[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1063575]What is the main characteristic of your style?
As long as you stay within that, you are doing “mantis”.
The mantis of today, that deals with MMA, BJJ and so forth is not and can’t be the Mantis of yesterday that didn’t have those systems to deal with.[/QUOTE]
hard to explain but the zhai yao clip posted in the mantis forum under the thread of the same name that’s on top of the mantis forum right now shows mantis in form really well.
guess you could say mantis is a trapping/deceptive style that relies heavily on footwork, speed, and misdirection. It tends to be hand heavy going against the common stereotype for a northern style.
[QUOTE=MightyB;1063574]I wonder if we just started beating the h3ll out of each other but forced ourselves to stay within the flavor of “system” what that would do in the long term.
so for me a mantis guy - try to stay within the 3 essentials for style and technique and just find someone who’s willing to do the same but within their style. Sure we’d look like 2 monkeys trying to frock a football at first, but it’d probably eventually work itself out. The trick would be to try to develop proficiency without relying on san shou / san da technique that’s not part of mantis.
Hypothesizing of course.[/QUOTE]
Yea, sound’s about right. You dance around all awkward, then you figure it out, just like anything else. Once you make it work a couple of time, you get a hint, you work it. For some reason, people just think footwork is ‘different’.
From my experience, novice fighters always look like “two monkeys trying to frock a football” when they are fighting each other.
As their experience grows and they learn to make their style work that it starts to smooth out and “look good” so to speak.
I think fighting with your respective style without resorting to generic kickboxing takes time and practice. You need to practice your combos over and over again, starting from stand still with a compliant opponent, and work your way up to doing it on a non compliant opponent. The opening to zhai yao is a perfect one to pratice. Once of my favorites is blocking with a downward press or pat (fu?) to knock the incoming punch out of the way and follow it up with a back fist (gwa choi?) from the opposite hand. Boom-boom, 1-2. Quick and effective.
Pick your poison and practice, practice, practice.
[QUOTE=MightyB;1063565]If no evolution is needed, what do we do to get a better representation out of fighters who are trying to utilize TCMA tactics and techniques?[/QUOTE]
I truly don’t know how to make our fighting stance any better.
Raising guard will invite kick.
Dropping guard will invite punch.
More weight on front leg will invite sweep.
Less weight on front leg will invite “run down”.
Square shoulders will expose your center.
Linear shoulders will give you one long arm and one short arm.
Since when your opponent punches or kicks at you is the best time for you to enter, it’s up to you how you want to play your cheating game.
Please watch UFC 2 and see how Royce Gracie’s fighting stance. This kind of fighting stance is used a lot in TCMA. It’s like holding a sword with both hands and point your sword at your opponent’s chest. This way, you can cover both your head and also your belly.
[QUOTE=MightyB;1063572] I think the stances and the on-guard hand positioning need work.[/QUOTE]
It’s up to the distance between you and your opponent. the on-guard posture may not be the best one. Royce Gracie is not a TCMA guy. But his fighting stance looks more like TCMA fighting stance.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1063637]I truly don’t know how to make our fighting stance any better.
Raising guard will invite kick.
Dropping guard will invite punch.
More weight on front leg will invite sweep.
Less weight on front leg will invite “run down”.
Square shoulders will expose your center.
Linear shoulders will give you one long arm and one short arm.
[/QUOTE]
From my perspective - I don’t worry about raising the guard - I take what I call the 10 and 2 (term borrowed from drivers ed) approach for hand positioning which is knuckles about cheek height, elbows down and fairly tight resembling a southpaw boxing stance so that by simply dropping pulling in my elbows a bit I can cover my mid section fairly well.
I still keep my weight 60/40 transitioning either to 60 on front, or 60 on back. It’s still the basic fighting stance with the exception that I tend to be more square to the opponent than most.
I don’t worry about my center line - the elbows in and a good sense of distance take care of that -
Mainly, I want to be able to be offensive. I think TCMA takes on a quasi-Bhudhist approach of passive/defensive only and it’s in the forms and the stance. Everything seems to be “if he does this then I do this”.
Plus being a little more square facilitates my ability to throw and use my rear hand. Because of my preference for throwing, I use the southpaw stance when I probably should use a standard stance because I’m right handed.
But then again - this is my take and maybe it doesn’t work for you.
So, how do you think TCMA would “evolve” if fighting (and regularly testing those concepts in competition and combat) became the true focus of Martial Arts?
TCMA has been around for thousands of years… you dont think they have evolved and have been tested in competition and combat for centuries? seriously? and you dont think that fighting for your life is a true test?
Mainly, I want to be able to be offensive. I think TCMA takes on a quasi-Bhudhist approach of passive/defensive only and it’s in the forms and the stance. Everything seems to be “if he does this then I do this”.
its called self defense.. so you want to be the aggresser? or start the fight? im confused, MA is about being able to protect yourself, not the other way around.
[QUOTE=MightyB;1063493]
Anyway - I thought it’d be fun to hypothesize on what would happen to TCMA if everyone engaged in regular fight training.
