i am being serious. you just have problem taking criticism about cantonese kung fu.
one moment you make kung fu seem useless, you dont even train or teach forms. the next moment you get sensitive about the most shady region in china. i reallly dont get it.
i am not derailing this thread. this thread is about the rooftop matches in hongkong. i am trying to explain the mentality behind the people that filmed those slap fights. that it lies deep in the cantonese psyche.
Do you guys really think people buy all of this?
[QUOTE=TenTigers;1129134]dunno…some people think true2form is Kung-Fu.[/QUOTE]
clearly it is not…
…STEP!
[QUOTE=TenTigers;1129134]dunno…some people think true2form is Kung-Fu.[/QUOTE]
You sure can fool your opponent big time. When you post a Taiji “white crane flip wings”, the moment that your opponent started to laught at you, the moment that you move in and knock your opponent down with one punch. It’s a good strategy even Bruce Lee used it in “Return The Dragon” movie (at 1.14).
[QUOTE=TenTigers;1129134]dunno…some people think true2form is Kung-Fu.[/QUOTE]
ok so where are the good fight clips that show true TCMA in action?
[QUOTE=lkfmdc;1129135]read or re-read my two posts, and if we get a good discussion going I’ll continue my point[/QUOTE]
please continue it,
american kung fu denies responsibility by saying “everyone else is like this”
this is guangdong, the ass end middle of nowhere in china. they have a monopoly on american kung fu. it is not representative of chinese martial arts.
those hongkong rooftop guys means nothing, their action changs nothing.
It is hard to define what happened to CMA fighting prowess in first decades of 20s century; it is it possible that Jingwus view point of wushu as a recreational activity affected the pugilistic scope of wushu?
It seems that Goushu tried to rectified this problem by focusing on reaction skills, e.g., boxing, shuaijiao, tuishou, etc.; however, it seemed it was a bit to late to undo the damage.
[QUOTE=Mulong;1129189]It is hard to define what happened to CMA fighting prowess in first decades of 20s century; it is it possible that Jingwus view point of wushu as a recreational activity affected the pugilistic scope of wushu?
It seems that Goushu tried to rectified this problem by focusing on recreational skills, e.g., boxing, shuaijiao, tuishou, etc.; however, it seemed it was a bit to late to undo the damage. [/QUOTE]
the biggest damage were the movies. they plant powerful false images inside peoples minds
Indeed bawang, but that came later down the road…
[QUOTE=lkfmdc;1129115]Now history is context and context is everything
The “white crane vs wu tai chi” debacle was in 1953 and the roof top matches early 60’s (?)
But let’s remember that 1937 to 1949 wasn’t exactly a prime time for the development of kung fu
I don’t believe there are movies of the 1920’s and 1930’s lei tai events, but my educated guess would be if you saw them they would look better than the 1953 fight. Maybe not astounding, but certainly better
But you might also notice that the winners of these things all did ALIVE training. Shuai Jiao certainly trains alive and many of the participants had also studied western boxing
John Wang shares a story regarding these that is on point; the winner of one of these was criticized for not using “real kung fu technique” (sound familiar) by a “master” of an “internal art” (funny how consistent some of this stuff is!)
The winner’s brother said to the critic, why don’t we fight? And the critic declined
From Kennedy’s books and the translation of “Chin Na Fa” we also see that there was a long tradition where those who embraced theory but didn’t do actual fighting criticized the methods of those who fought. And, conversely, a strong tradition among the actual fighters that there was too much theory without practice
In some respects, examples from Kennedy’s manuals read almost like the forum postings of today[/QUOTE]
Great points Dave!
Wasn’t the White Crane-vs-Taiji suppose to be a demo match? I wonder if they really understood what they were getting into and if they really trained for it?
[QUOTE=bawang;1129180]
this is guangdong, the ass end middle of nowhere in china. they have a monopoly on american kung fu. it is not representative of chinese martial arts.
those hongkong rooftop guys means nothing, their action changs nothing.[/QUOTE]
What styles predominantly originate from Guangdong?
[QUOTE=mooyingmantis;1129196]
Wasn’t the White Crane-vs-Taiji suppose to be a demo match? I wonder if they really understood what they were getting into and if they really trained for it?[/QUOTE]
There was very real BAD BLOOD there.
The Wu (Ng) family have very low opinion of “external” and of southern styles and Ng Kung Yi had apparently challenged and beaten some other teachers and put up something in the newspapers
The match was originally supposed to be another of those closed door things (and we would have never have seen it of course) but over time it first became public, then some one suggested it might as well benefit charity (in a sort of blatant attempt to white wash all the issues)
They both walked into that ring fully expecting to put on an astounding performance and beat without question their opponents. Both were not happy with the results
There were attempts to re-paint this over the years, I had heard how great it was until we got a VHS copy back in the 90’s. Now with the internet you can’t hide the reality of what it was
[QUOTE=lkfmdc;1129203]There was very real BAD BLOOD there.
The Wu (Ng) family have very low opinion of “external” and of southern styles and Ng Kung Yi had apparently challenged and beaten some other teachers and put up something in the newspapers
The match was originally supposed to be another of those closed door things (and we would have never have seen it of course) but over time it first became public, then some one suggested it might as well benefit charity (in a sort of blatant attempt to white wash all the issues)
They both walked into that ring fully expecting to put on an astounding performance and beat without question their opponents. Both were not happy with the results
There were attempts to re-paint this over the years, I had heard how great it was until we got a VHS copy back in the 90’s. Now with the internet you can’t hide the reality of what it was[/QUOTE]
Dave,
Thank you for the background information! It is very interesting and adds a different dimension to the video.
The biggest problem was that in the past 100 years, no TCMA stylists fought - now they do, and guess what’s happening? They’re getting better… and, they’re starting to learn how to use some of those silly techniques that you can find in forms. We’re still in the beginning of this h2h resurgence, that’s why you find such a limited kick-boxing repertoire of methods being used. As time goes on, the techniques will start to become more varied… and where will said techniques come from? The vast encyclopedic repositories known as forms.
[QUOTE=MightyB;1129205]The biggest problem was that in the past 100 years, no TCMA stylists fought - now they do, and guess what’s happening? They’re getting better… and, they’re starting to learn how to use some of those silly techniques that you can find in forms. We’re still in the beginning of this h2h resurgence, that’s why you find such a limited kick-boxing repertoire of methods being used. As time goes on, the techniques will start to become more varied… and where will said techniques come from? The vast encyclopedic repositories known as forms.[/QUOTE]
Good point! Like they used to say about Ragu spaghetti sauce, “It’s in there!” Perhaps we just didn’t emphasize it enough. :o
I know I was guilty of it in the past. Due to my background in jujutsu and aikido, I was never very interested in the throwing techniques found in the Praying Mantis forms. Discussions on this forum caused me to look deeper into them and see their richness. 
[QUOTE=MightyB;1129205]
The biggest problem was that in the past 100 years, no TCMA stylists fought -
[/QUOTE]
MODIFY THAT
The need for effective hand to hand and close quarters fighting was very real well into the 1920’s in China.
There were obviously guys who were using their kung fu in “the street” (well, in 1917 China, was it really a street LOL)
Beginning in the 20th Century, you had cross training in boxing and Japanese Judo going on. You had alive training and sparring being introduced
WHAT WE SEE IS THAT EVEN AMONG THOSE WHO WERE FIGHTING, FROM THE 20’s and 30’S LEI TAI FIGHTS, THE BETTER FIGHTERS WERE THOSE WHO TRAINED ALIVE
1937 to 1949 was a disaster for CMA. And in HK in the 1950’s we see schools where there was no sparring, and in some cases arts being now passed on by those who had never actually fought.
Here we see the beginning of the idea that you can fight just by learning the system
[QUOTE=mooyingmantis;1129198]What styles predominantly originate from Guangdong?[/QUOTE]
Most of everything people think of as “southern” comes from either Guangdong or neighboring Fujian. Choi Li Fut, Hung Gar, Wing Chun, Fut Gar, Chow Gar, Anythingelse-Gar. The Hakka stuff will likely be found more in Fujian and the straight “Han” stuff more in Guangdong. Styles like White Crane, Southern Mantis or anything else where they stand around hunched over like old men…er..I mean like Kyokshin guys doing Sanchin. 
[QUOTE=lkfmdc;1129209]MODIFY THAT
The need for effective hand to hand and close quarters fighting was very real well into the 1920’s in China.
There were obviously guys who were using their kung fu in “the street” (well, in 1917 China, was it really a street LOL)
Beginning in the 20th Century, you had cross training in boxing and Japanese Judo going on. You had alive training and sparring being introduced
WHAT WE SEE IS THAT EVEN AMONG THOSE WHO WERE FIGHTING, FROM THE 20’s and 30’S LEI TAI FIGHTS, THE BETTER FIGHTERS WERE THOSE WHO TRAINED ALIVE
1937 to 1949 was a disaster for CMA. And in HK in the 1950’s we see schools where there was no sparring, and in some cases arts being now passed on by those who had never actually fought.
Here we see the beginning of the idea that you can fight just by learning the system[/QUOTE]
Aren’t you forgetting that China was and IS a huge country, and we can’t forget countries such as Taiwan, Singapure, Malaysia, etc. with large Chinese populations that contain many genuine kung fu sifus/masters who continue on many of the Mainland Chinese lineages.
Perhaps you are generalizing a “little”?