I stand corrected - thanks LFJ
That was my bad typo. Still getting over a bout of summer flu. 
It should read:
“I’m not sure how many wuseng there are, probably hundreds. That’s an easier class since you don’t have to take as many vows. Most of the monks that we know in the West are wuseng. There are less than 200 wenseng at last count.”
I’m nowhere without proofreaders. 
[QUOTE=LFJ;873752]
but understand its not something you can go and try out and if you dont like it, leave. monasticism doesnt work like that.
peace![/QUOTE]
perhaps I don’t know what monasticism means, and considering the context, I assume you are speaking of only, or mainly chan buddhism. In countries, like Cambodia, Thailand, Laos, it is fairly common for many men to have been monks at one time in their life, usually when they are young, and then to later become a regular joe in the sangha. Part of this stems from socio-economic conditions, mainly poverty and post war conditions from the seventies and eighties. But there are also some who explore it as a matter of choice as a possible avenue in their life, and then later discern that it is not for them.
[QUOTE=unkokusai;873734]Oh, I see. You sure made it sound as if you had been there personally.
…[/QUOTE]
No but my teacher and 8 classmates went. My teacher liven in China for 8 years. I’ve heard in detail what its like there. Not just from him but classmates as well.
[QUOTE=mkriii;874301]No but my teacher and 8 classmates went. My teacher liven in China for 8 years. I’ve heard in detail what its like there. Not just from him but classmates as well.[/QUOTE]
So it wasn’t your intention to make it seem as if you had gone yourself?
[QUOTE=unkokusai;874325]So it wasn’t your intention to make it seem as if you had gone yourself?[/QUOTE]
No, it wasn’t. If I wanted to make people think I went I would not have just posted that I haven’t been there and that it was my teacher and 8 classmates that went. I could have lied and said yes I have been there, now couldn’t have I?
Unk…why is it that you seem to have this hostility towards me? You question every post that I make. Do you have an obsession with me or something?
[QUOTE=brothernumber9;873892]perhaps I don’t know what monasticism means, and considering the context, I assume you are speaking of only, or mainly chan buddhism. In countries, like Cambodia, Thailand, Laos, it is fairly common for many men to have been monks at one time in their life, usually when they are young, and then to later become a regular joe in the sangha. Part of this stems from socio-economic conditions, mainly poverty and post war conditions from the seventies and eighties. But there are also some who explore it as a matter of choice as a possible avenue in their life, and then later discern that it is not for them.[/QUOTE]
when young men go through that phase in theravada countries it is not full ordination. it is only novice ordination.
after their time as a novice they can choose to take full ordination or return to lay life.
what i’m talking about is full ordination. it is not something you can just go and try out for a little while and then leave. in any tradition.
first of all, its many times very difficult to become a monk because the masters have to be clear on your intentions (as do you). because this choice is “leaving home”. you dont get to go back home and see your family and old girlfriends every thanksgiving holiday.
it takes quite some time through novice training and such before you can be considered for full ordination. many times in china you need buddhist university education.
and shaolin is of course much much different than any other buddhist monastery. thats why i’d question the intention of someone who wants to “become a monk” at shaolin temple and nowhere else if gongfu isnt a part of it.
if “leaving home” and committing one’s life to the strict study and practice of the buddha’s teachings in a monastery, there are much more practical and reasonable places to go. you dont even have to go to china for that anymore.
[QUOTE=mkriii;874329]No, it wasn’t. [/QUOTE]
Ok, just checking 'cause the way you described in great detail even what he would be eating everyday made me wonder.
[QUOTE=mkriii;874330]Unk…why is it that you seem to have this hostility towards me? [/QUOTE]
I’m not fond of racists or poseurs.
But anyway, sorry to the others who are trying to have a real discussion.
apology accepted. moving on…
LFJ is right. Vows are meant to be taken seriously and for a lifetime. Full monastic vows are a considerable undertaking.
But back OT, Chan Quan, your question is almost like asking “How do I get married?” before ever kissing a girl. Or a boy. Not sure what sex you are. Not sure that matters anymore in many states. But I digress. Generally, you don’t start with the big full-on vows first. I only took layman vows. I took two sets, one as a Zen practitioner and another as a Shaolin disciple. That’s plenty for me. I have no intention of becoming a monk. There was a time when I considered it, and I’ve actually lived at a couple temples and done some work studies, but I realized that it really wasn’t my path. So take a few steps first, baby steps if you will, before tackling the big ones, just in case it’s not where you want to go. You have to start small anyway.
Find a Buddhist temple. Start a practice there. Get some tutelage.
Being a monk is not what most people think it is.
[QUOTE=GeneChing;874475]LFJ is right. Vows are meant to be taken seriously and for a lifetime. Full monastic vows are a considerable undertaking.
But back OT, Chan Quan, your question is almost like asking “How do I get married?” before ever kissing a girl. Or a boy. Not sure what sex you are. Not sure that matters anymore in many states. But I digress. Generally, you don’t start with the big full-on vows first. I only took layman vows. I took two sets, one as a Zen practitioner and another as a Shaolin disciple. That’s plenty for me. I have no intention of becoming a monk. There was a time when I considered it, and I’ve actually lived at a couple temples and done some work studies, but I realized that it really wasn’t my path. So take a few steps first, baby steps if you will, before tackling the big ones, just in case it’s not where you want to go. You have to start small anyway.
Find a Buddhist temple. Start a practice there. Get some tutelage.
Being a monk is not what most people think it is.[/QUOTE]
At first I wanted to learn more about the ritual and the process.
It is something I have thought about for some time. I will attend some services here in NY; probably at Master Shengyen’s Dharma Drum Mountain and see how the Shaolin Temple Overseas is in Flushing.
