Stretching

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Training and Health
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Thank you both for your posts…

A question for Scott, though…I’m not disputing what you’re saying, because you definitely sound like you’re pretty much an expert at this, and I don’t know squat, but I’m just trying to understand better. About the dynamic stretching, from what I read from Kurz, he says that you shouldn’t practice static stretching for the purpose of increasing your kicking flexibilty, and in fact, that doing static stretching before practicing kicking can actually be dangerous. I was under the impression from reading his stuff that beginners can do dynamic stretching, but that they have to take it very slowly and not over do it. Again, not trying to dispute you at all, just trying to understand better.

Thanx

22

Scott, you sneaked that post in just before I pressed submit. Hate it when that happens.

Anyway, really good advice, but it seems more directed at increasing the ability to perform the full splits. Sleemie seemed more interested in improving his kicking skills.

From all my research and experience, dynamic stretching is the best way to do that. I’ve met countless martial artist that can perform the most amazing high kicks, yet when you watch them performing static stretches in a warm up or warm down, a lot of them have trouble even touching their toes.

What are your views on this?

I would think that it’s ok for someone to practise dynamic or isometric stretching at an early stage in their stretching career as long as they’re doing it correctly and taking the right precautions. I guess you’re right that they may not have the necessary body awareness to know how to perform the exercises correctly, I’m just not sure I’d be quite that cautious.

Hope this doesn’t sound confrontational. I’m just interested in a bit of debate to pass some time when I should be working.

This is another one of those areas where there are so many different methods and viewpoints it must be pretty confusing for someone just learning about it.

:slight_smile:

23

Sleemie and wooha,

You are both very cordial and I take no offense with your questions. I am always happy to answer.

First, it is important to remember that as with all things every expert has their own opinion based upon their experience. Also, just because someone published a book, or a specific method is popular does not make it the best method to use. Methods of stretching have followed a progression of fads over the last 30 years. Some are beneficial, some are a waste of time. None are inherently better the than the tried and true (and safer) method of slow gentle stretching.

All the methods mentioned in this thread can work for just about anyone. However, our question is how to develop flexibility in the quickest and safest way.

Dynamic stretching increases the opportunity for injury. At Sleemie’s age we want to avoid over stretching because he basically has fewer years to waste recovering from injuries than a teenager or someone in their early twenties. Gentle dynamic stretching can be appropriate, but it is easy to get carried away and over stretch. The general excitement and competitive nature in many martial arts classes will tend to increase the chance of injury. Slow gentle stretching provides greater control and will lessen the opportunity for injury. The reason that slow static stretching is of benefit is that it becomes more difficult to over stretch when you perform dynamic stretching within your class. My life has literally been saved and I have avoided very serious injury a number of times because of my flexibility. It is possible to be too flexible if one’s muscular strength in not appropriate for their level of flexibility. This is why Bill Wallace had to reduce his 200 degree split back down to 180 degrees.

It has been in vogue to criticize the slow static method of stretching periodically over the last 30 or so years, but it is the most tried and true method and involves the least chance of injury and will provide for the most consistently flexible condition through your everyday activitiesA. Of course it does take a couple of years to develop the base, but it is by far the best and healthiest way to develop flexibility, regardless of what the most recent fad mongers say. It really comes down to who you choose to accept as your authority. You can always experiment and see which works best for you. But you at least have my recommendation.

I work nights and need to get some sleep now so if either of you have any further questions for me I will be happy to answer them later today.

I hope I have been of some help to you both,

24

Sleemie,

Okay a few more comments before I go to sleep. I re-read your post above. and I guess I should say a few more things.

It is not necessarily hazardous to do static stretching prior to kicking. There are certainly some precautions one should take, but it is a foolish statement of Kurz. I have taught Martial arts for over 25 years and have never had a student develop any problems whatsoever from static stretching prior to our training. I consider his comment ignorant or at least ill-informed.

However, having said this I do recommend the majority of static stretching be performed following the workout and not prior. The danger of static streching prior to training only comes about if the training is too intense too soon after the stretching. Or if the student has over-stretched. That is stretched beyond their physical limit, but not necessarilly pulled a muscle. As with all exercise, intensity should be increased gradually to avoid injury.

