Questions

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
1

I am doing some reserach right now and have a few questions. I would like your opinions and all opinions are welcome. Thank you in advance.

  1. What is the wing chun paradigm (belief) of fighting? How do you think this paradigm was historically created in context of its chinese physical culture and actual environment in past and today? I have read and heard the myth of wing chun origin, but if anyone can offer a more realistic and rational theory to explain wing chun’s model, I would really apprenicate it.

  2. What is the wing chun strategy (the general goal or plan) in fighting?

  3. What tactics (what method) are used in wing chun to accomplish their strategy?

  4. What are the techniques use to accomplish both the strategy and tactics?

Once again, thank you for your opinions and insights.

2

My answers:

  1. If I understand this question correctly regarding paradigm or belief, the idea behind its creation as far as I understand it was to develop effective fighting skills in someone (soldier perhaps?) in a short period of time. It is my belief that more than one person created the Wing Chun concept and principals, instead of just by the nun as some believe. Although, my experience tells me that generally women pick it up faster than men, due to their use of finesse rather than a man’s reliance on physical strength and toughness. I also believe that each passing generation of practitioners and instructors since its creation has added on to the art/science to make it better. Less and less of this is happening today as more are taking from the art rather than researching and making it better IMO, but there are a few out there doing that today, thank God…

  2. The Strategy is to finish off the opponent in the shortest amount of time with whatever tactic/technique/concept/principal/natural reaction required during that moment in time. To me, if using the delivery system that WC can provide in a fight, I am not concerned with how well I used the system/how perfectly I executed the concept in a physical way but rather that I get out of the situation uninjured, while defeated my opponent at the same time. It’s either him or me, so I don’t really care how I do it, as long as it gets done! WC helps get it done faster and hopefully with more chance of success for myself.

  3. Simple, Direct and Efficient movement combined with a constant forward pressure directed towards your opponent and his vital areas. Relentless attacks, designed with an ingrained defensive structure, while in a close range, relying on contact reflexes to guide you if/when obstacles are encountered, developed through specific chi sau drills and concept.

  4. IMO you cannot be too specific about what techniques are going to be used. A good WC man will have available to them a variety of “Sharpened” tools, to which they can adapt to whatever the situation requires to get the job done. A combination of strong, fast, sensitive hands backed up by proper footwork, and a good idea of how distance, timing and perception play in the game of fighting will go a long way for someone looking to escape and overcome in a fighting situation IMO.

Being physically fit (Fight fit that is), helps too…

Just my 2 loonies worth…

James

3

James,

Thank you for your comments. I really apprenicated it. Just to clear up my first question. What I meant to communicate was what is the main philosophical combative model of a wing chun teacher/student? For example, “All fights end up on the ground” is a belief. Based on your given answer and comments, can you explain how that particular model/belief was created in the context of its physical culture and environment?

4

  1. What James said is on the mark, I’d say, although some seem to want to say that, rather than being a simple system that can make a proficient fighter of anyone in a short time, that you have to spend decades paying fees to the master who was the only one who got the real stuff before you get it. I agree that it’s an evolving art that’s meant to be continually renovated, just like every other field of human knowledge, though there are those who say that it was devised perfect on a Chines battlefield centuries ago and any attempt to change it is foolish and futile … and that only their lineage has the pure stuff. Other beliefs include the assertion that the most effective range of combat is, in effect, “trapping range”.

  2. The general strategy IMO is to bridge the gap to gain contact, control the opponent once contact is made, and then beat the crap out of him ASAP.

  3. The tactics are described in the kuen kuit.

  4. The techniques are enumerated in the forms.

5

Anerlich,

Thanks for your comments. I will go back and reexamine the Kuen kuit again. I almost forgot about them until you reminded me. By the way, how accurate do you think these sayings are? Can you direct me any online resources on the kuen kuit please?

6

Kuen Kuit

Bao,

Here are a few that come from The Wing Chun Archive

  • Retain what comes in, send off what retreats. Rush in on loss of hand contact.

  • Do not be lax when your opponent is not advancing.

  • Once your opponent moves, his center of gravity changes.

  • Make the first move to have control. Attack according to timing.

  • Timing is achieved through practice.

  • A strong attitude and posture gives an advantage over your opponent.

  • Being alert and adapting to the situation allows maximum results for minimum effort.

  • The body follows the movement of the hands. The waist and the stance move together.

  • Complement the hands with posture to make good use of the centerline.

  • The eyes and the mind travel together, paying attention to leading edge of attack.

  • Charge into the opponent. Execute three moves together.

  • Strike any presented posture if it is there. Otherwise strike where you see motion. Beware of sneak attacks, leakage attacks and invisible centerline attacks.

  • Soft and relaxed strength will put your opponent in jeopardy.

  • Coordinate the hands and feet. Movement is together.

  • Do not take risks and you will always connect to the target

7

FooFighter,

  1. What is the wing chun paradigm (belief) of fighting? How do you think this paradigm was historically created in context of its chinese physical culture and actual environment in past and today? I have read and heard the myth of wing chun origin, but if anyone can offer a more realistic and rational theory to explain wing chun’s model, I would really apprenicate it. The origin is a story, seemingly meant to be symbolic not to be taken literally. There are those who are focusing much effort on trying to establish the origin. It would be interesting to know, of course, but logically its questionable on whether this may not truly affect us. True Ving Tsun training helps us to learn how to learn. People worry and argue about lineage but essentially a good Ving Tsun person can maintain the personal relationship to their Sifu and lineage, but be able to understand the interpretation of what other lineages/Sifus/Martial Arts have to offer you. Obviously, in a class room students will interpret different things from their teacher. This is normal human development. This is why those who learned from Yip Man may not share all the same ideas. I think this would be true of people who learned from any grand master.

  2. What is the wing chun strategy (the general goal or plan) in fighting? To get information from your opponent, so that you can make an intelligent reaction to a situation. Ving Tsun training focuses on using less to do more. Unlike other styles that try to hit a moving target without any tactile information, Ving Tsun says there are two things that can happen when I try to attack you: 1) I hit you in the centerline and there was nothing to interfere with it. Then I did not need any tactile information; or 2) My technique is interferred or intercepted, but my training has taught me to respond to that interference which likely has taken me off the centerline. Since my job is to control the centerline, my Ving Tsun training shows me how to recover and get back to the centerline to replace with a follow up technique.

  3. What tactics (what method) are used in wing chun to accomplish their strategy? I do not know about any “tactics” as one should train so that the actions are instinctive. By using the word “tactic”, controlling the Centerline would best be suited for this. Keep something in the center at all times.

  4. What are the techniques use to accomplish both the strategy and tactics? When we learn Ving Tsun, we learn a handful of techniques, the most elementary are Bong Sau, Tan Sau, and Fook sau. The idea of this system is to learn how use those techniques so that, at a mastery level, ANY technique (not just those learned in the Ving Tsun formal training) could be understood and used. This is why Ving Tsun may not cover everything, but everything can be covered by Ving Tsun. For example, I read an article a few years back where someone said Ving Tsun should have the Tonfa as a weapon in the system. The author thought the Tonfa was a weapon with a lot of usefulness. However, I believe the system has no use for more things! We already have the bot cham do, which is a short range weapon. When one studies the Bot Cham do, they are not just learning the knives but about using a short range weapon. Thus, the ideas of the Bot Cham do can be used for the Tonfa, with the individual choosing to learn the particulars of how to handle the Tonfa.

Does Ving Tsun need to be renovated or does using the system as a base mean the individual’s use of the Kung Fu need to evolve? We don’t need to add new letters to the alphabet even though we develop new words over time…

8

1. What is the wing chun paradigm (belief) of fighting?
The more you try to do wing chun, the less you grasp of it.

2. What is the wing chun strategy (the general goal or plan) in fighting?
No strategy is brought into fighting. In a fight your wing chun is there for you in your structure and movements without you thinking about these things (if you have trained enough).

