Something else I was thinking about...How do you approach the traditional vs eclectic styles fightin

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Street/Reality Fighting
41

Very much agreed.

I think that sometimes I am too cluttered with “eclecticism” as Seven puts it…

I want to finish out and master the art of wing chun, but after training with my step brother years ago have not been able to find another suitable teacher to continue with. This is just one example out of many that can inadvertently spawn an eclectic fighter. I trained in what I could when I could, and my body retains what it retains. The end result is one so unique that no one could duplicate it.

I think in life one does what they have to do. I love martial arts, all types. Its an avenue in my life that I need to function correctly. Thats the bottom line for me. I grow tired of many of the styles wars, although I do have my opinions of what works and what doesnt, Im sure the opinion varies from person to person based on experience of course.

How is it, that those of you who have some eclectic background, have come to be that way?

And also, those of you who are more traditional orientated, how is it that you think your style has come to be as far as techniques are concerned?

Just some more food for thought…

“From one thing know ten thousand” - Miyomato Musashi, Book of five rings

42

Vankuen,

I have learned or dabbled in other systems. I don’t consider myself ‘eclectic’ as defined by collecting techniques from other systems though. I look at my experiences in other systems as exposure and knowledge, but for one reason or another, I never stuck with them. Nor did I attempt to take a kick from A, a punch from B, and a hip throw from C.

Like most people, I started with what was in my area. Reading MA magazines, books, and the internet have exposed me to other arts. I’ve left arts because of injury, instructor attitudes, relocation, instructor divorce, etc. It wasn’t until I found my current Sifu that I felt growth as a MA and decided to stay and invest the time to learn and explore my art. The traditional arts are very deep but it takes a good instructor to be able to teach the different subtleties.

I am an ‘eclectic’ within my traditional system. I learn the concepts, but try to apply them in ways that suit my own body and mentality. We learn a system but how we express the concepts is our own individual style.

I think that an eclectic system is an oxymoron. Take a look at modern JKD. I think that once you take some techniques and create ways to drill them, develop some overlying concepts, figure out a teaching methodology, and begin teaching everything under a regimented curriculum, then the eclectic becomes a system in the traditional sense.

IMHO the difference between ‘eclectic’ and ‘traditional’ is that most traditional systems have certain concepts, themes, or guidelines that they feel is the best way to fight. This is developed over many years from many different instructors contributing. Everything else derives from these. A lot of times (from what I have seen) the ‘eclectic’ styles don’t have this glue that binds everything together.

Dzu

43

Vankuen,

I think I know what you mean.

Why did I become eclectic? Well, I started in taekwondo with a friend of mine. I was good. He was better. And it became frustrating continually being bested by a friend. Embarrassing too.

At that age, the solution was to start over elsewhere. Learn something he didn’t know. So that I’d have it over him, in theory if not in practice. (I was about 17 then. Made sense at the time.)

So I went to eskrima, based on what I had observed of Dan Inosanto. After being in a commercial school for 6 years, give or take, I was happy with what I’d learned but not with the environment. To many children, too much emphasis on demonstrations, sparring not free enough, etc. So I found a teacher from Inosanto’s lineage in the area and went there.

After that, a series of moves introduced me to different instructors. Wherever I ended up, I’d find something or someone. And I’d practice with them for a while.

It was never really my intent to absorb different styles or anything like that. Just to keep practicing wherever I ended up. I did make conscious decisions to address shortcomings though. When I thought the eskrima school was no longer helping me much, I left. Not the style. The school.

Thing is that the more different instructors I met, the more varying ideas began to fit into a central framework I was developing. So that regardless of whether I was learning eskrima or shotokan, there were still commonalities that I could understand. So the common theme was always me. That’s my sense of eclecticism (thanks SevenStar).

That said, where there isn’t commonality, I’d stil try to find someone to teach me. Grappling, for instance. Completely foreign territory. So a study of that is a deliberate and conscious choice on my part to be ‘eclectic.’

Stuart B.

44

Dzu,

Nice post. I agreed with much of it.

The one thing I would add is that the glue that binds an eclectic approach is you. So that your eclectic practice is only as cohesive as you make it.

The traditional arts come with that cohesion. And that’s an advantage in a sense. As long as the cohesion doesn’t prevent one from acknowledging potential contributions from outside.

But as far as eclectics, if a person is going around trying to collect the kicking from one style, the hands from another, and the wrestling from yet another, I agree that it may well lack the necessary cohesion. But if a person develops a framework then passes other ideas through that framework, then I think the eclectic result can work.

It’s a tough distinction for me to make sense of now that I’m trying. But I think it’s an important one, all the same. Is your emphasis on collecting styles or on looking constantly at yourself, identifying strengths and weaknesses, and making informed choices based on that?

That’s the glue that keeps eclecticism together, to my mind.

Stuart B.

45

Yes I’d agree that the individual is what binds everything together. The system is constantly changing, in a sense, by the different instructors throughout the years. So although your style is uniquely your own, when you begin to teach it to others, it becomes a system that they draw upon to develop their own style. I think everything starts eclectic but the more people that touch it, the more it becomes a collection of knowledge that each subsequent student can draw upon.

I think the ‘traditional’ label leads people to believe that the system is unchanging when in actuality it is constantly changing. I seriously doubt that any traditional art is the same as when it was first conceived. ‘Traditional’ refers to the cultural origins and boundary for a system. It’s a means of categorizing things.

I think that as we move forward in the 21st century, we have global scale communication and more ways to share information. The MA are no longer limited in the provincial, cultural sense. You no longer are limited to whatever is within walking distance. Your MA has exposure to everything that is out there.

Two hundred years from now, their may no longer be eclectic MA vs traditional MA vs Mixed MA. Everything will be combined into just ‘human style’ as the cultural boundries dwindle and we continue to evolve.

Dzu

[This message was edited by dzu on 10-11-01 at 11:00 AM.]

46

Dzu,

That’s really excellent. I’ll be referring people to this post the next time it comes up.

Stuart B.

47

Everyone…

Hey, I was just thinking about something else tonight. I like to ponder on things revolving about training realistically…

I was practicing my wing chun with a couple of loyal student-friends, and one of them is a very very muscular man, probably about twice my size. We were going over drills that focused on turning to dissolve the energy and also simultaneously attacking whereever possible. I noticed that with a straight punch one of the drills worked great, but then a slight arc in the oncoming punch changed things dramatically.

So here is the thing I was pondering…why focus so much time on something where the only way it will work is to have the opponent attack in a very specific method?

Many styles fall to this dilemma, whether they choose to see it or not. The open minded individuals will see this to be true. So what would your answers be to this question?

“From one thing know ten thousand” - Miyomato Musashi, Book of five rings

48

On the grappling thing, I haven’t been taught any in my kung fu class but Im new (only been to like 7 classes). I assume it is taught because before class I saw one of the instructors grappling with one of the senior students on the ground and when the 2 instructors were practicing one of 'em did some sort of standing armbar on the other one so its there.

49

"I noticed that with a straight punch one of the drills worked great, but then a slight arc in the oncoming punch changed things dramatically.

So here is the thing I was pondering…why focus so much time on something where the only way it will work is to have the opponent attack in a very specific method? "

Theoretically, that one way is a common way of attack. Also, the one way could be a foundation method. You learn to deal with that one way, you form a foundatioon of mechanics and comprehension to deal with others, to be determined in other lessons or drills~.

The purpose of a single exercise or drill is not to make you perfect for every attack variation. That’s what Understanding is for. The purpose of a single drill or exercise would be to introduce you to a concept, train you with some ground-work to be built upon. You’re to get very good at doing one thing~ for develpopment, understanding or both-ish.

Very some such, perhaps might have been, likely say some, some not.

50

That’s a good question, VanKuen.

I’ve pondered that same thing in WC myself, and I came to my own (misguided?) conclusion that many of WC’s drills were add-ons that don’t necessarily reflect the CORE CONCEPTS as presented in the 3 empty hand sets.

