Please camarades!
Is that a forum on kung fu or political science?
The topic was “Are these guys pulling logs attached to their balls and praying standing on their heads for real?” :rolleyes:
C’est la vie!
USS Enterprise
In a way, Communist ideology exists in the pop culture of US of A. USS Enterprise, IMHO, is a reflection of such a community. Goods and sevices are exchanged freely on board of this marvellous ship. But then again it doesn’t have the main stream support.
Communists in China came to power with a lot of luck and was perceived by the grass root level a lesser evil of the two “at the time”. They got the blessing of mostly unedcated commoners. In reality though, they’ve done more harm than good. How could you ask a government which was composed of uneducated and uncultured officials to respect culture and traditions. It is like playing piano to a bull. This is why they fear any form , civil, martial, or spiritual, of education. If true be told they were and are no difference to scandalous thieves and robbers ( my grandfather termed it that way).
I always stress on a point that the strength of Chinese people is not some foriegn ideology and political might but the cultural integrity and community spirit. Being somewhat of a Taoist, I don’t believe in centralization or one form of ideology is better than another. Good and evil is just two side of the same coin. Leave it be.
As for Shaolin temple and monks today, I tend to agree that they are Cirque du Shaolin.
“Beam me up, Scotty, Kurt out.”
Mantis108
Contraria Sunt Complementa
[This message was edited by mantis108 on 12-29-00 at 06:41 PM.]
boggle
Outside inside crap
Thats what they tell the inquisitive to keep them interrested.
Back to the issue of Shaolin
People still believe in the legend that Shaolin is the mother of all martial arts or had a great role to play in history of Chinese martial arts which is actually not true. It is fact that they did practice and study kung fu it is obvious in all the drawings and writings upon the walls within the temple.
However, In reality most of what we think of in terms of Shaolin is merely a fairy tale.
The truth is that Shaolin was a Zen Buddhist temple and that is pretty much where it ends. We hear of the story where Ta Mo left India and went to Shaolin (The Liang Dynasty,506-56A.D.)and taught the monks Buddhism and realized that they had no exercise for the physical body and taught them a series of exercises and that was the basis for Kung Fu.
China had organized warfare and fighting skills way before the Liang Dynasty, the time Ta Mo is said to have come to the temple.
During other periods in China, long before the Liang Dynasty, such as the Warring States Period, there were hundreds of wars. War tactics were continously being developed and improved. there is alo proof of Chinese Martial Arts existence before Shaolin during the Three Kingdoms Period (A.D.211).
Shaolin was definitely a famous Buddhist temple, if Ta Mo taught exercises there is still not proven or debatable. Before he arrived to Shaolin there were individuals practicing kung fu there already. Many of the monks at the temple were men arriving at the temple seeeking refuge. Many ofthem were criminals. Many of them had some kung fu technique already and Shaolin was a perfect place to work on further developments.
they lived simple lives and had plenty of time to practice their arts and exchange ideas. Because of this, it may have caused the kung fu at Shaolin to improve or become sophisticated but never was it considered to be a place to go and learn Kung Fu like a school.
Someone earlier on the forum stated some reasons why they were going to leave their school, one of the reasons was because the instructor stated that he only taught the staff because it was the only weapon used by the ancestors. there may be truth to this if it is a so-called Shaolin style.
The most famous weapon there was the staff. Any or most Chinese or other styles, one first learns the staff. It is the most fundamental, basic, inexpensive,but yet effective weapon of the time.
In reality, Shaolin was a Zen Buddhist Temple, It was considered a holy place and no weapons were allowed. As with most Churches, Courts, and Hospitals. There are several things that you do not handle or behaviors you do not do. Therefore the staff became an effetive weapon in Kung Fu that was practiced at Shaolin.
It is known that shaolin got its fame during the Tang Dynasty by helping the government put down a rebellion and for their assistance they were honored by the government.
