I am learning the san sik from Yuen Kay San Wing Chun Kuen right now. I was wondering if there was a formal way to practice them. My teacher just teaches me the technique and applications. I was wondering if there was an opening and a closing form, as well as a number of repetitions that is common to all practicioners.
You must mean SumNung Wing Chun, YKS didn’t do the 12 SanSik, he was a purest it would seem. The 12 SanSik come from Cheung Bo, a cook and who only knew those 12 SanSik wing Chun moves.
What the ? You don’t know where the San sik comes from at all. Truth my butt!
Sum Nung created 12 san sik from the san sik that Cheung Bo taught him.
Cheung Bo probably had more than 12.
Yuen Kay San also learnt San sik from Fung Siu-ching!
Sheesh! Where did you learn about YKS wing chun, bonetone?
It means a collection of techniques, ideas or drills.
There’s no set number of times or whatever because it’s not particularly formal.
taichi4eva,
Why did you ask about the Sun Hei Gwai Yuen Faat in that other thread if you already learning YKS WC?
I just started…I just wanted to know
The 12 San Sik of Sumnung Wing Chun aren’t anything that YKS taught. Please provide proof that the 12 SanSik of Sumnung WC are something that YKS did and taught. Sure there is a lot of breakdowns of the forms and individual techniques but to have a specific number of them is a limitation. I still say YKS has nothing to do with the SumNung 12 SanSik, and to refer to them as YKS is disrespectful of YKS.
Pfft.
Read what I wrote: YKS learnt san sik from Fung Siu Ching.
Sum Num learnt san sik from Cheung Bo. I never said they were the same.
YOU claimed that Cheung Bo taught only 12 due to him not learning the full WC system. That’s incorrect. He learnt it how it was taught.
He had more than 12 techniques and the type of WC he learnt was taught in san sik form - just like Fung Siu Ching taught his WC to YKS.
AND YKS did pass these Fung Siu Ching san sik techniques on to Sum Nung. Sum Nung also taught Fung Siu Ching techniques to his students although they were not formally part of the 12 that he called Sup Yee (12) Sik. A lot of the Kum Na that Sum Nung taught was from san sik that YKS learnt from Fung Siu Ching.
to have a specific number of them is a limitation
And you’re saying I’m disrespectful. You think techniques that Sum Nung made into the 12 San Sik are a limitation?
There’s other Cheung Bo techniques placed within the dummy form.
Where did you learn YKS WC?
Apologies to taichi4eva for sidetracking the thread but this sort of misinformed “opinion piece” has to be corrected for factual accuracy.
You’re partially right, though appearing to come off a bit dissrespectful your self through some of the accusations.
Sum Nung had two teachers, the first being Cheung Bo and the second being Yuen Kay San. It is still not entirely clear what Cheung Bo’s san sik were based off of (early research suggested them a descendant of Gulou/Koo lo, but more recent research suggests a more direct fukien white crane weng chun derivitive).
Yuen Kay San told him to combine his knowlege of Cheung Bo’s system with what he was teaching him in order to preserve and respect. And you would be incorrect - the 12 san sik are a combination of the san sik Sum Nung learned from Cheung Bo and Yuen Kay San. So the fact that Sum Nung taught the organized 12 san sik was actually being respectfull of YKS’s wishes.
Secondly, there’s no such thing as a “purist”. Every sifu puts their own stamp on things and continues to evolve their system. Even Yuen Kay San.
This is what Sum Nung sigung told me personally:
Cheung Bo only had San Sik, numerous San Sik. Yuen Kay-San had San Sik and Kuen To (Siu Lien Tao, Chum Kiu, etc.)
When Sum Nung began teaching, he had a number of students who needed to learn to fight quickly, so Sum Nung organized San Sik from both Cheung Bo and Yuen Kay-San into the Sup Yee Sik. Some were from Cheung Bo, some from Yuen Kay-San, some were common to both, though each had their own way of doing it.
Yuen Kay-San himself integrated Fung Siu-Ching’s close range San Sik into the longer bridge system he learned from Fok Bo-Chuen. It sounds like Yuen sijo was interested primarily in results, and was open minded enough to seek out teachers who could fill what he felt were gaps in his skills. Sigung kept improving his system right into his latter days. He was an applicant in the truest sense of the word.
As to the original question, you can open the San Sik the same way you open the Kuen To. The set number of reps is ‘as many as you can with improving quality to each’. If you start to get sloppy, stop or switch and come back when you are mentally focused again. (Bad reps can be worse than no reps).
Rene/Montreal (Sum Nung > Ngo Lui-Kay > Me)
Rene
What about Cheung Bo s San Sik coming from White Crane is this true ? Is there any comparison that we can tell between Cheung Bo s San Sik and Fukien White Crane ?
Cheung Bo learned from Wai Yuk-Sang, who learned from a student of Fung Siu-Ching named Ngau Si. You can find them in the Wing Chun Archive’s Biographies Section
There are some things to suggest that the Weng Chun Kuen descended from Fujian Weng Chun White Crane, which was originally more San Sik in nature.
san sik
When you say san sik is that the same as san sao?or is there a difference?
San Sik = “Free Forms”
San Sao = “Free Hands”
San Da = “Free Hitting”
San Sao is often used interchangeably with both San Sik and San Da, but for that very reason, isn’t as clear when out of context.
San Sik are like very short forms. They can be so short as to be just one technique (e.g. Tan Da could be a San Sik), or a combination of a few movements like a section from Siu Lien Tao or the Muk Yan Jong.
San Sik systems don’t have the longer routines (Kuen To) like Siu Lien Tao, but instead have a set, just as formalized and progressive, of much, much shorter San Sik
My sino-vietnamese is not good enough to read this. I got this off a Hong Kong forum. The thread is about the san sik.
…
- --------------->2.
3.------------------------->
5.-------------------------->6.
7.----------------------->8.
9.()------------------------->10.()
11.------------------------>12.
()()…d().,…12…
()…
Can anyone translate this? From what I can read, there are only three techniques that are common to the YKS wing chun listed here- the sun shaped fist, side body punch, and triangle palms. All the other techniques are different- huen sau, lop sau, etc.
I’m sorry for all the smilies…I swear I did not do that 
Unfortunately the smilies do get in the way - probably some kind of unicode problem.
Rough translation, done v. fast:
[In] 12 “free hands” (san shou) … there is definitely not a single set called “White Crane seizes the Fox”. According to categorisation:
[list=1]
Something about the inner and outer hands having the same action, but with inner and outer gate difference, so some sifu would ,
take the single dragon punch and put it at number 12.
What you say could be xxxxx … possibly just a different term.
The ones that were obliterated…I went back to the page…in sino vietnamese it’s pronounced “lap” meaning to stand. I think in cantonese the whole term is “lap sau”
How can the tan sau be used on the inside and outside? How about the sickle hand and lap sau?
Intro and San Sik Query
Didn’t know if this is the best plae to start but thought I’d jump in anyway.
I am a disabled man Spina Bifida (L4L5 for the technically minded).
Briefly, I am a man on crutches who, looking for an effective fighting style,
chose wing chun for its excellence but also I liked the square facing (I have no balance side-on) the ambidexterity and the fact that my legs kinda naturally fall into the YCKYM stance ( I call it the you can kiss your mother to remember it) when I stand without my crutches
I think I believe in the WSL which I experienced in Sydney, Australia.
The help I need is as follows:-
- Can I generate the right kind of power if
a) my hip tortion is not great though I can kind of shunt it forward with the strike a little BECAUSE - I can not step, not once, not even a little bit. On the upside I think that my “over-rootedness” helps ( I have learned to balance very well in the forty years+ I’ve used crutches).
- One last “advantage” I perceive is my inability to initate attack. Instead I am counting on my adversary doing the closing/bridge building for both of us but this raises the problem of acquiring the centreline on the opponent while not being able to turn as fast as they may.
I used to attend classes but my needs don’t fit well into a group situation
and in any casev i cannot adopt the whole system, so I would say I try to cultivate as many WC attributes as I can based on the SLT ( even my chi sao experience is limited
Thank you for any assistance you feel able to offer.
One final query: would the San Sik of any WC/VT lineage be useful to me?
Cheers
Stycx
The sickle hand is another name of the Dap/Joining hand. Tan can be done inside or outside, a pointed roof sheds rain both ways.
Many of those are similar to Sum Nung’s SYS, others not.
Stycx, what you need is a very, very good teacher who can tailor the material to suit your individual specialized needs, and work with you in whatever manner you need to achieve those skills.
Martial arts and teacher are separate abilities and need to be developed specifically. What any individual technique may or may not suit you will only be determined by how good a teacher you find (assuming you work as hard as it sounds like you will 
What I am wondering is the delivery of the Tan Sau different if it’s inside or outside? Basically, the arm is out and the palm is slightly curved out. So would it look different?
I have read your book, Mr. Ritchie, and I think it’s great. A student of Tom Wong is training me, and there are slight differences between what I am being taught and what is displayed in your book. I thought perhaps you could explain the solo practice of inside join/ outside join with more details. For me, the pictures and the description are hard to follow. Also, my teacher does not use any stance changes.
Perceptive question. I’d say yes, it looks different. With the tan sau on the outside the need to turn the palm out is less.