I absolutely must take this slowly, if I want to make it a lifelong committment to something greater than myself. All I know is that since I’ve begun searching in this direction, I’ve been a happier, more tolerant, more patient, and much stronger person.
Becoming a full-fledged monk in any Buddhist tradition is an enormous committment. To be honest, I think that denying yourself a family, a wife, and children, robs your life of an essential joy. So I probably could not become a full monk.
I wasn’t aware of the different kinds of vows one can take; I will definitely attend my first service this week. And perhaps, I can have two masters: one, a Buddhist “pastor” if you will, and the other, a martial arts instructor.
Gene, you mentioned that you took two vows. One as a layman, and the other as a Shaolin disciple. Being a Shaolin disciple is different from being a monk? How so and in what ways?
I’m a disciple of Shi Decheng
When you become a disciple, you become a disciple of a specific individual. You can become a disciple of any master in any discipline, not just Shaolin. Kung fu masters often take disciples, but so do masters in tea ceremony, painting, music, what have you. Anyone can become a disciple, just like anyone can get married (except if your gay in some states ;)). Some people disciple under multiple masters, but I’ve always thought that was odd, like polygamy. In a nutshell, it’s a commitment to follow a specific teacher, to treat him or her like your parent. Of course, in Chinese culture, that’s huge. Confucian ethics and filial piety makes massive demands on children in regards to respecting their parents.
There are countless Shaolin disciples. Some of the monks take thousands of disciples. The abbot allegedly has thousands. Others only take a few.
To become a monk, first of all, you’re already a disciple of a monk. Next you must be accepted by the monastic community. It’s more vows, more commitment, much deeper.
it should also be made clear that it is secular discipleship, combining buddhist vows (committing to the buddha) with gongfu/confucian family vows (committing to your master and family).
for the buddhist half of the vows taken it is basically going for refuge in the triple gem (buddha, dharma, sangha) and then taking the five lay buddhist precepts. one still lives at home as a lay follower.
this can be done in any buddhist tradition. it is the basic requirement for becoming “buddhist”. before taking refuge and the five precepts you are not “officially” buddhist. its called “entering the gate”, but it is still not “leaving home” and entering the monastic life.
Once again with the clarifications, LFJ
As for my Shaolin vows, they make it clear that there are wenseng and wuseng discipleships. Mine was wuseng. Decheng is wuseng.
As for my layman vows, LFJ is right again. I took the Bodhisattva precepts, of which there are ten in my tradition.
Becoming a disciple.
Hi Guys! I’m kind of new to this forum and thought I’d break the ice by sharing a story
I spent some time in summer of 2011 in dengfeng at Shi De Yangs school. I went with a group of kung fu brothers and sisters and slept and trained alongside the students there. The few times De Yang actually had time to speak to us in person were very profound moments. One such is this; one of our group asked De Yang “How exactly do we become shaolin disciples?” through his translator Jackie, De Yang Shifu kind of looked at us funny and said that the first day we commited to started our training back home was the day we started as disciples. That everyone who practices shaolin become a part of it and helps spread and keep shaolin alive.
That gave us chills hearing it come from the man himself. (so yea we had a little hero worship)
Funny, we all thought there was some ceremony to it, at least to the point of shaving our heads (hah!) Some of us even were starting to come up with the courage before we left the states to ask to become disciples, not necessarily his (not to sound arrogant), but of shaolin in general. Come to find out all that inner turmoil was pointless, it can be as simple as practicing a ma bu if you have come to the realization in your mind you are becoming an embodiment of shaolin as you train. So we are all already disciples. Cool eh?
Become a part of Shaolin and helping spread it is not the definition of a disciple
lee jiaolian, I’ve merged your post above with this larger thread which discusses discipleship.
[QUOTE=lee jiaolian;1151431]all that inner turmoil was pointless[/QUOTE]
Words to live by.
thanks for the move gene, still kinda new at this and didnt even see this earlier thread.
One of first westerners be made disciple?
Really? There must be thousands of us westerner disciples by now. :rolleyes:
One of first westerners be made disciple
Thursday, September 20, 2012
TOTNES martial arts instructor Matt Bindon has become one of the first westerners to be made an official disciple of the famed Shaolin Temple.
The kung fu expert, who trains in the traditional style founded by the famous Shaolin school in China, recently returned from the temple in the Hubei Province where he trained with masters and monks at the North Shaolin Temple.
During his stay, the Totnes instructor, who has travelled to China on several occasions to perfect his technique in tai chi, chi gong, traditional Shaolin kung fu and sanda or Chinese kickboxing, and attended an official ceremony.
He said: “It was such a privilege and a fantastic experience.”
During his stay, Matt was also interviewed and filmed by Chinese TV who were interested in a foreigner studying the traditional martial art.
Matt, who has been training more than 25 years, teaches real authentic Shaolin kung fu in Devon.
He is one of the first western persons to be sworn in as a 35th Generation Shaolin Warrior Disciple.
As part of the ceremony, he received an official Chinese name given to him by the Shaolin Masters from the Temple.
Known as ‘Shifu Matt’, he trained under Master Shi Yanming Chen and had to start training at 5am for eight to nine hours of intensive training every day.
He said: "Training was very hard and I had to perform in front of other Masters and the Temples Head Abbot.
“I had the chance to train with top Masters in their respective styles which was very special.”
Shaolin Kung Fu is the oldest of martial arts and teaches a complete system of martial technique and ability, while overall improving and maintaining health and well being.
Matt said that although it takes years to master Shaolin martial arts, he teaches all levels from beginners to advanced at the Follaton Community Hall in Totnes.
Matt, who has been training more than 25 years, teaches real authentic Shaolin kung fu in Devon
.
…as opposed to “fake” authentic Shaolin Kung fu! :rolleyes: