There is an order to monastaries
[QUOTE=HmorenoM;1233360]1) Who says how “legit” is a shaolin “school”?[/QUOTE] The Abbot says. Those who have left Shaolin, like my teacher, can still consider themselves as former Shaolin monks or whatev. They can still be legitimate masters, but in terms of Shaolin Temple, the head is the Abbot and he has the power to approve, deny, eject or what is probably the worst, simply ignore.
That is the new reality! Intellectual property has to be reinforced so we will never know the cost of association. “Yo soy el unico” usually means the endorsement is on par with the new unofficial licensing taking place. Even the descriptive Shaolin is now part of the cultural nomenclature!
If one is not endorsed, then patent infringement can be pursued but it is one sided, of course!
[QUOTE=ShaolinDiva;1233094]
The North American Shaolin Federation was formed in 2011 to unify North America Shaolin schools and to promote the camaraderie of Shaolin students, masters and the Shaolin culture as a whole in North America. [/QUOTE]
Again, this kind of things makes me think in “Give me money and i give you a paper which says you’re legit”
Who can say that this one:
http://www.usashaolintemple.org/shiyanming/
“…Shifu founded the USA Shaolin Temple and currently teaches authentic Shaolin martial arts or Chan Buddhism. The USA Shaolin Temple has six satellite branches internationally in Austria, South Africa, Trinidad, Chile, Argentina, and Mexico”
is more legit than this one:
http://shaolin-overseas.org/about_STOH.html
“…is the official subsidiary branch of the legendary Shaolin Temple at Song Mountain in China.”
They both says they teach authentic and legit shaolin culture and all that stuff… And i don’t see anything about North American Shaolin Federation or Shaolin Association of North America…
As i said before, all schools (almost all) claims to be the one and the only?
How can people know if the Abbot really approved “this” school or “that” school? is there a paper? a scroll? an interview? a signature? a logo?
[QUOTE=ShaolinDiva;1233094]
Basically , the Abbot wanted to unify all of the Shaolin schools and traditionalize the forms based according to the books that were donated to the USA library of Congress[/QUOTE]
The Abbot, the major authority in Shaolin Temple wanted that… and… was he successful? (i’m asking for real, i’m nor from Usa nor North America so i don’t know how things are going there)
[QUOTE=ShaolinDiva;1233248]First of all, you don’t know me and what my knowledge of Shaolin , kung fu or martial arts at all except for some of my words that you already misconstrued.[/QUOTE]
I wasn’t talking about you, but Yanxu…
It’s still the Abbot
Take Catholicism for example. The Pope is the head. Now, there can be all sorts of variations of Catholicism that might be valid. You could even claim that something like Santeria was more authentic spiritually. But those have left the fold.
All organized religions tithe. Shaolin is trying to organize, but it has a lot of post CR issues. Ultimately, there should be some international organization, lest we have more situations like Juan Carlos. Organizations set up abroad like SANA and NSAF (assuming they are different and I think they are) are run by locals with the blessing of the Abbot. Here in America, there has yet to be one that has succeeded. Prior to SANA, there was an initial attempt to copyright Shaolin in America in 2007. If you don’t remember how that turned out, well, our forum remembers.
Bad idea…
[QUOTE=GeneChing;1233450]Shaolin is trying to organize, but it has a lot of post CR issues. Ultimately, there should be some international organization, lest we have more situations like Juan Carlos.[/QUOTE]
Juan went to Shaolin and was involved in it well before many foreigners and gave no indication of what was to come years later. Just get a guy like him officially recognized in your international organization, then you can’t just write him off as a fraud that has nothing to do with you when he goes crazy and turns violent! You take responsibility or at least it reflects badly on your organization as a whole.
Terrible idea, trying to bring all these people in around the world. Shaolin should just stick to governing itself back home at the monastery. It’s getting too big for its britches and standardization is disrespectful to its history. You have to throw out a lot of good material to just stick with one way of doing something. Whoever’s idea it is, it shows they either don’t have a good understanding of Shaolin wugong or they just don’t care about it.
