"So your saying all the mantis techniques are jut sow? So take away jut sow and you have no mantis? "
let’s say you are studying 8-Step PM.
Does that mean that every technique has to have 8-steps? Does every technique have to contain the characteristic footwork?
Do you get the point I’m making?
Olethros: No, I don’t get it.
See my statement to spiralstair above.
WLPM “is what it is.”
I agree with Hua Lin. If people don’t like it they can train elsewhere.
However, I am getting a mixed message. Lineage and knowing where one comes from is important in chinese culture. Thus we have the lineage of Chan Pui - Chan wan Ching - LKS etc.
Does this importance stop at who was taught by who or is it important to know where these techniques come from.
I have found that as I investigate Tam Tui, Praying Mantis (still haven’t found pure Jut Sow though) I appreciate the WL forms more.
Of course we are just supposed to do what the teacher tells us. However a mind that is inquisitive is not bad.
If no one even Chan Pui doesn’t know which techniques are which, fine, just say: “I don’t know.” And then point the student in the direction of where they could find the answer. OR go seek out the answer yourself to tell the student.
That being the case, I’m still interested in knowing about 2nd & 4th form and straight form for that matter. Which techniques are mantis, Tams or mok gar.
Did LKS teach praying mantis and Tam Tui as a complete system?
18 Elders: interesting question. i suppose that he would have taught the basics of each system first. To CWChing. Maybe CWChing combined what he thought were the most effective techniques into forms 1-6?
WL people
and i guess that is everyone at some point in time- are you all insane?
woliveri
if you can recognize tam tui then recognize it - whats left is praying mantis! (jut sow) yeah, yeah, mok gar, family style, the southern techs are few and easily recognized.
in WL literature it was written that the style utilizes the strong leg techniques of tam tui- high and low, and that the close range tactics are mantis, seems easy enough to define.
1st form mantis- tong long deil sow, grag punch, turn look at moon/spear hand, side kick, di ma chang choy, step away elbow, the two punches in cat stance, the chin na move in hill climb stance before the kneeling punch…
you guys must learn too fast, maybe you should stay home awhile or train at your schools after hours and maybe you could answer such a simple question- except for hua lin lao shi who appears to have already done so.
and praying mantis itself is a shaolin hybrid
flem, how are the two punches in cat stance jut sow? I’m not understanding how do you know these are jut sow techniques? So your saying anything that is not tam tui is jut sow? hmmmm… So why don’t we call it Wah Lum Jut Sow Tam Tui Northern Praying Mantis?
So why don’t we call it Wah Lum Jut Sow Tam Tui Northern Praying Mantis?
Because the sign out front would be incredibly long … 
flem,
I guess we are all insane. Seriously tho, when I said (in another thread) that jut sow is a big part of WLPM, woliveri immediately came back and said, really? I studied there and saw no jut sow techniques at all (or something to that effect). Which confused the hell out of me, being a newer student, because here I was reading it right in the literature, I have si hings telling me we’re learning jut sow, demonstrating it, etc. And here comes a guy who studied at WL for some time who challenges that notion. I figured, if he’s got more KF experience than me, maybe he knows something. So I went and looked it up. And Hua Lin confirmed it for me.
Anyway, woliveri, if you want to learn about jut sow, ask specifically about a jut sow technique. At this point all you’ve done is insinuated that Wah Lum is lying to its students. Hua Lin and others have pointed out what jut sow is to you, but you are still beating this dead horse of a question into the ground.
Jut sow is defined loosely as wrestling hands. Wrestling hands is a big part of praying mantis. OK?
Now let’s talk about jut sow APPLICATIONS on this thread and not ask pointless questions about what you did or didn’t learn at Wah Lum.
Sam
woliveri
the rib punch is a classic praying mantis technique, i have seen, on several occassions photos of master, no, Professor Law demonstrating the same technique, who was a well known mantis instuctor in the 60’s i believe(1960)- since WL utilizes jut sow, it is safe to say…
why not reverse the name? i can give you my reasons, but they may not coincide with the original intent- 1st, the style is predominately tam tui, 2nd it came first to lee kwan shan- who must have felt it needed to be that way- out of respect, who knows, maybe it sounds better— i personally like kick boxing better than box kicking! and third, perhaps at that time and maybe even today, the tam tui may be superior or maybe he thought so.
i think WL has worked itself into a corner because for years it has promoted the aestetic aspects and has become world famous for it’s forms. it is a double edged sword really, it’s huge, but the majority of the practitioners care little for the practical side- most people were affraid(so to speak) of the “best” people in the style when i was in it, but only a handful were anything but show
i personally think it has it all, and that it makes more sense than straight PM BECAUSE of its emphasis on tam tui. in the fights that i have been involved in and witnessed, long range techs dominated(used most), while close range was used effectively, but only after closing in- WL trains the body as a fight happens-except most practioners i know have never been hit
samantis and other WLers,
o.k. samantis, lets talk about the move near the end of 16 hands- right before the double chops- long punchs in hill climb stance. i have read that it is called “two swallows fly through the forest”
{a mantis tech woliveri (same source)}
any way, it said it was used against (3) attackers, i can understand (2), can anyone figure a third- perhaps the butt attack from another post?!
