Shaolin Tai Chi
That looks like Xu Dezhen performing, but I can’t quite tell because the resolution is too low. We just worked with Xu for the Qigong Symposium and Training Workshop. I think he holds a higher degree from some Sports University. While he dons robes and has a Shaolin name (see The Gold Mountain Monks: 38 Shaolin Immigrants to the San Francisco Bay Area By Chen Xinghua and Gigi Oh in our 2007 November/December issue), I suspect much of his training came from the U, not Shaolin.
[QUOTE=sha0lin1;892604]LFJ,
Sometime back you and I had a discusion about Shaolin Tai Chi. I found the form on you tube and this was the form I was taught albeit with a few variations. Check it out, is this what you were talking about?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_70tWRPbvQ[/QUOTE]
i saw that video quite a while back. its not the shaolin mianquan i was talking about.
that looks like an interestingly stylized version of chen style taijiquan. there are many abbreviated forms combining the core of laojia yilu and erlu. most of the chen masters have their own. but still very distinctly chen style. thats what this looks like.
shaolin mianquan is different though. it doesnt begin with the familiar chen style opening up to the “single whip” posture, as this video does.
really it shares a lot with taizu changquan, which chen style taijiquan does also, but its visibly different from chen style.
i did link to a couple videos of it, didnt i?
Dropping in on a old thread 
Is there any reason for Zhanghu Yinximen, (wich I like alot since I have seen the video of Liu Baoshan doing it) that he starts by going to the right instead of all the other sets from Songshan who go to the left , ( Except Taizu I believe )
I have noticed the guy who comments this video, is the same person as the video of mysterius Old Monk who did Da Tong Bi Quan.
[QUOTE=Eugene;993606]
I have noticed the guy who comments this video, is the same person as the video of mysterius Old Monk who did Da Tong Bi Quan.[/QUOTE]
its a video series on the 10 famous songshan shaolin boxing sets.
Thanks LFJ,
I watched them with great pleasure today !
is the following information correct, I can then use it.
Currently, there are a multitude of Shaolin Masters throughout the world as the Shaolin Temple gains the popularity and following of its historical past once again. In Henan Province, Ten Traditional Shaolin Boxing Masters have gained recognition and been commemorated: Cui Xiqi, Chen Chengwen, Chen Wujing, Fu Zhigan, Liu Baoshan, Liang Yiquan, Liu Zhenhai, Wang Changqing, Lian Heguan and Chen Jun.
The first name is of the Mysterius Tong Bi Master, ( Cui Xiqi )
through you idea of more videos, I found the name.
Btw this is a little weird, http://images.google.nl/images?sourceid=navclient&hl=nl&rlz=1T4ACAW_nl___NL345&q=cui%20xiqi&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi
Are the first two guys the same, I have never seen Liang Yiquan with a beard.
The first pictures according to the words is Liang Yiquan and the second is Cui Xiqi ?
I dont know if this is the same guy from You Tubes Cui Xiqi, but he also has a beard.
Much greetings Eugene
if you actually follow the link to the page hosting the picture, you’ll find that caption is for another picture of liang yiquan, while that picture is actually titled “cui xiqi”.
Never got a chance to comment the first time this thread went up;
Chang Hu Xin Yi Men has two major translations, I am still not sure which is the most correct.
Defend the Heart and open the mind (hu-xin yi-men) long boxing. Means to stop from becoming emotionally involved in the combat and to keep the mind open and flexible so that answers can present themselves.
The long defensive boxing of the xin-yi school (xin-yi-men Chang-Hu-quan).
This form is certainly partenered with Qi XIng Quan, they share several short sequences, and both make use of the same hand position, which is not found so much in other forms.
Can’t say much about the history, only that Tagou does these two forms very well, and only really does these two forms well.
There are several variations on chang hu, the main one (tagous) has 3 sections. I have seen a version with 5 sections and many versions with 1 or 2 sections. There are 2 major stylistic variations. One which uses hammers to strike with and the other that uses fists. This small variation makes for some quite different stances throughout the form. (tagous uses fists).
The hand used in Qixing is fantastic. It has many applications. When the thumb tries to move towards the little finger the palm closes up and forms an incredibly hard surface, feel it yourself. The fingers thus splayed can be used to grasp soemones hand without closing the fingers and committing yourself to a grab. The hand can also be use as a hook. It can also be used to protect the throat (palm towards throat, as in mural). It can be used to catch hits directly, like a baseball glove. It can be used to strike the opponant like tui zhang, it can also be used like a hammer, it can also be used by striking with the fingers directly. Doing so you musn’t tense the fingers too much. Because the force is spread over a large area you needn’t strengthen the fingers, it fits directly to the shape of someones face with the palm striking the chin.