The WC style leaves tremendous room for variation, which is why we have a WC board filled with enthusiastic debatants. This technical flexibility is what makes not just WC, but many other traditional single kung fu styles very very TOUGH.

My personal practice focuses on the basics of my sets more than my own sifu’s does, and I do his drills willingly if a bit begrudgingly.

51

Drills are always being constructed

I agree with you for the most part. I think that drills have been created over and over again through the years, and through the various focus points of many teachers.

We all come up with drills to make our wing chun better, I personally love application drills, thats when you get to really “feel” the technique, and learn the ins and outs of what works and what doesnt…and if it doesnt, why. Could be the technique wasnt used to the application, could be I dont do the technique well enough, could be many things. But through diligence comes success.

“From one thing know ten thousand” - Miyomato Musashi, Book of five rings

52

Realistic Training

Martial arts practitioners veiw Self Defense, Self Protection or Self Preservation as a series of martial arts problems which they feel they will be able to solve within the framework of “their” art, largely ignoring the issues of larger/more skilled assailants, armed assailants or firearms. Gun people see it as a series of shooting scenarios, always assuming that they will be able to get the gun in their hand from it’s concealed carry holster or somehow have it at the ready and then miraculously be able to “fight” with it.

At The C.S.P.T. we do not veiw Self Preservation as a “boxing problem” or a “grappling problem” or a “shooting problem”… We veiw it as a survival problem! Whatever weapon you may be depending on is only a tool. You are the weapon. Your survival begins and ends with you.

The answer for surviving a violent encounter… Learn your best options at all ranges: empty hands, weapons and firearms. Learn the best training methods to develop them and train them under all circumstances and environments. This must be done structurally, methodically and dynamically.

We’ve updated the website.

There is an OC Spray class coming up too.

Demi Barbito
The C.S.P.T. - “A Lethal Force Institute”
www.DemiBarbito.com

53

Allright…that was lame.

He simply pasted his opening page add from his website onto this thread.

Is there any way to delete that post off this thread? Moderators wanna help here?

“From one thing know ten thousand” - Miyomato Musashi, Book of five rings

54

Vankuen,

I think I know what you mean about the drills. I was practicing hubud drills (filipino sensitivity drills similar, I’d guess, to chi sao). When I practice them with people from certain backgrounds, the drill flows very nicely. I expect it’s because certain styles punch with a looseness and fluidity that feeds into the drill.

Then when I tried to show hubud to a karate/tang soo do friend of mine, it didn’t work as well. His punching was so linear and so rigid that while evading it was far from impossible, it didn’t feed into the directional flow of the drill. I was stymied. I could have dealt with it, but not within that drill.

Still, I don’t think that the solution is to dismiss that drill. Perhaps the trick is to find the ‘root’ of the drill, train that, and then train the variations. So that, when the root doesn’t work, you’ve practiced flowing to the next possible solution.

For example, karateka punches. I try to transfer his arm upward and zone to the outside. But his arm isn’t flowing upward. It’s too rigid. So I instead launch into counterstrikes from there maybe. Take advantage of the opening left by the more rigid punching style.

I don’t know. What do you think?

Stuart B.

55

Drills are just exercises to isolate one particular aspect of the system. It’s not a surprise that you can’t practice a drill with someone from Karate/Tang Soo Do.

The reason sensitivity is so important is that it gives information that can be used to change in response to the opponent. If you do the drill mechanically and just go through the motions, you are ignoring the feedback given to you by your partner and may not be able to adjust when he doesn’t play by your rules. Let me ask you this: What are you trying to develop during hubud? What is the purpose of hubud?

There is a saying in Wing Chun: “Don’t play with hands.” It’s very easy to fall into the trap of ‘flowing’ for the sake of doing the drill and developing a rhythm with your partner. Then it becomes too much like a cooperative dance.

Vankuen,

I don’t know what drill you are doing but dissolving your energy should also be your simultaneous ‘attack’. If the energy or force changes slightly, you need to adjust your response to compensate for this. Your response has to be based upon feeling and then changing.

