realy small and I weight lift regularly, so grappling doesnt worry me too much because most people I may encounter probably dont have a lot of experience in it. So my concern is mainly to defend against your everyday attacker on the street. If I were in doing tourneys, especially MMA tourneys or what have you, then grappling is a genuine concern.
now this issue also extends into the arguments of what is better and what isn’t. The perspective is sometimes wrong. I have always said that in tournemants, I dont believe WC is all that effective, because some of its vital tools are restricted by rules and the need to not maim or kill your opponent! On the street, even with a grappler, I have a much better chance because I may be able to deliver a dabilitating blow before or during the battle. that comes down to experience and toughness and some other factors.

“just do the same thing on the ground,”

This is exactly what I was talking about in the WC forum thread. I don’t know if it’s ignorence or arrogance but statements like that get made by WC people everyday. You try that with someone with a minimum of groundfighting experience and your butt is toast. It comes down to experience if you had tested your WC in situations other than drills in the kwoon you’d know that. The reality of the situation is that most people with 3 or 4 years of WC experience can handle themselves in a street fight which is great but if you want to move up to the next level in your training you have to look elsewhere as most WC schools just don’t believe in hardcore training.

Red:
Greg Nelson runs the Minnesota Mixed Martial Arts Academy. If you get a chance, stop by his school and work out with some of his guys. I think you will come away with a new appreciation of mixed martial arts.

red angel;

I offer only this for thought:

Do you want to be good enough to handle “average joe,” or do you want to be good enough to handle a trained fighter?

That’s the dilemma of martial arts, in general. So many arts have the counters for the “giant drunken roundhouse swing,” but neglect the boxer’s hook because “they won’t see that in a real fight.” Or (my favorite) the counter for the “big guy rush and tackle,” but neglect the wrestler’s controlled, well balanced shot/clinch.

The answer, of course, is to learn to handle the hook and the shot, because if you can handle THOSE, then the roundhouse and tackle are cake by comparison. Yet, this is not done.

The corollary (sp) to that is obviously to test your skills against those that are trained, and perhaps pick up some tips if your style or sifu can’t seem to find the answer.

That’s cross training, in a nutshell.

Good luck!

Knifefighter: thanks for the tip, I will have to go check it out, I have stopped by two other schools that are supposed to be MMA and they were pretty much crap, more teaching issues than anything else.

Merryprankster: For myself, I wish to study my art deeply, to learn all of its nuances and to adapt it to myself and my ‘way’. I still believe that all the answers I need lie within my art but your advice is very sound and worthy of following. I do believe in croos training as it pertains to sparring against other styles to improve my own, and possibly in the future I may find something to adapt to my WC. I really do appreciate the debate though, I have learned somethings.

In my opinion crosstraining is cool, but you got to have a base style before that. I mean, thats the way most top MMA guys are anyway, arent they?

You have a primary style and another one or two secondary styles that fill in for the stuff your primary style lacks.

Sakuraba can strike but his main thing is being smart on the ground.
Silva can grapple but his main thing is beating the crap out of people.
Renzo Gracie is doing some striking, but he definately wants to take it to the ground.
And so on.

Absolutely agree Xebs.

I think that over time though, what you are going to find is MMA fighters that can “do it all,” reasonably well, and have a particular specialty. I mean, Igor really doesn’ have a ground game, but right now, he doesn’t have to. In 50 years, I believe that situation will have changed.

red5angel:

Here’s the website to the school that Knifefighter mentioned.

http://www.mmaacombatzone.com/

Knifefighter or Watchman

You guys from around minnesota? thanks watchman for the link, I am checking it out now.