On the history I can’t help… Some people have told me its a dengfeng form not a shaolin form…
like most other styles of Songshan Shaolin kung fu, as already said in this thread and other threads, a short form with cool movements is coupled with a longer form which consists of 3 roads (better be called 3 sections) with many repetitions, where the repetitions convey the core concepts and indicate the core maneuvers. this is the case with Qi Xing and Chang Hu Xin yi Men quan. as other forum users said in other threads, the shorter forms in such couplings usually have their origins in Deng Feng area, while the longer (3-road) forms come from Shaolin. i don’t know, if this holds in case of Qi Xing & Chang Hu Xin yi Men quans as well?
besides the video clips spread over the internet, there are some authoritative resources which i list those of them we have access to so far:
1. Shi Yong Zhi’s instructional video (road 1 of 3)
2. Wang Zongren’s instructional video (roads 1-2 of 3)
3. Shi De Ci’s instructional video (he calls it Hu Xin quan) (all 3 roads)
4. Liu Haike’s (from Tagou school) instructional video (all 3 roads)
5. Shi Deqi’s instructional video (all 3 roads)
6. Abbot Yongxin’s Chang Hu Xin Yi Men Quan Pu (all 3 roads)
7. Deqian’s Encyclopedia of Shaolin Martial Arts, vol.2/4, page 488 (all 3 roads)
discussion of the resources:
Yong Zhi’s video is only the 1st section/road, and Zongren’s the first 2 sections/roads of the 3. they are OK and have no problem.
Deci and Liu demonstrate the whole 3-road form. they are identical and have exactly the same technical content (but of course with difference in their body mechanics); but they–Deci at 3:10 and Liu at 0:59–miss a repetition of a short 2~3 postures sequence in the middle of the 2nd road (Liu Haike teaches the form in 6 sections, the first 2 sections of 6 are exactly the first 1 road of 3, the next 2 sections together with 2 postures of the 5th section constitute the 2nd road till the point demonstrated by Zongren, except Zongren doesn’t miss those few postures.).
Deqi’s, Yongxin’s, and the Encyclopedia’s forms are complete, but there are differences between the way they perform:
in seconds 1:27~1:31 of his video, Deqi has the few postures that Deci and Liu do not repeat (they don’t miss them, because those missed postures together with a sequence of movements that come after them are exactly repeated later in the form, so they don’t miss those postures, but simply do not repeat them, because they come later in the form.). but he performs these few postures to a direction that makes the direction of the rest of the form opposite, so that at the end Deqi is standing back to the camera.
Encylopedia (in figs 45~47) and Yongxin (in figs 36~38-3), like Zongren, perform those postures to the direction opposite to Deqi’s, so that the rest of the form keeps its direction and at the end the performer stands face to the camera. by the way, Yongxin’s form seems to be different from other resources in its figs 67-1~69-1 (the 2 hold the lion’s head in golden rooster stands on one leg stance, or whatever those postures are called) and also its fig 78 (striding a tiger, fists guard ear and the opposite knee, or whatever else it’s called) is to the opposite direction.
so all the versions are good and all can be considered definitive. by the way, any resource has its own style of body mechanics and joining between the movements.
QiXing and Changhuxinyimen are like mother and son fists WITHIN certain sects.
However QiXIngQuan is much older and originally unrelated.
QiXing has 3 roads. 2 of which I can confirm still exist. While Road 1 has 4 alternative versions, only 1 of which is on youtube.
The name may be older but the current Changhuxinyimen is derived from the XiaoHongQuan of Mogou Pai. (Mogou pai is a song shan sect). Mogou is itself a derivative of the XiYuan Pai and they also have a version of QiXing Quan road 1, which is completely different.
If you see the XiaoHongQuan you can see CHXYM but also how it relates to the current XHQ (if you have good eyes for technique).
I have sent you a PM with a link to a video I filmed of Mogou XHQ. Its a unlisted video and I prefer you keep it that way for now.
