"Sport fighting"

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
21

Another case in point is the ninja vs the samurai. The samurai fought, in many duels anyway, according to some kind of established rules of conduct, they wanted to win with honor, while the ninja were only interested in winning, no matter how it was done and to he!! with honor.

Ninjas, dude seriously ?
First off all, all the Ninja BS aside, Ninjas were typically samurai, “special ops samurai”.
Second, there was no better trained fighter in Japan and, arguably Asia, than the samurai on a one-on-one basis.
They were trained to kill from the moment they could walk.
There were NO rules of conduct in a battle and even in a duel, the only “rule” ( and this was because it was a duel, was “name and linage stating”.
This romantized idead of samurai honour and such is of the movies and from post tokugawa era literature.

22

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;963386]Ninjas, dude seriously ?
First off all, all the Ninja BS aside, Ninjas were typically samurai, “special ops samurai”.
Second, there was no better trained fighter in Japan and, arguably Asia, than the samurai on a one-on-one basis.
They were trained to kill from the moment they could walk.
There were NO rules of conduct in a battle and even in a duel, the only “rule” ( and this was because it was a duel, was “name and linage stating”.
This romantized idead of samurai honour and such is of the movies and from post tokugawa era literature.[/QUOTE]

well, actually ninja were not samurai. But they did do the dirty work for samurai becaus ethe samurai were honor bound and could not do the dirty work that ninjas did.

samurai were a class of nobility. ninja were hired goons usually skilled in martial arts and various other form of thuggery.

they didn’t all run around wearing tabi’s being all quiet and such, sometimes they came in the form of a gang of men who did a home invasion and murdered a samurais commander or something so that the samurai could advance in position and rank without having any questions brought to light about his sacred honour.

The whole army of trained assassins is a modern myth and is pretty much 99% crap.

Now, the skills that are offered as ninja training such as ninpo and aido, stealth etc are legit, but there was NEVER and I repeat NEVER an organized and agendized ninja force that was at the disposal of the japanese upper class.

They were generally lowlifes who couldn’t be connected to the nobility who carried out the dishonourable deeds of the upper classes.

Kinda like going to a seedy bar and finding some unscrupulous person and hiring them to do a criminal job for you.

In short, ninjas were the scum of society and that’s why they functioned in teh shadows. They had NO honour at all.

Please don’t believe the nonsense american ninja crap mythology it is 100% crap and was born of idealizing silly movies and fairytales.

not saying anything is wrong with the karate those people do, just saying they wrap it all up in a tale of nonsense that any amateur historian researcher can completely tear apart in about 3 minutes. lol

23

[QUOTE=David Jamieson;963396]well, actually ninja were not samurai. But they did do the dirty work for samurai becaus ethe samurai were honor bound and could not do the dirty work that ninjas did.

samurai were a class of nobility. ninja were hired goons usually skilled in martial arts and various other form of thuggery.

they didn’t all run around wearing tabi’s being all quiet and such, sometimes they came in the form of a gang of men who did a home invasion and murdered a samurais commander or something so that the samurai could advance in position and rank without having any questions brought to light about his sacred honour.

The whole army of trained assassins is a modern myth and is pretty much 99% crap.

Now, the skills that are offered as ninja training such as ninpo and aido, stealth etc are legit, but there was NEVER and I repeat NEVER an organized and agendized ninja force that was at the disposal of the japanese upper class.

They were generally lowlifes who couldn’t be connected to the nobility who carried out the dishonourable deeds of the upper classes.

Kinda like going to a seedy bar and finding some unscrupulous person and hiring them to do a criminal job for you.

In short, ninjas were the scum of society and that’s why they functioned in teh shadows. They had NO honour at all.

Please don’t believe the nonsense american ninja crap mythology it is 100% crap and was born of idealizing silly movies and fairytales.

not saying anything is wrong with the karate those people do, just saying they wrap it all up in a tale of nonsense that any amateur historian researcher can completely tear apart in about 3 minutes. lol[/QUOTE]

Ninja, those that did stealth work and espionage, came origianly from the samurai ranks, koryu systems such as the various branches of the Shinkage and the TSKSR all have ninjutsu as part of their original curriculm and it was taught to samurai.
Sure there was “low class” ninjas. just as there were low class samurai.
Samurai were NOT nobility, they were a warrior class.

24

the point is samurai “in general” followed a code of conduct…ninja did not. REAL winners break the rules to win because winning is the MOST important thing, NOT winning according to arbitrary rules that do nothing other than interfer with the goal. ESPECIALLY in matters of killing!

25

[QUOTE=uki;963373]nice post scott… ray seems to have his head in a bowl of glue when it comes to being “tough” and “sport fighting”. :D[/QUOTE]

So I should believe that some drunken form dude who plays with fake weapons would be willing to fight me with baseball bats or pipes and no rules… but he won’t go a few rounds with gloves?

No rules apply to both people. I’m guessing the more aggressive person, that fights regularly for fun and/or money would go further easier then the person unaccustomed to violence.