General comment to all:
I try my best to answer most of the questions directed towards Wah Lum both technical and historical. I’m not opposed to discussing techniques here but I am NOT going to TEACH Wah Lum in a public forum. If woliveri, 18 Elders or anyone else wants an explanation of the forms they learned while with Wah Lum or more insight into what we do and how we train then they should come back and continue with their training. Wah Lum instruction is for Wah Lum students only! My previous posts were intended to dispel the notion that we don’t know what we’re doing, can’t fight, don’t know apps etc. and I believe I said enough to prove we are legitimate.
There are Tam Tui sets and Tong Long sets on the higher levels that I haven’t learned or seen yet. I don’t know for a fact but I’m guessing they are pure forms. Everything at the lower levels are mixed. 2nd and 4th Forms are Tam Tui forms with some Jut Sow Mantis hand techniques added. Forms 1 to 6 are Wah Lum forms meaning a Tam Tui/Jut Sow mix. Wah Lum is not a school that teaches the Tam Tui Style and the Jut Sow Style, it is a style that is comprised of Tam Tui and Jut Sow techniques. Maybe that will put it in perspective for some of you.
Now. how many of you want to list the forms in your style with complete explanations of the techniques and history of the lineage?
flem
That’s Soy Long Pow Choy. I don’t see 3 attackers at all but let me kick it around awhile. The obvious is cross block/side wave punch to the temple. Do you recall where you read that?
Since it is a roundhouse kind of punch could you be striking one opponent along the way to the other? Swing wide hit hit.
“and praying mantis itself is a shaolin hybrid”
Good point. So is there really a difference between a hybrid 300 years old and a hybrid of a 300 year old hybrid and another style? Does it matter?
So I guess for those people who claim that their style of PM is the original…which of your techniques are made up and which are Shaolin?
Whatever HL, if you want to evade the question that’s ok. You statement above sounds like an official temple statement. All I asked was to define the characteristics of a jut sow technique.
flem,
going through the form beside my desk right now … my coworkers are giving me funny looks!
With the pow choy (double punches), I can only figure 2 attackers max, but if you do the move right before that (punch high, scoop, downward strike) followed by pow choy, you could be neutralizing an attacker facing you, then cross block, turn into pow choy to strike a 2nd attacker with the right fist and blocking the 3rd attacker with left arm.
Or even with 1 opponent, scoop/downward strike to trap and control the leg following their kick (from front or side), pow choy delivers a strike to the temple.
That’s my impression … I need to practice it with a partner though.
Sam
Hey guys, I don’t think you should bother responding to woliveri anymore. He’s been baiting for a while… In fact, I’m surprised it’s held up this long - no one has resorted to calling him a motherless son of a chihuahua, heh. I mean, come on, look at this stuff:
“Ok, here’s a hint… assinine response. No hard feelings”
“SaMantis, I don’t have a definition of jut sow. That’s why I’m asking. I’ve never had anyone from the temple discuss the issue. If it’s being discussed now that’s great but it Never was discussed when I was there… ever. When I was at the temple apparrently it was different than it is now and that’s great if it’s true. I hope you’re learning these things as I did not.”
“Whatever HL, if you want to evade the question that’s ok. You statement above sounds like an official temple statement.”
“So your saying anything that is not tam tui is jut sow? hmmmm… So why don’t we call it Wah Lum Jut Sow Tam Tui Northern Praying Mantis?”
Yeah, I know, it looks like I’m just copying/pasting all his posts, hehe. Anyway, he obviously has something against Wah Lum, and is just waiting for someone to get ****ed off and try to rip him a new one.
woliveri, if you want to know the what/where/why/how/etc. of jut sow in Wah Lum Tam Tui PM, why don’ t you try going to a kwoon (if there is one nearby) and asking the people there? It is one thing to compare/contrast/discuss techniques and martial philosophy on a message board, it is quite another to actually try to learn them and be able to discern them in forms (which must be watched and performed with “intent” to truly be understood).