Shaolin Europe Association
The association was put together acute (o well, the abbot wishes ..) with anyone, who wanted to be a member, there was not the slightest demand for qualitiy. Asking, why Shaolin doesn’t care at all, what kind of people are members i received the reply, that they first want to set up a frame and later fill it with “quality”. So what you find there now is a very strange mixture of schools who can be called “serious” (but also many “serious” Shaolin-schools in Europe are not at all interested in joining the SEA) and some who are just ridiculous and who got in only by “guanxi” (how immaterial these “guanxi” are, is another question). Fortunately after the Shaolin Europe Festival last year, the relation shiftet a little to the former, but the cheating part doesn’t sleep.
Some leaders of “Shaolin-schools” in Europe, probably in the US as well, just decorate their homepage with pictures of good Shaolin-masters, to create the image, that they are their students, but in reality had maybe on weekend’s workshop or never received any teaching at all from these masters. Some start to teach, while they have only a deploring thin cover of knowledge or ability. In Germany there is a lot of cheating going on . If the Shaolin temple has the wish to create a circle of schools, who because of their quality can be taken as serious representative of Shaolin culture, it will have to change this policy. But apparently it doesn’t. With its strong tendency of “big is beautiful”, it might end up in some empty megalomania …
One of the members of SEA, Shi Yanhai, the nephew of Shi Yongxin, has recently delighted people with this performance (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJZ_J8Sb6o8). The problem was, that he wanted 7600 Euro for it … The rest of his (hi)story is too miserable to tell in public.
On the other end of the scale might be to name Shi Yanliang, who is a decent ordained monk, very sympahtic. He is a favourite of the abbot,- which is also visible in the many articles appearing about him in SS-Shaolin-temple’s webpage. While the Shaolin Temple in Berlin, Germany, except his abbot, Shi Yongchuan, doesn’t have any wuseng or monk known in SS-Shaolin-Temple and cannot hope for one in this kalpa, Shi Yongxin has sent (for a while) several wuseng to support Yanliang with their knoweledge not only in kungfu, but also medicine. Of course this not only out of sympathy, but also for political and tactical reasons. Still as a school for the different aspects of Shaolin-culture as they are taught in the temple, the one of Shi Yanliang might be the best in Europe by now, but this has its price. Social responsibility is maybe not one of the strong points of Shaolin-Temple in general.
There is another point that i consider sometimes problematic: the changes that show up when the monks or wuseng from SS-Shaolin Temple stay in the west for a long time. On one side they like to keep up their “special treatment” as semi-holy, well at least always admired and privileged persons, on the other hand without the “temple-frame” their intensity and the quality of their gongfu is not seldom “fading”, and they are becoming “normal” kungfu-teachers with worldly worries and needs, who want to built a house, drive an “adequate” car, are subject to women’s influence etc.
Maybe concerning all this, it would help, if there was more “part-time”-fluctuation from the SS-Shaolin-temple to the members of the Association, on one hand to support and inspire the masters and the students abroad, on the other hand to really define who is just too far from Shaolin or not enough developed to serve as a master … Of course that can only function on a level of trustworthyness.
Thanks breeze - that was an informative post.
[QUOTE=LFJ;1233637]Juan went to Shaolin and was involved in it well before many foreigners and gave no indication of what was to come years later. Just get a guy like him officially recognized in your international organization, then you can’t just write him off as a fraud that has nothing to do with you when he goes crazy and turns violent! You take responsibility or at least it reflects badly on your organization as a whole.[/QUOTE] There is potential for this in any group, whether formally organized or not. One bad apple can sully any apple basket, no matter if it’s mass factory-farmed or right off your own tree. To be honest, I’m not sure how ‘official’ Juan’s recognition was from the Temple proper. I just posted on that thread that he was actually a Wushuguan student like me.
The homepage of “Shaolin Europe Association”:
Statement to the news of Juan Carlos Aguilar’s crime in Spain
We are very astonished to know the news of Juan Carlos Aguilar’s crime.
Juan Carlos Aguilar has nothing to do with the Songshan Shaolin Temple of China. He has nothing to do with the Shaolin Europe Association too. As we know, he had studied kungfu in 90s of last century at a kungfu training center in China, which has no relation with the Shaolin Temple of China. His teacher or instructors have never been a member of the Sangha of Shaolin Temple of China. Juan Carlos Aguilar has just misused the name of Shaolin.
Compassion is the fundamental principle of Buddhism. Do not kill or cause to kill belongs to one of the basic commitments for every Buddhist. We hope people who love martial arts can take the crime of Juan Carlos Aguilar as a lesson. Whoever wants to learn real Shaolin Kungfu should learn Shaolin culture by a real Shaolin Culture Center with Shaolin monks or masters authorised by the Songshan Shaolin Temple.
Buddha bless the victims.
from: http://shaolin-europe.org/index.html
what a joke …
Shaolin Europe Association & Shaolin Association of North America
I’m not sure, but it looks like Shi Yongxin already defined Shi Yanliang with the Austrian temple/center as future head of Shaolin Europe Association and Yanxu with his school as future head of Shaolin Association of North America.
???
Gene, what do you think?
All things are impermanent
I can’t really speak to what is happening in Europe as I don’t know that many of the monks there. In America, the ‘official’ lead Shaolin Temple representative has shifted over the years. The Abbot is by nature, a diplomatic figure, as he must not only negotiate being the head of Shaolin Temple, but he must do so in the PRC, and we all know the chicom stance on religion. So it is unlikely that he would bestow the official title as overseas leader upon anyone. That’s just not prudent as you never know who might run afoul. What he does do is visit and approve facilities - quite literally give his blessing - but even that can be difficult to sort to some degree.
Shi Guolin was the most official for many years. Note that his position preceded the establishment of the Shaolin Cultural Centers that we have now. He ran into scandal and has since disrobed. Since then, several Shaolin Cultural Centers have been established in the U.S. Shi Yanran runs three, one here in Fremont, another in SF, and the last in Herndon, VA, most strategically located close to Washington DC. He picked up the torch, or perhaps reignited it, for Songshan Shaolin Temple Day. He is still very prominent among the official Shaolin representatives in America right now. However, this year, it is Shi Yanxu who is stepping to the forefront by organizing the 1st American Shaolin Festival. That is very ambitious and we’ll see how it goes. Yanxu was a key player in putting together the Shaolin Summit, but there were other organizers.
So, while Yanliang may be the most prominent in Europe and Yanran and Yanxu are both leaders here in America, that could shift at any moment.
Hello Gene, I am in Europe and here I think there is one major difference from the USA perhaps: some of the more key influential Shaolin monks / disciples / masters are in fact westerners.
Some of the largest and most legitimate Shaolin schools in Europe are headed by western Shaolin masters with decades of competencies and travels to China, so when Yongxin created the Shaolin Europe Association he could not ignore their “standing” and recognized them as leaders in their respective nations, often despite other chinese Shaolin masters teaching there.
For example in the UK Shi Yanzi (chinese) and Shi Yongwu (western) are pretty much equally “famous” and their (S.E.A.) schools as large, in Italy and Switzerland Shi Xingmi (western) is by far the most well known and respected Shaolin master in S.E.A. despite several chinese monks / disciples teaching there, in Greece and Spain the leading S.E.A. cultural centers are headed by two western masters, etc.
Perhaps a unique situation born out of the european “early adoption” of Shaolin which means that today there are westerners who have been studying it since the '80s - '90s and therefore have the knowledge and “clout” to be leaders despite the chinese influx.
Rightly so I think!
Thank you DamoY2K for your estimation,- in some parts i agree, but when it comes to declarations as “most well known and most respected Shaolin master in SEA” .. i think that’s rather slippery territory.
Could you tell some numbers concerning the “largest … Shaolin schools in Europe headed by Westerners”?
Who is Shi Yongwu (i only know Chinese Shaolin monks named Yongwu) ? Since you call him “Shi”: is he an ordained monk or a novice?
That’s interesting that Yongwu is a ‘Yong’ generation
Can you direct me to Yongwu’s official site?
There is one non-Chinese Shaolin representative here in America. That would be Yanfan. Ironically, he is European. His cultural center was blessed by the Abbot, and he was involved in the Summit, but I’m not sure what his involvement is with the upcoming Festival. We’ll find out when it happens.
it’s funny to read that thread because everyone is basically ****ting on the guy.
Sorry Gene, Yanwu not Yongwu … typo!
Breeze, Yanwu now runs probably the co-leading (with Shaolin Temple UK) SEA school in the UK with I think 200+ students as well as regular TV appearances and weekly demonstrations all over the country. Xingmi is definitely the best known Shaolin master in mainland Europe, he speaks at conferences and conducts seminars and demonstrations in several nations as well as directing the main SEA school in southern Europe with 200+ students. The western SEA guys in Greece and Spain easily have the largest Shaolin schools in their respective nations, 100+ students each.
So I think it’s fair to say that in Europe western Shaolin masters have very prominent official SEA standings, unlike the USA where except for Yanfan all the official cultural centers and in general the bigger and more legit Shaolin schools are directed by chinese Shaolin masters.
Like I wrote before, I think it is because some of the european Shaolin disciples have been practicing for 20 - 30 years and 10 - 20 trips to China … they obviously could not be “ignored” by Yongxin and in fact I think it’s great that Shaolin has shown them the deserved respect and “face”, Shaolin is a culture not a nationality. 
By the way, as a personal experience, over the years I’ve done seminars with most Shaolin masters in Europe, chinese and european, and two of the western ones are IMO outstanding teachers as well as some of the best traditional Shaolin practitioners I’ve seen, Xingmi in southern Europe and Deyan in the UK, as well as all around nice guys!
Sorry Gene, Yanwu not Yongwu … typo!
Breeze, Yanwu now runs probably the co-leading (with Shaolin Temple UK) SEA school in the UK with I think 200+ students as well as regular TV appearances and weekly demonstrations all over the country. Xingmi is definitely the best known Shaolin master in mainland Europe, he speaks at conferences and conducts seminars and demonstrations in several nations as well as directing the main SEA school in southern Europe with 200+ students. The western SEA guys in Greece and Spain easily have the largest Shaolin schools in their respective nations, 100+ students each.
So I think it’s fair to say that in Europe western Shaolin masters have very prominent official SEA standings, unlike the USA where except for Yanfan all the official cultural centers and in general the bigger and more legit Shaolin schools are directed by chinese Shaolin masters.
Like I wrote before, I think it is because some of the european Shaolin disciples have been practicing for 20 - 30 years and 10 - 20 trips to China … they obviously could not be “ignored” by Yongxin and in fact I think it’s great that Shaolin has shown them the deserved respect and “face”, Shaolin is a culture not a nationality.
By the way, as a personal experience, over the years I’ve done seminars with most Shaolin masters in Europe, chinese and european, and two of the western ones are IMO outstanding teachers as well as some of the best traditional Shaolin practitioners I’ve seen, Xingmi in southern Europe and Deyan in the UK, as well as all around nice guys!
Sorry Gene, Yanwu not Yongwu … typo!
Breeze, Yanwu now runs probably the co-leading (with Shaolin Temple UK) SEA school in the UK with I think 200+ students as well as regular TV appearances and weekly demonstrations all over the country. Xingmi is definitely the best known Shaolin master in mainland Europe, he conducts seminars and demonstrations in several nations as well as directing the main SEA school in southern Europe with 200+ students. The western SEA guys in Greece and Spain easily have the largest Shaolin schools in their respective nations, 100+ students each.
So I think it’s fair to say that in Europe western Shaolin masters have very prominent official SEA standings, unlike the USA where except for Yanfan all the official cultural centers and in general the bigger and more legit Shaolin schools are directed by chinese Shaolin masters.
Like I wrote before, I think it is because some of the european Shaolin disciples have been practicing for 20 - 30 years and 10 - 20 trips to China … they obviously could not be “ignored” by Yongxin and in fact I think it’s great that Shaolin has shown them the deserved respect and “face”: Shaolin is a culture not a nationality.
By the way, as a personal experience, over the years I’ve done seminars with most Shaolin masters in Europe, chinese and european, and two of the western ones are IMO outstanding teachers as well as some of the best traditional Shaolin practitioners I’ve seen, Xingmi in southern Europe and Deyan in the UK, as well as all around nice guys!
[QUOTE=GeneChing;1236341]Can you direct me to Yongwu’s official site?
There is one non-Chinese Shaolin representative here in America. That would be Yanfan. Ironically, he is European. His cultural center was blessed by the Abbot, and he was involved in the Summit, but I’m not sure what his involvement is with the upcoming Festival. We’ll find out when it happens.[/QUOTE]
How about LFJ being a non-Chinese Shaolin-representative in America?
It seems that many if not most of the western “Xing”- and “Yong”-masters are students of Shi Deyang.
Hey now…
I’m a Xing and not a pupil of Deyang. Then again, I’m no master.