After the Tang dynasty many civil wars, uprisings and rebellions broke out and it is not known whether Shaolin assisted in these are not. However, it was claimed by many people involved in these civil wars and uprisins that they claimed that they were from Shaolin.
During the Ming Dynasty, which is an important period for Chinese Martial Artists, A General by the name of Kwong wrote a book, after extensive research in kung fu, in order to better train his soldiers and there was no mention of Shaolin Kung Fu.
During the Qing/Ching Dynasty, Shaolin was neither popular or was it famous.However, during this period it began to be greatly known because of secret societies that connected themselves with the temple. By doing this, their sense of purpose, to overthrow the Manchus’ was now something holy.
A lot of fiction novels helped to popularize Shaolin as a fighting system. They ahve implicated that there were many Temples. Fukien,GuangDong,Henan,Siquan and other other provines. There is evidence of only one and that is the one that is at Henan.
Sifus’ of those time also carried out the propoganda of Shaolin by claiming to be a disciple there, when they acually were not. Because it was such a legend, they could increase their enrollment and popularize their style. they needed to make a living and didn’t care about misconception. Similiar to what many people do today.
Can anyone relly define what hte Shaolin Kung Fu System is? What most people considers to be Shaoln is the Long Fist System (ChangQuan). Actually there many styles of the Long Fist System, one of these is Jia Men , which is actually from the Chinese Muslims.
“The key is to begin at the beginning;high level short cuts can only lead to dead end.”
“If You can’t be honest nothing can happen.”
Shaolin Temple
That’s strange. Wasn’t there a movie, “Shaolin Temple” filmed at the Shaolin Temple? There have also been numerous documentaries about the martial arts on TLC showing Shaolin monks demonstrating their skills at Shaolin Temple. There is also a real-life and well-documented Shaolin Temple monk that immigrated to the US and is teaching in NY. He and his students demonstrated in that “Blade” movie special a couple of years ago on TV.
tv huh
You believe everything you see on TV?
x
true imaloser,
but I think you are confusing the physical site of Shaolin with the art of Shaolin kungfu. Just because the physical temple structure survives to this day, doesn’t mean that the people that have recently repopulated it are “genuine”. Look up some interviews with Jet Li and the filmakers who filmed “Shaolin Temple” in the 80’s, when they filmed the temple and surrounding area were uninhabited except for a dozen or so caretakers, and had been uninhabited since the '30’s. There was nothing being practiced there, for all intents and purposes the temple was “dead”. As for the people that have moved back in during the '80’s and 90’s, whether or not they preserve the authenticity of their predecessors is up for debate, and will likely never be answered.
“You should never, never doubt what no one is sure about.”
–Willie Wonka
Exacto Mundo!
The media via TV,Film,Comics and other fictions has greatly distorted the truth not only behind Shaolin, but in Chinese Kung Fu in general.
This is why so many people give traditional Chinese Kung Fu a bad rep.
A lot of what most people think is Chinese Kung Fu isn’t. The whole internal and external thing is out of proportion as well, that was started by a Chinese writer long ago, inquiring and writing about Chinese Kung Fu and trying to categorize it.
All styles of Chinese Kung Fu have elements of hard and soft. Their approach to these elements are somewhat different however. Some begin the student out teaching them the hard elements and later in the advanced level, they are taught the soft, depending on the physical requirements of the style. Others teach their students soft elements from the beginning and then as they advnace the harder ones.
The misconception of “southern fists and northern legs” is another misconception. All proproganded by media and the kung fu craze.
For the most part, if things seem to be fascinating and magical, you can bet your dollar that most of the time it isn’t.
“The key is to begin at the beginning;high level short cuts can only lead to dead end.”
“If You can’t be honest nothing can happen.”
how about wu dong?
Did you see it in Crouching Tiger? That place is beautifull. I say it kicks shaolin’s ass hands down.
If your not bleeding, your not having enough fun.