3. What tactics (what method) are used in wing chun to accomplish their strategy?
Complimentary movement, borrowing energy from partner, move first - arrive last, come keep - go throw, maintain the midline…

4. What are the techniques use to accomplish both the strategy and tactics?
Relaxed movement and structure without thought on these very things. Approach the fight without “knowing” but with awareness. Don’t do wing chun - be wing chun.

9

Here are my answers to the questions I have asked you. Very few of you wrote back and those who answered thank you. This is my thesis of the wing chun system which has come from my experience and reserach. I am no expert and please take what I have written here with a grain of salt. If there are any mistakes, then it is due to my own ignorance. If there is any merit than all of it goes to my wing chun sifu.

Applied Wing Chun System

Doctrine: (Wing Chun belief system) 4 POINTS

  1. Wing Chun value application first in combat. WC’s fitness Value Hierarchy is in this specific order:

Function
Mobility
Attributes
Health
Physique

Wing chun values application, which is why it is on top. Function or performance is more important than mobility, attributes, health, and lastly physique. This is why bodybuilding and power lifting training hold no value for a wing chun fighter. Their value system is contrary to WC’s value hierarchy. Most great wing chun sifus I have researched have very poor healthy habits and their physiques were just average. However their application and movements were exceptional despite their bad habits. All systems have a different set of values and it is important to know if your personal needs and goals match with the values of your fighting system. Most wing chun students never really look deep enough to understand their own value system or the value structure of their style.

  1. Wing chun as a system believes superior techniques and mental toughness can overcome someone of superior conditioning.

  2. Fighting will be symmetrical.

Stories of wing chun mythic characters snake vs. crane, Wing Chun vs. male bully and the past WC fighters have based their experiences on successful symmetrical engagements.

  1. Control your center and destroy your opponent’s centerline.

In close quarter combat, it is best to control your time, range, and distance by simultaneously defending and attacking the centerline of our opponent than passively defending his attacks. It is inferior to allow the opponent to control the centerline and allow his movements to control space, time, and distance. It is even less effective to be in a position where we can both exchange strikes. So it is ideal to be in a position where you can control his centerline and hit him without him being able to hit you.

Strategy: (The Big Plan)

A wing chun fighter seeks to enter quickly and without (exchange) in his opponent’s open and central areas. Once inside that position, he will deliver continuous, direct, and simple to complex attacks until his opponent is unable to fight or intelligently defend himself. A Wing chun fighter seeks to overwhelm his opponent with multiple attacks and control his space while leaving no room or opportunity for an exchange.

Tactics: (Small ideas/ways to reach the Big Plan)

Simultaneously offense and defense, coverage (not blocking), Gate theory, Triangle footwork, Economy of Motion, Centerline theory, Triangle theory, etc.

Techniques: (the means to the end)

Tan Da
Pak Da
Lap Da
Bong gerk arrow punch
etc

My biggest mistake is fighting over technical differences. Most misunderstandings are based on people who have different wing chun belief systems, strategies, and tactics. Some are confused about the difference between strategy and tactics or the relationship with their wing chun technique to their strategy and tactics. In my opinion, we can have more fruitful discussions if we can understand each other’s model instead of judging our techniques alone.

Doctrine:
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French & Latin; Anglo-French, from Latin doctrina, from doctor
1 archaic : TEACHING, INSTRUCTION
2 a : something that is taught b : a principle or position or the body of principles in a branch of knowledge or system of belief : DOGMA c : a principle of law established through past decisions d : a statement of fundamental government policy especially in international relations e : a military principle or set of strategies.

Strategy:
Etymology: Greek stratEgia generalship, from stratEgos
1 a (1) : the science and art of employing the political, economic, psychological, and military forces of a nation or group of nations to afford the maximum support to adopted policies in peace or war (2) : the science and art of military command exercised to meet the enemy in combat under advantageous conditions b : a variety of or instance of the use of strategy 2 a : a careful plan or method : a clever stratagem b : the art of devising or employing plans or stratagems toward a goal

Stratagem:
Etymology: Italian stratagemma, from Latin strategema, from Greek stratEgEma, from stratEgein to be a general, maneuver, from stratEgos general, from stratos camp, army (akin to Latin stratus, past participle, spread out) + agein to lead .
1 a : an artifice or trick in war for deceiving and outwitting the enemy b : a cleverly contrived trick or scheme for gaining an end
2 : skill in ruses or trickery

Tactic:
Function: noun
Etymology: New Latin tactica, from Greek taktikE, from feminine of taktikos
1 : a device for accomplishing an end
2 : a method of employing forces in combat.

Techniques:
Etymology: French, from technique technical, from Greek technikos
1 : the manner in which technical details are treated (as by a writer) or basic physical movements are used (as by a dancer); also : ability to treat such details or use such movements
2 a : a body of technical methods (as in a craft or in scientific research) b : a method of accomplishing a desired aim.

(Doctrine >>> Strategy>>> Tactic>>> Techniques)= a martial art style.

In understadning martial arts techniques you have to know it functions, however knowing it alone without understanding its tactics is quite useless in real live combat. If you only have tactics, but don’t have a strategy than you won’t know how to end an engagement or begin one. If you want to learn how to start and end your battles, than you have to examine what you think is the truth about fighting(doctrine).

Anyone who has been taught by Duncan Leung and Allan Lee will understand what I have wrote here. These aren’t mine personal beliefs and I didn’t make up these beliefs up. I learned them through their experiences and teachings. Anyone who has used their wing chun or recalled how Sibak Duncan Leung defeated his opponents can see the truth in the strategy that I have outlined. Any student of applied wing chun can see how the tactics I have outlined plays a vital role in our strategy. There is definitely a connection between the two. Read them carefully…Tactics do not create a plan. Tatics are formulated by a strategy. A strategy comes from a belief system.

Lastly the WC techniqes which sounds familiar are drastically different in “applied wing chun” than other wing chun techniques. This is because of applied wing chun’s tactics, strategy, and doctrine. I am not claiming apply wing chun is better or worst than other WC schools, but I have always wondered why it is so different from what I have seen in other schools??? I have seen many visitors from others WC schools who are amazed at the difference of Sifu Lee’s wing chun compared to their own. I know many of my wing chun kung fu brothers have wondered why our wing chun is so different from the rest in our area.. Some will get it and some won’t. My senior told me that everyone has a different approach and it is not anyone’s job to police anyone or speak negatively on anyone’s practice, but what is important is to just focus on our pratice. Why the differences? In my opinion, by examining everyone’s doctrine, strategy, tatics, and techniques as whole and not just their techniques, we can understand the difference without being disrepectful to anyone.

I think I have given a reductionist model of “applied wing chun” in a nutshell. Take again what I’ve written with a grain of salt, please, and in no way I am an expert. However if you never experience “applied wing chun” from one of its experts than much of what I written will be meaningless and useless to you and I think it is unfair to judge my thesis without first knowing where I am coming from and my intention. I have not come here to teach, but to learn from all those who are more experienced than me; not to argue with anyone.

What I have presented is what I perceived to be the essence of what I learned from wing chun. I asked these questions to see if others had the same ideas as me or knew how to communicate what they have experienced. None of these ideas are mine but has come from Duncan Leung Sibak and Allan Lee Sifu. All I have done is organized it a such a way so I can understand it as a whole.

Thank you for reading this…

10

[QUOTE=Meklorien;693481]1. What is the wing chun paradigm (belief) of fighting?
The more you try to do wing chun, the less you grasp of it.

2. What is the wing chun strategy (the general goal or plan) in fighting?
No strategy is brought into fighting. In a fight your wing chun is there for you in your structure and movements without you thinking about these things (if you have trained enough).

3. What tactics (what method) are used in wing chun to accomplish their strategy?
Complimentary movement, borrowing energy from partner, move first - arrive last, come keep - go throw, maintain the midline…

4. What are the techniques use to accomplish both the strategy and tactics?
Relaxed movement and structure without thought on these very things. Approach the fight without “knowing” but with awareness. Don’t do wing chun - be wing chun.[/QUOTE]

WTF???