Static stretching is excellent for developing kicking flexibility, however one must still perform kicks. Nothing is better than performing the specific activity. Static stretching will increase your kicking flexibiilty, but it is primarily necessary to protect you from over stretching when performing kicks. This is very easy to do.

Later on when I have more time I will give you my “kick stretching” program. It is the warm up program I follow prior to performing my kicks. I generally perform my static stretches following my kicking workout.

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Okay…thanx again for the information, and I would really appreciate the information on a routine.

On the dynamic stretching…maybe I should clarify on what I intended on doing with that because it’s a very simple routine that I see as being less strenuous and dangerous than performing the actual kicks themselves, unless of course I don’t understand it correctly. As instructed by Kurz and wooha, I was simply going to gently raise the leg forward/backwards/sideways in a kicking motion and then towards the end of the lift put a LITTLE bit of velocity on it, and then do like a set of 12 of those for each direction and each leg. Whereas when I do a kick, I’m putting a lot of velocity when I raise my leg to do the kick, so I figured the dynamic stretching is safer than actually kicking.

It sounds almost like I’m back to the beginning with all of this, which is what I was previously taught over the years…that the best way to improve the flexibility of my kicks is to simply do the kicks, and to do the static stretching to keep from pulling a muscle while practicing the kicks.

I dunno…I so confuuuused…

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Dynamic Stretches

The main thing to know about and to be sure to do with dynamic stretches is that it is not the same as ballistic stretching and you have to be careful to be sure it doesn’t turn into that. The key is to kick your hand while doing the stretches, and to position the hand at about the limit of your flexibility. This does two things: allows your body not to ‘slow down’ at the end of the swing (since it knows it will be stopped) and prevents one from overstretching.

When you start out, place your hand around waist-height and increase the hand a little bit each kick, feeling your way along. Kicks should be speedy, but not class-speed (and not be a leg lift either). You may feel a bit of tightness while kicking, but you shouldn’t feel pain. Over time, you’ll be able to start your hand higher and also need less time to achieve maximum height. Stop the drill when you can’t really go any higher – kicking for too long at the same height will train the neurons not to go further.

I used to do this routine every morning after about 10 minutes of joint rotations and light warm-up, and didn’t suffer any injury and saw my flexibility increase. And let me tell you, after years of bike riding and studio, I am one very inflexible guy :P. I think 95% of the people in my KF class are more flexible than I…

Hope this helps a bit,

Kannik

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should the speed of the kick be consistent from start to end, or should the end of it be a bit quicker with a little more lift to it then the rest of it.

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Sleemie,

That program sounds safe enough to me. Slow is always better than fast. Static stretching will increase your overall flexibility faster, but performing both types together will be of great benefit. I am mostly concerned that you protect yourself from injury. Believe me I have injured myself seriously before. Over 20 years ago I actually dislocated my hip performing kicks improperly and with improper clothing. If I had not been exceptionly flexible I would have had much more damage than I sustained. As it was it took about 18 months to completely heal. Because of my flexibility I have no permanent damage. I can kick now as I did then.

My kick warmups are just about the same as the dynamic stretch program that you have designed, except that I don’t do any dynamic movements. Think of them as just doing the kicks while holding onto the kitchen counter and stretching the base leg while moving the kicking leg in perfect kicking form. I adjust the stretch intensity by adjusting the height of the kick and the lean of my body. I perform about 20 kicks per leg in sets of 10 alternating legs and do Front kick, Side kick, Front legged Roundhouse, and Hook kicks. It takes about 15-20 minutes depending upon how long I take inbetween sets and how stiff I am that particular day. I still begin my kicking workout slow until my leg muscles get warmed up. These stretches will increase my immediate flexibility, but they do not warm up the muscles enough to perform fast hard kicks.

Don’t worry too much about getting confused. You will progress no matter which system you use as long as you start slow and protect yourself from injury. For every person you will find a different opinion. All we can go on is our personal experiences. Soon you will have enough experience to share your own opinion with all of us. You are doing the right thing by investigating the opinions of those that have gone before you. LOL!!! The hardest decsion is usually trying to determine who to believe. Experiment for yourself and you will find what works for you. Everyone’s path is slighty different anyway.

The most improtant things to remember with stretching is are: 1) be consistent, and 2) protect yourself from injury. From there it just takes time.

I hope this helps.

29

Scott,

You didn’t mention whether you performed the kicks in your warm-up fast or slow. If you’re performing them fast, I’d argue that you are actually performing dynamic stretches. If you’re performing them slowly, you’re actually performing an active stretch. Either way, this is not static stretching.

In any case, I’d agree that this is a good way to begin your kicking workout.

It is not necessarily hazardous to do static stretching prior to kicking. There are certainly some precautions one should take, but it is a foolish statement of Kurz. I have taught Martial arts for over 25 years and have never had a student develop any problems whatsoever from static stretching prior to our training. I consider his comment ignorant or at least ill-informed.

You agree later on in your post that there is a danger if the physical activity or the stretching is too intense. I think Kurtz is simply highlighting this factor in his writings. His main point is that static stretching isn’t actually helpful in preparing for a kicking workout.

I’ve spoken to several martial artists and gymnasts that have said that after static stretching they’ve always felt a little less loose when performing dynamic type movements. My experience has always been the same.

Your point about the competetive nature of classes leading to students over-doing dynamic stretches could just as easily apply to static stretching. I’ve lost count of how many pulled groins I’ve seen due to over zealous inner thigh stretches. I think if you have faith in your ability to coach your students to use the proper care in stretching, you shouldn’t be afraid of using dynamic stretches.

It has been in vogue to criticize the slow static method of stretching periodically over the last 30 or so years, but it is the most tried and true method and involves the least chance of injury and will provide for the most consistently flexible condition through your everyday activitiesA. Of course it does take a couple of years to develop the base, but it is by far the best and healthiest way to develop flexibility, regardless of what the most recent fad mongers say. It really comes down to who you choose to accept as your authority. You can always experiment and see which works best for you. But you at least have my recommendation.

I think you’re being unnecessarily cautious. If I can use a metaphor.. Say you needed to get somewhere. In your view walking there is the tried and tested, most risk-free way to get there, and therefore that’s the only method you should use. I’m saying it may not be the fastest or most effective way to travel, especially if your destination is far away, like on another continent.

I disagree that these methods of stretching are a ‘fad’.

You’ve given us your history, and it’s impressive. You’ve certainly been doing this a long time. I think I should share my stretching story.

I always wanted good flexibility and concentrated on it in my training. I struggled for two or three years with the traditional static stretching methods you’re speaking of, performing them in my warm up and in my own flexibility training. They helped me to an extent but eventually I stopped improving. After several years of not much improvement I decided to educate myself about flexibility. I did as much research as I could, and in doing so discovered different ways of stretching.

Within about three months of incorporating dynamic and isometric stretches in my training, my kicks were higher and looser than ever. I was performing full splits every which way, and felt much more comfortable with my training.

My story is definitely not unique.

Don’t worry too much about getting confused. You will progress no matter which system you use as long as you start slow and protect yourself from injury. For every person you will find a different opinion. All we can go on is our personal experiences. Soon you will have enough experience to share your own opinion with all of us. You are doing the right thing by investigating the opinions of those that have gone before you. LOL!!! The hardest decsion is usually trying to determine who to believe. Experiment for yourself and you will find what works for you. Everyone’s path is slighty different anyway.

The most improtant things to remember with stretching is are: 1) be consistent, and 2) protect yourself from injury. From there it just takes time.

Definitely.. well said.

Whew.. that was a long post.

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Hi wooha,

I do not warm up with dynamic stretching and never do and do not recommend dynamic stretching as a warm up. However, dynamic stretching would be appropriate “after” one is warmed up. I do not believe that I stated my warm up for kicks was a static form of stretching, however if you want to call it active stretching I guess it depends on how you define active and static. If one is in a stretched position and holding the stretch I would call that static no matter what position one is in. It is not active just because it is a standing position or there is some movement involved.

I have never actually read Kurz so all I know about his writing is what has been posted here. I can say that he is wrong about static stretching being of no benefit in preparation for a kicking workout. While I do not generally warm up this way I have done so more times than I can remember and still do so at times. It has provided me with an excellent form of warm up if I am not kicking first thing in the morning. If I do my kicks after I have been up for 4-8 hours then my muscles are already warm from moving around and if I statically stretch prior to performing kicks I experience no problems. I think Kurz is incorrect in his evaluation of the efficacy of static stretching.

As to the competitive nature of stretching in class: I think you have over stated your case. While stretching can be competitive it is no where near as competitive as more active forms of training where control is more difficult for a beginning student. Warm ups are generally lower key activities and static stretching instruction should include constant reminders for the beginning students to follow proper protocol. There is much greater control of stretching intensity when performing static stretches than dynamic activities of any kind. In other words, over stretching from static stretches will generally occur because of lack of attention to your body or not following directions properly rather than from over enthusiasm, which is much more likely to occur when performing any type of dynamic activity.

You are correct I believe it is better to be slow and sure than risk error and injury by going too fast. My argument has been that dynamic stretching may appear to provide more efficient and quicker results to those with little knowledge and experience; however, this is an illusion. When one is a beginner or has not performed sufficient research into a matter it is easy to misinterpret data and reinterpret data according to what we want to find. I disagree with Kurz’s opinions as stated within this thread and have years of evidence and personal experience to argue against his opinions.

If you had participated in the fitness culture as deeply and as long as I have you would perhaps recognize the tendency for fads within the culture. Fads are rampant and rife with foolishness. There has been no significant increase in the knowledge of training in the last 50 years or more. Even the many fads that come about have been done before and I am not arguing that all of the fads are useless; they are just not original or new discoveries. There has been no significant knowledge gained in a long time. It is just the same knowledge repackaged for the ignorant masses for the purpose of marketing.

I would say that if you have received no significant benefits from your static stretching, then you were doing something wrong. Since I do not know you or your progression in training I cannot say what your error was, but from experience I can say that it was there somewhere. I would also argue that the benefit of your dynamic stretching program was born out of your static stretching foundation.

We can go back and forth concerning these matters and all matters under the sun. It comes down to who one chooses to accept as their authority. The question always remains, who to believe when authorities disagree. The answer is that each person must investigate for themselves and find the method that works best for them. There is never only one way to do anything. One should gather information from numerous sources and apply and experiment with the knowledge and then decide what works best for them.

31

Scott et al,
One thing that Kurz does mention particularly in his video is that you have to strengthen muscles/muscle groups before doing isometrics. I am 40 and finding his methods useful but I also find light static stretches useful too. I think it suits Wing Chun though probably not other arts.

Kurz stresses the importance of having a strong back before you attempt dynamic exercises. He argues that when kicking you are putting quite a bit of stress on your abdomen so before trying kicking he suggests you do exercises to strenghten your back. I don’t think the book stresses this as much as his video. For kicking after you’ve strengthend your back he suggests you try adductor flyes upto a set of 100. When you can do that comfortably he suggests you add a pound of weight and go to 100 repetitions. After that, add more weight and reduce the flyes to a maximum of 30 and then 15 (with more weight).

In general, I am a lazy sod and don’t bother with that but I do try to do leg raises in all directions.

Kurz recommends a light session in the morning and a light session before your main workout. After your light workout he then suggests some static stretching or isometrics. (He suggests isometrics should be omitted if you are tired).

I don’t do the morning sessions as I cannot always find the time - sometimes I prefer extra sleep over stretching !!!).

In the WC key class I do static stretches are fine because the intensity increases at each stage. The cooldown consists of more intense stretches - personally I prefer to do dynamic stretching then over static stretches because I find dynamic stretches are a better cooldown for me.

Very good thread this.