You’re talking to me as if I didn’t spend over 10 years in Kwoons. Some Hung Gar form champion asked to borrow my saber in class one day and I warned him it was real, to be careful. The fool split his thumb down the middle testing the edge. No one would use it because it was heavy and sharp. < ----- that’s your Kung Fu weapon’s expert.

I’m actually fed up with this argument.

You guys are right. You’re all very dangerous men.

26

[QUOTE=Scott R. Brown;963404]the point is samurai “in general” followed a code of conduct…ninja did not. REAL winners break the rules to win because winning is the MOST important thing, NOT winning according to arbitrary rules that do nothing other than interfer with the goal. ESPECIALLY in matters of killing![/QUOTE]

Nonsense.
Duels were prearranged combative matches, you can’t compare them to what the samurai did in wartime or on the battlefield.
Breaking “rules” is as easy as cutting pie.

27

[QUOTE=Ray Pina;963406]You guys are right. You’re all very dangerous men.[/QUOTE]

That is one of the points Ray:

  1. Everyone has the potential to be more dangerous than you! Especially if they really want to kill you or hurt you. And if they really want too kill you or hurt you, they aren’t going to play around with rules and gloves. They will ensure that they will win and you will lose no matter what…and that means, sneaking, ganging up on you, getting you drunk first, sniping you, running over you with their car, etc. If you knew any REAL bad guys you would know that. I worked in a prison for 12 years, I have known wannabe wusses, and REALLY, REALLY BAD DUDES!! The bad dudes REALLY did the things I said they would do, and worse things I don’t mention. While you think you are laughing at wannabes here, they would be laughing at you and calling you a wannabe!

  2. You are not nearly as “dangerous” or “tough” as you think you are! You come off as a very insecure person with something to prove to yourself and everyone else. I say this because you have been going on and on about the same thing ever since you have been on this board.

If you were truly confident in your postition, why do you care what anyone else thinks. Just quietly do your thing, and F everyone else!

Hopefully you will never meet up with anyone who wants to eat your spleen for dinner and you can go on living in your own little fantasy just like everyone else does.

28

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;963408]Nonsense.
Duels were prearranged combative matches, you can’t compare them to what the samurai did in wartime or on the battlefield.
Breaking “rules” is as easy as cutting pie.[/QUOTE]

Sanjuro…that is my point, duels are prearrange encounters with rules of conduct…the real world of winning does not. Of course the samurai broke the rules in battle, but many times they did so behind the scenes so they could maintain an outward appearance of honor!

29

[QUOTE=Scott R. Brown;963417]Sanjuro…that is my point, duels are prearrange encounters with rules of conduct…the real world of winning does not. Of course the samurai broke the rules in battle, but many times they did so behind the scenes so they could maintain an outward appearance of honor![/QUOTE]

I think your notion of samurai honour is a bit, well, movie oriented.
The code of Bushido was more an invention of the late 17th century than of the apex of samurai warfare.
Sneak attacks, surprise attacks, poisons and betrayals were common place and done openly.

30

[QUOTE=Ray Pina;963406]So I should believe that some drunken form dude who plays with fake weapons would be willing to fight me with baseball bats or pipes and no rules… but he won’t go a few rounds with gloves? [/quote]first… if you are implying that i play with fake weapons i can assure you you are truly misguided in your assumption… secondly you have to remember that going a few rounds with gloves is far different than defending your life or your childrens life.

I’m guessing the more aggressive person, that fights regularly for fun and/or money would go further easier then the person unaccustomed to violence.
and you are this aggressive man accostomed to violence?? what is your day job? aren’t you the guy who tells people to lower their eyes in the event of a confrontation - if i remember correctly you got beat up a few time with pipes and stuff and now you walk around and lower your eyes… you justify it because you had to swallow your pride, yet perhaps your pride was the reason for your beat down?? LOL… each to their own man, but i will look death straight in the eye, you know why?? cuz i don’t effing care, that’s why. i have dignity and will meet my aggressors face to face when the time comes.

You’re talking to me as if I didn’t spend over 10 years in Kwoons.
and you speak to me as if you do not believe 1000 years of experience can manifest in an instant…

Some Hung Gar form champion asked to borrow my saber in class one day and I warned him it was real, to be careful. The fool split his thumb down the middle testing the edge. No one would use it because it was heavy and sharp. < ----- that’s your Kung Fu weapon’s expert.
my god you are such a dangerous dude!!! LOL… i have cut myself plenty practicing with my sharp swords and you know what?? i sew myself back together again by hand(have you yet?) and keep on practicing and learning from my mistakes…

I’m actually fed up with this argument.
that is simply because you take it too personally… who fucking cares? really?

You guys are right. You’re all very dangerous men.
amen brother… now you are getting somewhere. :smiley:

[QUOTE=Scott R. Brown;963415]That is one of the points Ray:

  1. Everyone has the potential to be more dangerous than you! Especially if they really want to kill you or hurt you. And if they really want too kill you or hurt you, they aren’t going to play around with rules and gloves. They will ensure that they will win and you will lose no matter what…and that means, sneaking, ganging up on you, getting you drunk first, sniping you, running over you with their car, etc. If you knew any REAL bad guys you would know that. I worked in a prison for 12 years, I have known wannabe wusses, and REALLY, REALLY BAD DUDES!! The bad dudes REALLY did the things I said they would do, and worse things I don’t mention. While you think you are laughing at wannabes here, they would be laughing at you and calling you a wannabe!