Dzu

56

Dzu,

I was practicing a transfer. Transferring an opponent’s attacking limb upward so that I can zone outside and behind him, limiting the threat of his other hand. It’s a technique that occurs within the basic hubud drill. (There are variations on hubud that address different angles of attack, the linear one perhaps being more appropriate in this case.)

The basic hubud pattern is actually designed to address a swinging motion (stick, on the most basic level). But if an opponent’s punching style is relatively relaxed and your timing’s okay, the transfer will still work off of a straight line attack.

The karate stylist’s punch was not relaxed. Didn’t want to be transferred. So, much like chi sau, the tactile feedback of hubud tells you to abandon the transfer and feed into something else. But my point was that the ‘something else’ should perhaps be built into that drill. So that you train flowing from a failed transfer into a centerline offensive, for example.

I think you hit the nail on the head. Can’t loose sight of the point of the drill. The drill doesn’t exist for its own sake. Only to facilitate an understanding. So while I was initally frustrated at being unable to properly execute the drill, now I’m trying to address the actual feedback I got from that.

Stuart B.

57

Isn’t the history of CMAs filled with “cross-trainers”? I mean almost every hsing-i teacher I’ve seen also does some bagwa. Most shuai chiao people do some tai chi. Without cross training styles like choy lee fut,tai shing pek kwar or jow ga wouldn’t exist.

On defeating grapplers or boxers, one really needs to practice against those styles. But it really matters WHO you practice against-for example, learning some grappling techniques and going against another classmate is one thing, going against a bjj black belt is another. Likewise I can feed my partner boxing techniques but someone who say a state boxing champ will be a bit different to train with.

58

Traditional Vs Electic in martial arts

I constantly hear people talking about which is better:
" the traditional man getting good at one style to the point of mastery .
" Or " the evolutionary man who learns whatever he can ,mastering a few techniques from a few styles,to create what works.

Where do you all stand on this ?
Considering that real fighting has no preferences,what do you do to combat and deal with this truth ?

" From one thing know ten thousand"-
Miyamoto Musashi,Book of five rings
"Loy lau hoi sung , lut sau jik chung

Vankuen ,

Actually you can learn whatever martial arts,you like and make it electic.

That’s where your own personal thinking process comes into play.
Example:If an opponent delivers an uppercut to you.
Which type of block in your own martial system can defend against an uppercut and so on.
But to me really, it is the man who makes the art.

The human body can be attacked in many different ways.
So every martial system regardless of system or style has it’s purpose in certain street defense situations.

So if you ended up on the ground in a street defense situation.
You can use grappling skills.

Your attacker grabs you by the wrist or shoulders you can use joint locking or breaking techniques.

Or if your attacker just throws punches and kicks,strikes with finger jabs,palms,or chopping hand techniques.
Then you can use any hand to hand combat techniques.

Now this is just my input to your topic.
I would prefer to learn and go deeper into the chinese martial arts.
Mainly,because it had a huge influence on the martial arts,which evolved from all over the world.
And do your own research on different aspects of martial arts and you’ll find your answer.
To me it all depends on you as the martial arts practitioner.
To overcome the attacker in any real life street defense situations.
So condition and strengthen your mind and body the best way you know how,or find the best teachers.

Every martial arts has their on way of blocking a kick or punch.
And fighting theory or strategy.
The next thing you must do is figure out which techniques you like to use against a kick or punch.
Or strikes like hand strikes to the eyes ,groin area.
Or at any part of the human body.

Take Care,

Fe luk

59

Traditional Vs Electic Martial Arts Systemss

Vankuen,
Excuse me , I forgot to include elbows and knee strikes.
Which is usable for close quarters street defense training against your attacker.

But traditional is the way you’ve been taught by your teacher.
When you were first learning the martial arts.
Electic is basically on your own,your own personal thoughts towards your own fighting system.
But don’t forget though the traditional arts.
If it was’nt for traditional arts,we would’nt know how to go about creating our own unique martial system.
And also the philosophy and the teachings of how the arts regardless of traditonal or electic can benefit us in life.

Take Care,

Fe luk