So, how do you think TCMA would “evolve” if fighting (and regularly testing those concepts in competition and combat) became the true focus of Martial Arts?[/QUOTE]
I’m all for seeing a truer representation of TCMA in the fighting world. As a matter of fact - I’d love it. But I’m not sure that it’s possible in the given framework that we’re operating out of. Maybe there’s a way to get it - but I’m starting to suspect that “styles, forms, flavors” or what have you are imaginary constructs… something to pass the time because -
if we did engage in regular fighting, would we continue in the same way we are going now, or would we modify the approach, and would systems, theories, heirechies change because of that?
If not - then what can we do to get a truer representation of TCMA in the fighting world?
[QUOTE=Yum Cha;1063573]Also, stance is just a beginners perspective on footwork. You stand still, sure. Then you do moving, a,b,c,d, etc. Then you do dirlls, then you learn to do it fluidly by applying it. Unless someone gives you a pass to drop back into ‘what comes natural’ so you can work your “hand” magic.
Footwork is twice as hard as hand work, IMHO. And ringcraft is a big part of that too.
[/QUOTE]
it seems to me that people simply don’t understand stance. If you are posing, then you deserve what you get. Posing, Extending the hands, standing sideways or 45 at close range will get you killed quickly.
[QUOTE=EarthDragon;1063688]mightB
its called self defense.. so you want to be the aggresser? or start the fight? im confused, MA is about being able to protect yourself, not the other way around.[/QUOTE]
"The best defense is a good offense.” - Vince Lombardi
[QUOTE=MightyB;1063692]"The best defense is a good offense.” - Vince Lombardi ;)[/QUOTE]
The quote is attributed to Clausewitz works ‘On War’, which is in turn based on the work of Sun Tzu and Mao tse Tung. In it he states that if party A does nothing but defend himself from party B then he will inevitably be worn down and defeated as the attacking party B is free to constantly regroup and attack endlessly. The only option to successfully defend against B is to go on the offensive and remove B’s attacking capabilities.
[QUOTE=MightyB;1063690]If not - then what can we do to get a truer representation of TCMA in the fighting world?[/QUOTE]
have patience. It’s starting to happen, but it’s a numbers thing.
How many boxing gyms have guys going into the ring? Most are there for the workout and light sparring, as is with most MA schools, whether it’s TCMA or MMA.
(Cage Fitness attests to this.MMA type training without the fighting, and it’s selling like hotcakes)
As the numbers increase, as more Sifus alter their training, you will start to see TCMA in more fight comps.
The first UFC was twenty years ago,or so. Look how long it took for MMA to come mainstream.
[QUOTE=lkfmdc;1063639]all the traditional stances in TCMA exist in “real fights”
BUT they don’t exist as static postures like they are trained and conceived by many (most?)[/QUOTE]
ah..this is what happens when you skip a page.
so, yeah..what he said…
Earth,
As a Praying Mantis practioner, you should understand the mentality behind TangLang Chuan that MightyB is looking for… we don’t start the fight, but sure as hell, we won’t let you be the first to land a strike. If we think you’re going to hit us, we’ll hit you first.
I think that’s the mentality Mighty is taking. He doesn’t want to start the fight, but he wants to fight aggressively if he has to fight.
To get a truer TCMA representation, TCMA fighters need to fight. They need to train their style in a fighting manner. Train like an MMA fighter, get in the ring alot. Train your style’s fighting tactics in the ring against someone who isn’t going to let you hit them, someone who is going to make you work for it and hit you back.
This is how my Sifu trains his students who want to be able to really fight. I may not be the best, but I can fight with the “flavor” of my style. (TJMH TLC).
[QUOTE=TenTigers;1063696]ah..this is what happens when you skip a page.
so, yeah..what he said…[/QUOTE]
Gentlemen… I’m talking only about the on-guard stance. I’ve been known to show many a person that the Ma Sig to Goon Sig (horse stance to bow and arrow stance) is the foundation for the tai-otoshi throw in Judo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-RA8P-DY1g
[QUOTE=TenTigers;1063694]have patience. It’s starting to happen, but it’s a numbers thing.
How many boxing gyms have guys going into the ring? Most are there for the workout and light sparring, as is with most MA schools, whether it’s TCMA or MMA.
(Cage Fitness attests to this.MMA type training without the fighting, and it’s selling like hotcakes)
As the numbers increase, as more Sifus alter their training, you will start to see TCMA in more fight comps.
The first UFC was twenty years ago,or so. Look how long it took for MMA to come mainstream.[/QUOTE]
It’s funny, my old boxing coach told me once only about 10 percent of people who go to his gym and train actually ever have a fight, most are simply there for the workout or for self defense purposes. This carries over into traditional and MMA gyms as well. Reading these forums one could get the sense that all MMA or combat sport gyms are filled with muscle bound, mohawk wearing, tatted up roid ragers who beat the sh**it out of each other six hours a night. The flip side of that coin is that traditional schools are a bunch of pasty white 95 pound nerds wearing silk pajamas and posturing around like a model on a runway.
“Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I’m not sure about the former.” ~Albert Einstein
that’s what I’m saying-the on guard stance should be moving, alive, and changing.
I don’t think anyone that has ever fought and been hit, will stand there in a pose, hands extended, etc. Outside critical distance, it doesn’t matter.pose all you want. Inside, you’d better be hitting or moving. When do you have a pose?