WuShu vs Kung Fu
To put it nicely, IMHO, I think KickMantis’s argument is pretty much a standard “scholar” perspective in keeping with “Party Line”. I appologize to you, KickMantis, in advance. I really could not find any other way to put.
In the year 4001, you will find “records” and “Documented material” from Government archives that Kung Fu never existed. It’s a mythical cult!
It is true that WuShu (martial SKILL) existed in China way before Bordhidharma’s time but it is him who elevated it to a higher plateau - one that is spiritual not just technical. Creative conditioning of the body, mind and spirit through hard work and chaos give you the merits. That’s Kung Fu the core concept. You become a better person not a better killing machine. Shaolin and Bordhidharma are important in Kung Fu because they have inspired many to systematically transmitt their arts. WuShu today has already developed into a martial sport. It’s sole purpose is to please the higher power be it the Government or paying customer, and to satisfy the Alpha Male Complex.
If WuShu perspective is in vogue then by all means follow it. I know my path is Kung Fu and I would take a stance (pun intended) against the WuShu hype even if it means I am going against popular believe.
Namasté
Mantis108
Contraria Sunt Complementa
Proof?
Mantis108,
You said “It is him (Ta Mo) who elevated it (Kung Fu) to a higher plateau, one that is spiritual not just technical.”
There is no proof of this. The only proof is from a legend that says Ta Mo brought Zen Buddhism from India to Shaoilin and that he meditated there for approximately 8-9 years or so and introduced breathing exercises to the monks for their physical health. Nothing about a fighting, martial or war like art. This may well have been adopted in the regime of the kung fu that was practiced at the temple from those that sought refuge there.
There is nothing spiritual about Kung Fu per se. Buddhism and Kung Fu are two very different things
Being spiritual doesnt make your kung fu anymore or less practical than the price of tea in China.
What it may do, if you are serious about your spiritualism or religion is make you a more person of good values and morals. This makes the Kung Fu person a good Kung Fu person. And in ancient times they would use their art for the preservation of life, liberty and the protection of their family,friends and communities instead of robbery and stealing.
Thats what has all these people off the wall these days now.Thinking there is something mystical and mysterious about kung fu. There isn’t. Kung Fu is hard work and when one masters working hard at their kung fu then they become proficient in it. There are no real secrets. no real magic, just magical tricks that attract the naive, unlearned and ignorant.
“The key is to begin at the beginning;high level short cuts can only lead to dead end.”
“If You can’t be honest nothing can happen.”
In God We Trust.
Can’t resist an easy way out… 
In God We Trust - this is printed on the US dollar bills. Do we have to prove that God exists before we acknowlegde the value of this piece of green paper? Not everyone has to be Christian to use it as long as he or she has faith (not the religious faith) in the system. This faith is an edvience of spirtuality, not to confuse with religion believes, that everyone has. A Christian would perhaps appreciate the currency more so than a non Christian because of the spiritual implication, yet a non Christian also enjoys the value just the same. There are evidences of Bodhidharma’s existence such as the cave which he meditated in, 18 Lohan routine, etc… What is the benefit of discarding their existance? I drawn such a parallel in response to the last part of your post.
There are a few things to consider before discarding Bodhidharma’s influence in Kung Fu.
-
Although Bodhidharma is consider the first patriarch of Ch’an (later became Zen Buddhism in Japan) which has it’s root in Mahayana Buddhism. His school was mostly likely to be the Dhyana School which uses meditation as a tool for enlightment. Meditation is beneficial to martial arts.
-
It is highly likely that early forms of Buddhism didn’t shed all of its Hindu roots. So Dhyana might have elements of Yoga, which is another Hindu tradition. Yoga can be a great “cross training”.
-
18 Lohan routine is very reminiscent of Yoga routine.
-
In Okinawan Goju Ryu Karate, a Kung Fu influenced martial art, there is a strengthing exercise that is a variation of the Sun Salution (Yoga routine).
There are many signs as such that we can’t ignore and discard spirituality (for lack of a better word) enhance the experience of Kung Fu practice. The great happiness (Samadhi) - the “Ah, I got it.” - is not an mystical alien feeling to many practitioners. I agreed that is no secrets in Kung Fu just hard work. Bodhidharma is a paradox in which a preacher of peace practiced the art of war. It is this paradox that boarden the horizon for martial arts or military arts practitioner. Otherwise, the demographic would just be composed of soliders alone.
Mantis108
Contraria Sunt Complementa
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As Stated Before…
In my opinion and observations thus far, the only purpose that spirituality has played in the martial arts is by giving its’ practioners a sense of purpose or specfically a “Holy” purpose.
Zen Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism and the like… were all a great influence in the martial artist because of the times. These were the major religions in China at the time. If martial arts was developed or prevalent in the US, Kung Fu might be a little different, with a more western or White Protestant type logic to it. If it was developed among natives, it would have had more of a naturalistic or anismistic type of philosophy.
Meditation is done in many religions in different ways to achieve the same end, As the goal of all religions, spiritualities, philosophies and thoughts. It does not improve the Kung Fu, it improves the individual that practices it. There have been devout excellent martial artists with unending legends of their skills and devout devotion to mankind, just as their are legends of excellent martial artists that have killed, robbed, raped and terrorized people.
“The key is to begin at the beginning;high level short cuts can only lead to dead end.”
“If You can’t be honest nothing can happen.”
Shaolin Temple Article
Anyone read the article in this month’s issue of Inside Kung Fu on the Shaolin Temple?
It’s titled China’s Temple of Doom.
It’s written by Brian Gray all I’m saying is if what he wrote is true the Shaolin Temple is in disarray. Just like anything else when it come’s down to money chance’s are that greed will get the better part of you.
PEACE
RAYNYSC
Well
Though it seems to be messy, my friend (Xu Jian Lou) a chairmen of the association there confirms that the abbott is attempting to remove the marketing calamity and make it more peaceful as in the past.
However, given Yong Xin’s background he may not be the most trustworthy. Being more into business than anything.
He will be travelling to the US this year with the Abbott of the White Horse Temple and my friend may be more will come of it then.
I guess I will find out more during the Shaolin Wushu Festival in September this year. Til then the commentary is neutral on the matter
Regards
Shi Chan Long
Shaolin Temple News
The Abbot and the Shaolin Temple is a very
interesting subject.
The Abbot is the CEO of the Shaolin Temple Inc.
He could do what ever he wants to do.
He does not have to do what you want him to do
or what I want him to do.
He does his thing not our thing.
He definitely has at his disposal 2 million
tourists a year.
That is the question?
Should the Shaolin Temple be religious or
should the Shaolin Temple be Kung Fu.
What is what and which is which is very interesting.
We are observing history in action.
We cannot be participants.
We can only watch as the Shaolin Temple is being transformed into something that the Abbot want’s.
The Shaolin Temple is his not mine not yours.
CJ Max
Shaolin Temple in China?
i am working in Korea now. And i will have a long vacation. I am planning to travel to China. Do you guys know any real shaolin temple in China?
KUNGfu Lover
well uh the real one is at Henan and is the real temple. but if you are referring to the original curriculum and buddhist order with out the modern wushu and the amusement park theatrics, well i cant help ya there,try hiking into the distant mountains and seeing if you can find the secret temple that has remained untouched for a thousand years 
i suggest that you go to the temple in Henen and check it out,wish i could. what i have heard from first hand accounts is that the old shaolin ways are pretty much dead and that now the temple is a big tourist attraction designed to get the american currency flowing through it.
you are from korea? do you take the hwarangdo system? lets chat.
Many repsects, willow sword
Whatever you think i am or want me to be, i am.
oh and,Jesus loves you, everyone else thinks you are an a$.