The performance style is different but you should be able to see the technique. Enjoy.
thank you Ren! it is a true piece of gem!!! this Mogou Pai Xiao Hong Quan is the same as Chang Hu Xin Yi Men, but only with a stancing difference, Tun bu (swallowing stance) instead of the Xiao Jia (small-frame) stances of Chang Hu Xin Yi Men.
considering the current version of Xiao Hung Quan (the only version i and most other practitioners are familiar with) the current version of Chang Hu Xin Yi Men is a hybrid style that brings Qi Xing Quan characteristics to the technical body of other Hong Quan related styles (Xiao&Da Hong Quan, Pao Quan, and Tong Bi Quan). So Qi Xing seems a strange style, while Chang Hu Xin Yi Men incorporates all those Qi xing Quan characteristics into the core Hong Quan system. so it’s quite obvious that Xiao Hong Quan and Chang Hu Xin Yi Men, despite all their technical differences, share the same basics and shen fa (body movements). Here, if Qi Xing Quan is the older style, it’s natural to assume that Chang Hu Xin Yi Men has been later modified to become a pair with Qi Xing Quan; and if so, for sure this Mogou Pai Xiao Hong Quan has had the technical similarity to Qi Xing Quan, and so it has been somehow modified to become a pair for Qi Xing Quan. this is an acceptable guess, but just a guess for me so far.
most interestingly, this Mogou Pai Xiao Hong/Chang Hu Xin Yi Men Quan had another interesting aspect to me! though i was familiar with both Chang Hu Xin Yi Men Quan and on the other side with Tai Zu Chang Quan and somehow with Rou Quan, i hadn’t found out so much fundamental shares between them; while this form is the same as Chang Hu Xin Yi Men Quan with the same movements, its different forcing style and mechanics makes it obvious that, for example, the mostly repeated series of the successive hammer/fist/palm triple blows of Chang Hu Xin Yi Men that are executed sweepingly to sides together with one sideway stepping, is technically the same as “Wind Shakes Willow Leaves” (parry with arms and palms to both sides, like swaying leaves) of the 13 Luohan patterns of Rou Quan and Tai Zu Chang Quan, but with a different forcing method and mechanics of joining between the parts of movement! just one has to take this form into consideration as the intermediate link between 13 Luohan patterns/Rou/TaiZu Chang Quan on one side and Chang Hu Xin Yi Men Quan on the other side. though being fundamentally different, this similarity also makes Qi Xing Quan closer to those other Shaolin styles, just by considering Chang Hu Xin Yi Men quan as the intermediate linking form between them.
it takes a knowledge more than the almost elementary level i have to extract some dozens of other information packets from this form. i’m sure you have much to say on it. just, as a question, i may ask how do you say that it’s Chang Hu Xin Yi Men that has been derived from this Mogou Pai form, and not vice versa? of course the technical contents, which link this form to the older forms and shen fa are a strong reason, but is there any other information like a historical piece or any folk story?
thanks again.
[QUOTE=SHemmati;1210223]
i’m sure you have much to say on it. just, as a question, i may ask how do you say that it’s Chang Hu Xin Yi Men that has been derived from this Mogou Pai form, and not vice versa? of course the technical contents, which link this form to the older forms and shen fa are a strong reason, but is there any other information like a historical piece or any folk story?
[/QUOTE]
Well, yes you can see to some extent from the technique and also the relation to the current Xiao Hong Quan.
Also they have other forms. Even a Lao Hong Quan (which is effectively a second CHXYM).
All of which share a similarity to Hong Quan technique. The repeated section is more fundmental and important than that in CHXYM and it is easy to see how CHXYM could be derived from MPXHQ but not so easy the other way around.
Also in nearby places there are intermediate forms.
Also they have stories. They say over a century ago a great master from their village took their Kung Fu back to Shaolin Temple.
This would be consistant as CHXYM only exists in a few sects in Shaolin. Most of what you see comes from a distinct era.
My hypothesis is that ChangHuXinYiMen is an old name in Shaolin and I think it was a set of technique but perhaps not a form. When Mogou Pai XHQ was returned to shaolin there was no need to call it XHQ because that already existed. So they merged Mogou XHQ and QIXing QUan and Guandong quan with the technique from the xinyimen and created CHXYM, Qixing and guandong quan in their current popular forms.
QiXing quan in other sects in song shan is very different and bears no resemblance to CHXYM.
I need to research a little more and also learn the rest of Mogou Pai.
The surviving Mogou forms are XiaoHongQuan, QiXIngQuan, YunYang Quan, LaoHOngQuan, GuanXiQuan, LiuHeQuan, ChunQiuDaDao.