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Scott

You didn’t exactly answer my question, but from what you wrote it appears that you’re performing slow movements in your kicking warm up. The reason this kind of stretching is considered different from a static-passive stretch, is because in holding out the stretch, you’re actually activating the agonist muscles. When an agonist is tensed, it’s counterpart antagonist muscle reflexively relaxes.

For example, if you were to hold out your leg in a front kick position, the quadricep (agonist) would be doing the work in keeping your leg in a stretch position. Your nerve-muscle reflexes would make your hamstring (antagonist) automatically relax, thus allowing you more range of motion.

In a static-passive stretch (eg.. performing the splits), you’re using some kind of external resistance to maintain the stretched position (eg. the floor). In this case you’ll encounter a stretch reflex in your hamstring causing it to tighten up and resist the stretch.

Although I can’t say I’ve participated in the fitness culture as long as you have, I definitely know what you mean with regard to fads. I’ve seen more than enough to know that you have to question everything you read or hear. However, that doesn’t mean you have to immediately dismiss everything that comes along just because it’s different from what you already know. In this case, some of these ‘fads’ are fairly well backed up by solid science, and have been proven to work in numerous studies.

This is the first page my google search pulled up, you’d be interested in all of it, but in particular read the second half under ‘What kind of stretching works best?’.

http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0250.htm

It’s also interesting to point out that a lot of these ‘fads’ aren’t actually so new. They’re just enjoying new exposure. Not long ago I was reading about a particular style of Yoga that utilised methods very similar to PNF stretching.

From what you’ve written so far, it seems to me that you’ve got about 25 years of experience in the flexibility area, but in all that time you’ve only ever used one particular method. Just out of interest, have you ever experimented yourself with isometric, dynamic or PNF stretching, or even known anyone that has? Do you know anyone that’s put serious time into practising these techniques and has come back to you and said “No, they don’t work”?

You’re right, we can argue about this on and on and never really get anywhere, because different things work for different people and so on. What’s keeping me in this discussion though, is this ‘fad’ thing. That makes me uneasy, because it smells to me like a convenient way to discredit something without much research or information.

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wooha,

Thanks for the info. I’ll look into it.

It is not that I don’t look into it. It is the info is not new and and has been around the pike already.

I like the way you disagree though.

34

Heh heh. :smiley:

I like the way you like the way I disagree.

Nice debating with you. :slight_smile:

35

I like to see you guys disagree this way, it’s very constructive and respectful.

With all of this information floating around in these posts, I’ve given up on finding the ideal stretching routine, so…what I’m looking to do is just make sure that I’m not doing any DON’TS…never mind the ideal, I’m only looking for any serious don’ts…so, tell me which of my following routines are don’ts, if any:

  1. Getting warmed up by practicing my punches and stances, including sitting in my horse stance for as long as I can, which really get’s me warmed up and the blood flowing and sweating. Then, doing my kicks, then do the dynamic stretching, which is simply the kurz leg lifts to the front/back/side, and then finishing it off with my static stretching…

  2. After my workout at class, finishing everything off with the dynamic stretching and then the static stretching.

  3. Before class…doing about 5 minutes of jumping jacks to get warmed up, then doing my dynamic stretch routine and then static stretching then having class…

btw, class consists of about 10 minutes of static stretching during warm ups and then sitting in our horse stance for 3 minutes. Then class itself is practicing our kicks and some punching and blocking techniques.

36

Sleemie,
To start with I’d do joint rotations from head to foot or foot to head.

Next a little jogging on the spot then punching to the side and the kicking movements but done in a very relaxed way (Kurz kicks)

Then your work out (punches/kicks etc)

Then your stance and some static stretching.
If you feel energetic (some isometrics).

After your workout drink plenty of water and relax !

37

Sleemie,

I can’t see any serious don’ts in that routine. Give it a try, experiment. Try to find a routine that you feel works for you. That sounds like as good a starting point as any.

I have to say this has been an excellent thread. It’s nice to see a serious insightful thread debated like this, especially on KFO, where serious insightful threads are about as rare as single attractive women.

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Three (3)