  1. If this is your opinion, mine is that you are being duped.:frowning:

  2. No strategy in fighting??? If that’s the case your toast…:o

  3. Barring your slang, I’ll buy this…:rolleyes:

  4. these are more tactics, not techniques.:wink:

11

  1. The WC paradigm - To employ the tactics and techniques of the system in an immediate and efficient manner, fighting in the trapping/chi sau range while protecting oneself (basically w/o getting hit, we all know this is an ideal and not nessasarily always possible…but it is part of the paradigm).

  2. The strategy of WC will vary sleightly from person to person, but in general, it’s to ‘draw’ the opponenet into or close the gap into trapping range, strike the opponent at the same time as suppressing their ability to strike you, and finish them off quickly and efficiently.

  3. As anerlich said, the tactics are pretty well defined in the Kuen Kuit, and…

  4. The techniques are pretty much displayed by the forms (although some techs may be sleightly different in application than form).

12

[QUOTE=AmanuJRY;699882]WTF???

  1. If this is your opinion, mine is that you are being duped.:frowning: [/QUOTE]

I’m not repeating someone else’s dogma. The concept expressed is my own. And I understand if you cannot grasp it readily. The “mushin” of wing chun is not a simple thing to readily understand at first, though it is not of itself inherently difficult.

[QUOTE=AmanuJRY;699882]2. No strategy in fighting??? If that’s the case your toast…:o[/QUOTE]

It is probable that we are talking about different things here. For clarification, I am discussing going into a fight with preconceived notions of what is going to happen and a plan to exploit same in your favor. In my experience, this rarely succeeds.

[QUOTE=AmanuJRY;699882]3. Barring your slang, I’ll buy this…:rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

Slang? These are maxims of wing chun that I have learned from day 1, from accomplished practitioners. Perhaps you were previously unaware of them?

[QUOTE=AmanuJRY;699882]4. these are more tactics, not techniques.;)[/QUOTE]

Form and structure could possibly be called tactics, and just as easily techniques. Really, calling them either is a mistake.

I feel the important thing to understand is that they are only what they are; cumulative results of diligent training and meditation on the principles of gung fu. Really, even that is an over consideration. In any case, I believe it is a mistake to overly focus on them and therefore isolate them out of the “whole”.

I often experience beginning students discussing wing chun “techniques” as if these things are information they have accrued. An example would be considering intercepting a straight punch with a bong sao. Or pak’ing the elbow while straight punching in return.

While I agree that these techniques work when applied well, to consider them no more than techniques is to miss out on some of the finer aspects of gung fu development.

I’m not saying this holds true in all cases, but I have seen many practioners plateau at this somewhat intermediate developmental stage and become mired there by ego.

I agree with your following post. It just bothers me to see wing chun generalized into stagnate concepts of technique and strategy when there is so much more to the art form.

13

[QUOTE=Meklorien;693481]3. What tactics (what method) are used in wing chun to accomplish their strategy?… move first - arrive last …[/QUOTE]Eh? What? No! Move last, arrive first - “hou faat sin tze”.

14

[QUOTE=Meklorien;699938]I’m not repeating someone else’s dogma. The concept expressed is my own. And I understand if you cannot grasp it readily. The “mushin” of wing chun is not a simple thing to readily understand at first, though it is not of itself inherently difficult.[/QUOTE]

There is a time for mushin, and in descibing things on the internet is not one of them.:wink:

Regardless of your thought process during combat (or otherwise) WC does have a particular paradigm or belief (p.o.v.) and you do as well, even though your hiding it behind zen.:smiley:

Sometimes people want clear answers. My statement was my own thoughts and not the regurgetated dogma of those I learned from.

It is probable that we are talking about different things here. For clarification, I am discussing going into a fight with preconceived notions of what is going to happen and a plan to exploit same in your favor. In my experience, this rarely succeeds.

A.K.A. Mushin, right?

That is a good thing, but strategy doesn’t always mean the plan you have in your head (as a matter of fact, in the military that’s called a plan or operation), strategy is the concept of how you’re going to react, where will you step to offline, when is a good time to punch, kick, elbow, etc. and these things are worked out during your regular practice so that during a fight it’s there for you and you can clear your mind of such things (but it’s still there).

Slang? These are maxims of wing chun that I have learned from day 1, from accomplished practitioners. Perhaps you were previously unaware of them?