As was said before, the original style of Praying Mantis was in and of itself a “hybrid” art. Personally, I think if you were really trying to study or understand Wah Lum Tam Tui, you would actually do it, as opposed to sit on the sidelines and make assumptions. And, by the way, the reason it isn’t called “Wah Lum Jut Sow Tam Tui” is the same reason why Tong Long isn’t called “Cheng Tai Tzu Men Tong Bei Lam Sao Duen Ngo Mi Pak Yuen Tong Bei Gow San Mui Fah Goy Sao Tong Ban Pak Ying Jow Yin Chi Fam Chi Tam Tui Lin Choy Lo Han Tong Long Quan.” Now, add all the changes from the different substyles of Praying Mantis (e.g. Eight Step and Bagua, TaiChi/YinYang and Taijiquan-which was added after the substyle was already called TaiChiPM, etc.).
And woliveri - feel free to get all offended and write an angry reply calling me all sorts of fun names. I don’t really care about your opinion of me anyhow. There are some knowledgeable people on these boards who were nice enough to attempt to explain their understanding of things to you, but it is more than obvious that you aren’t really interested. Frankly, you should stop wasting their time.
woliveri
I sorry that’s not what you want to hear but that’s how I feel about the subject. That’s not from the Temple, it’s from me. I don’t see anyone else here being asked to explain their system. If you didn’t learn this stuff while at Wah Lum then I’m sorry but I’m not going to teach it all to you now.
The characteristics of Jut Sow are the same as with other styles of Northern Mantis. I’m sure you don’t like that answer either. You are apparently looking for something that isn’t there. What differentiates Jut Sow from other mantis styles I can’t say. I don’t know enough about other mantis styles. Maybe the Pong Lai group can answer that since they have some background in Wah Lum as well as Plum Flower, 7 Star and whatever. As far as I know there is no super secret dim mak Jut Sow techniques. It’s just basic Northern Mantis. Wah Lum uses techniques from the Tam Tui style and the Jut Sow style. It combines the two to make a third.
And you didn’t ask anyone “to define the characteristics of a jut sow technique”, you stated you didn’t see any and wanted to know where they were and if anyone was learning them. The answer is “in the forms” and “yes we are learning them”.
SaMantis
Glad to see you thinking and working it out. Backing up 2 or 3 move takes you out of Soy Long Pow Choy so it wouldn’t fit the description of one move against 3 attackers. I would say take it from the cross block to the punch.
That’s ok HL no problem. It is a little irritating when asking a serious question about WL and then have to wade through 30 posts of “why are you attacking WL” statements. As an old student with experience with WL I was hoping for a civil answer to my question to understand what jut sow was and what parts were in the system. I honestly have no idea and frankly I’ve had enough of this conversation to really care less at this point.
As you know I don’t currently practice WL nor do I plan to in the future. My path is different now.
Peace
hua lin laoshi
you must have a different technique in mind, the “two swallows…” technique follows the punch at sky, then down into say ping ma- cross fists- open out, it is like a big backfist in hill climb. i could only find one source though i have seen several it is in the back of bruce lee the tao of gung fu. there are several styles represented there, the mantis photos all resemble or even mimic those in WL. two swallows fly through the forest" is pictured, but though the application is shown, its app against a third opponent is unclear.
by the way, when tong long created PM, do you think other monks said," why do you call it praying mantis, the footwork is monkey, that punch is roll in punch at ear- hey, tong long, except for the way you hold your hands that’s shaolin, why don’t you call it shaolin PM-- or hey, why call it PM at all!
samantis, other WLers
i just read this third page, apparrently we are on the same tech, but my understanding is that the right arm is straight- either way if you see the photo in the book pow choy will work the same- and hua lin laoshi is correct- the technique by itself takes out three by itself- w/out the previous or follow up technique. perhaps the 3rd (unseen in photo) is the cross fist, i don’t know.
by the way, i appreciated your at work story, it reminded me of a student of mine several years ago who would get “caught” in the bank(her work), practicing!
woliveri
didn’t i explain enough mantis in 1st form? perhaps i don’t understand what you’re after. it’s either that or you’re on the loaded question route. in any case, i don’t know what you learned, but the mantis is visible to me. i think you said earlier that you now only do internal, from my humble understanding of tai chi you’re REALLY on a difficult road now
flem, yeah thanks. This may sound stupid but I really didn’t equate mantis techniques with jut sow even though jut sow is the style of mantis we’ve learned according to the manuals. In my mind I had an idea of “wrestling hands” as Sensitivity training and fighting as in a southern art. My thoughts were that there should be in close one on one training to edify these techniques.
Apparently either I’m wrong or no one else really knows.
Thanks
woliveri: Yes, you’re right, you’re wrong.Now time to get back on your “different path” with , unfortunately, the same person going down it.