  2. You are not nearly as “dangerous” or “tough” as you think you are! You come off as a very insecure person with something to prove to yourself and everyone else. I say this because you have been going on and on about the same thing ever since you have been on this board.

If you were truly confident in your postition, why do you care what anyone else thinks. Just quietly do your thing, and F everyone else!

Hopefully you will never meet up with anyone who wants to eat your spleen for dinner and you can go on living in your own little fantasy just like everyone else does.[/QUOTE]all i can say if wow. nice effing post man. he’ll be able to poop a block truck after that ripping… :stuck_out_tongue:

31

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;963421]I think your notion of samurai honour is a bit, well, movie oriented.
The code of Bushido was more an invention of the late 17th century than of the apex of samurai warfare.
Sneak attacks, surprise attacks, poisons and betrayals were common place and done openly.[/QUOTE]

They were not “always” done in the open, and when they were it was considered socially unacceptable just as it is today, except perhaps amongst ones private group of friends!

The ideal of honor occurred primarily on a personal level. Just because not everyone had a sense of honor does not mean no one did! It was no different than it is today and in every other society in history. There is the “official” socially accepted ideal of appropriate behavior that was demonstrated to the public, and the real-life underhanded dealings that do not see the light of day.

Which is again my point…those who really want to win, don’t care about rules and honor, except outward appearance to the public, all they care about is winning!

Perhaps you would benefit by reading a comprehensive historical account of the Battle of Sekigahara.

32

[QUOTE=Scott R. Brown;963425]They were not “always” done in the open, and when they were it was considered socially unacceptable just as it is today, except perhaps amongst ones private group of friends!

The ideal of honor occurred primarily on a personal level. Just because not everyone had a sense of honor does not mean no one did! It was no different than it is today and in every other society in history. There is the “official” socially accepted ideal of appropriate behavior that was demonstrated to the public, and the real-life underhanded dealings that do not see the light of day.

Which is again my point…those who really want to win, don’t care about rules and honor, except outward appearance to the public, all they care about is winning!

Perhaps you would benefit by reading a comprehensive historical account of the Battle of Sekigahara.[/QUOTE]

I spent 5 years at the Japanese cultural center not only learning Judo and kendo but Bushido and Japanese History as it relates to the samurai and the MA of ancient Japan.
Samurai were some of the biggest *******s on the face of the planet.
Just like every other warrior caste.

33

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;963429]I spent 5 years at the Japanese cultural center not only learning Judo and kendo but Bushido and Japanese History as it relates to the samurai and the MA of ancient Japan.
Samurai were some of the biggest *******s on the face of the planet.
Just like every other warrior caste.[/QUOTE]

LOL!! I agree, so are Politicians, but that doesn’t mean there are not public ideals of socially acceptable behavior “separate” from the REAL hidden reality!

34

[QUOTE=Scott R. Brown;963430]LOL!! I agree, so are Politicians, but that doesn’t mean there are not public ideals of socially acceptable behavior “separate” from the REAL hidden reality![/QUOTE]

LOL, can’t argue with that there !!

35

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;963429]
Samurai were some of the biggest *******s on the face of the planet.
Just like every other warrior caste.[/QUOTE]just like every case of people given too much power without having a responsible merit…

36

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;963429]I spent 5 years at the Japanese cultural center not only learning Judo and kendo but Bushido and Japanese History as it relates to the samurai and the MA of ancient Japan.
Samurai were some of the biggest *******s on the face of the planet.
Just like every other warrior caste.[/QUOTE]

Indeed. But they’re reign spanned some 700 years in Japan.

There was a time in their history when they, as a class exuded virtue.

With time, everything rots, rusts or becomes corrupted.

Except essences. Which are not material. :slight_smile:

muwhahahaha.

37

[QUOTE=David Jamieson;963454]Except essences. Which are not material.[/quote]reminds me of a mushroom spore…

muwhahahaha.
they say laughter is the best medicine… apparently a healthy intellect is beneficial.

38

well i can tell you guys from experience, ninjas are the baddest dudes, cuz im a ninja, and i know these things. id give you video evidence, but im so ninja, i dont show up on film.

or wait…was that vampires…

39

Forget the past. I’m really getting a good chuckle out of the present… now these guys are swordsmen:) They’re starting to give up on the stand up thing (there big names won’t go fight) so now they need to be feared and respected for their swordplay.

These guys are no more swordsmen then they are pugilists.

40

[QUOTE=Ray Pina;963468]Forget the past. I’m really getting a good chuckle out of the present… now these guys are swordsmen:) They’re starting to give up on the stand up thing (there big names won’t go fight) so now they need to be feared and respected for their swordplay.

These guys are no more swordsmen then they are pugilists.[/QUOTE]LOL… you are a more transparent than a plane of glass…