On the contrary, I’m quite familiar with them. You stated them in a manner different to the majority of ways I have heard them stated (mostly the come, keep - go, throw, statement), hence, ‘slang’.

Form and structure could possibly be called tactics, and just as easily techniques. Really, calling them either is a mistake.

I feel the important thing to understand is that they are only what they are; cumulative results of diligent training and meditation on the principles of gung fu. Really, even that is an over consideration. In any case, I believe it is a mistake to overly focus on them and therefore isolate them out of the “whole”.

I often experience beginning students discussing wing chun “techniques” as if these things are information they have accrued. An example would be considering intercepting a straight punch with a bong sao. Or pak’ing the elbow while straight punching in return.

While I agree that these techniques work when applied well, to consider them no more than techniques is to miss out on some of the finer aspects of gung fu development.[/QUOTE]

Tactics vs. Techniques

A lot of people have trouble understanding the differences with these two, but they are different.

Tactics are the means to achieving your goal (more like your strategy). Strategy is the concept, tactics are the means, techniques are the tools. For example, a military operation (plan) is enacted, using their strategy the troops tactics that support their strategy and have techniques to achieve their tactical goals.

It’s a heirarchy.

I agree with your following post. It just bothers me to see wing chun generalized into stagnate concepts of technique and strategy when there is so much more to the art form.

Unfortunatly, those things can’t be shared on the internet. Know your venue.

15

Utter drivel.

16

[QUOTE=FooFighter;688259]I am doing some reserach right now and have a few questions. I would like your opinions and all opinions are welcome. Thank you in advance.

  1. What is the wing chun paradigm (belief) of fighting? How do you think this paradigm was historically created in context of its chinese physical culture and actual environment in past and today? I have read and heard the myth of wing chun origin, but if anyone can offer a more realistic and rational theory to explain wing chun’s model, I would really apprenicate it.

  2. What is the wing chun strategy (the general goal or plan) in fighting?

  3. What tactics (what method) are used in wing chun to accomplish their strategy?

  4. What are the techniques use to accomplish both the strategy and tactics?

Once again, thank you for your opinions and insights.[/QUOTE]

Meklorian has really covered much of your questions. WC is easily misunderstood because of it’s utter simplicity and directness. People often over complicate the techniques and theories.

  1. Simplicity
    Directness
    Economoy of movement
    Minimal use of brute force
    and Practicality
    are all the basic concepts of WC.
    Foreward force.
    and Simultaneous defense and attack are cruitial to overcoming an attacker quickly.

  2. I agree with the “no stratagy” ideal stated earlier. do not anticipate the engagement (bruce lee). You train to adapt and flow with the opponent, not play their game.
    We do not try to bridge the gap or bait an opponent to come into a closer range. They do this themselves by simply attacking and therefore commiting their mass and weight by their very movement while striking, kicking, or trying to grapple.
    Keeping YOUR centerline covered and in control, is one of the main keys to defending oneself in WC. Attacking down your own centerline as well gives speed, power, and ultimate directness to striking.

  3. Again tacticks used are centerline, relaxation, flow, adaptation, speed, and the five concepts expressed earlier. Foreward pressure/force is extrememly important! Foreward force allows you to overcome a stronger opponent and take their space away for retaliation.

  4. Specific techniques use to acomplish these things are understanding, and mastering of simple basics. WC doesn’t just keep adding more and more technique so much as perfecting the few basics. Tan Sau, pak sau, chit sau, dai sai, bong sau, gong sau, and jum sau for hand techniques. These are all used simultaneously with striking, kicking, and they flow one into the other. Constantly relaxed, and moving with the opponent.
    The legs or kicking techniques cover the leg attacks of the opponent. If they kick, you check or kick while moving foreward punching and such.

Chi Sau, and leg sensitivity drilling helps to train muscle memory in the practitioner so they can react without thought or intention.

17

[QUOTE=Meklorien;700136]Utter drivel.[/QUOTE]

[SIZE=“7”]W[/SIZE]

[SIZE=“1”]as in…whatever![/SIZE]