[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;965158]Why are we talking about it if it is not complex?[/QUOTE]
i was just wondering what difference it made if a movement is complex or simple. moving is moving, no matter how many muscles are involved. nobody thinks about what muscles need to be contracted or flexed when moving about in their daily lives or in fighting for that matter. there’s no time.
just forget i ask. thanks again.
I’ve told you why it matters, and you said that wasn’t what you were looking for. What are you looking for? Validation that any resistance against your muscles is fine as your body doesn’t differentiate? While that’s true, it’s not to say that all exercises are equal. They’re not, for reasons that myself and Scott have explained.
Furthermore, how many and what muscles are involved in a movement IS important: not in your fighting, of course, because as you’ve pointed out (the blindingly obvious) you don’t have time to think about it in a fight, and nobody is suggesting you do; but in your training. And that’s whether training your body directly in terms of power and muscle function, or in training your fighting skills. You train your muscles in safety and under controlled pressure so they do what they’re supposed to do when under real pressure in danger.
This thread is about squats, which is one of those training methods.
So, basically, what’s your point?
Mr Punch, your response assumes that i didn’t understand Benny’s explanation. 
Like I said in my previous post “forget it”. thanks.
[QUOTE=Mr Punch;965114]
Simple exercises blow. They have much less crossover into everyday life. They only have use for very simple actions. They increase your likelihood of injury. They sometimes do have use for assisting your bigger lifts (i.e. curls to cleans), but generally they are strictly for bodybuilders.[/QUOTE]
All of these statements are incorrect.
Some simple movements have more crossover to real life than do their complex movement counterparts. The average person is much more likely to perform an elbow flexion (as is done in a standing arm curl) lifting motion in his daily activities than he is to perform a shoulder flexion, adduction (as is done in a pull down).
Rather than increasing injury risk, single joint exercises are also a good way to prevent injuries, as they can be used to balance out muscle imbalances that occur in sports and every day activities.
Isolation exercises also assist in sports such as grappling that require several isolation movements.
[QUOTE=dirtyrat;965166]i was just wondering what difference it made if a movement is complex or simple. moving is moving, no matter how many muscles are involved. nobody thinks about what muscles need to be contracted or flexed when moving about in their daily lives or in fighting for that matter. there’s no time.
just forget i ask. thanks again.[/QUOTE]
Specificity is the key. You have to look at what the goal is and what movements are specific to that goal. If you are training for a sport, you need to mimic the motions of that sport. If you want to avoid injury, you also need to mimic the opposing motions, as well as to train specifically weak areas that are prone to injury.
Multijoint and single joint (which usually aren’t really single joint, but also involve another joint as a stabilizer or partial mover) can both be part of a good strengthening program.
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;965229]single joint (which usually aren’t really single joint, but also involve another joint as a stabilizer or partial mover) can both be part of a good strengthening program.[/QUOTE]
exactly; there is really no such thing as a “single joint” movement: for example, anytime you move at all, you engage spinal joints at the very least as stabilizers,
in fact from a clinical perspective, it is sometimes easier for people to do “complex” movements that operate in context of their particular dysfunctional patterns of movement than it is for them to do isolated “single” joint movements that operate outside of that; for example, someone might have no problem at all doing a sit to stand with their left leg forward (a complex, multi-joint movement), but can’t do it at all with the right leg forward, and then when you have them try do isolated gluteal contraction on the right leg, which is a simple / single-joint muscle, they can’t do it, and fire hamstrings instead (which are a multi-joint one); so in this case, you need to train the single joint, simple action of gluteus max doing hip extension, and you may need to go back to prone and do it, because if you tried it in standing, they would never be able to do it;
simple-stuff is needed to do the complex stuff - but once you get it and put it all together, you will naturally tend to emphasize the complex because it mimics daily living functional patterns;
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;965225]All of these statements are incorrect.
Some simple movements have more crossover to real life than do their complex movement counterparts. The average person is much more likely to perform an elbow flexion (as is done in a standing arm curl) lifting motion in his daily activities than he is to perform a shoulder flexion, adduction (as is done in a pull down).
Rather than increasing injury risk, single joint exercises are also a good way to prevent injuries, as they can be used to balance out muscle imbalances that occur in sports and every day activities.
Isolation exercises also assist in sports such as grappling that require several isolation movements.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;965229]Specificity is the key. You have to look at what the goal is and what movements are specific to that goal. If you are training for a sport, you need to mimic the motions of that sport. If you want to avoid injury, you also need to mimic the opposing motions, as well as to train specifically weak areas that are prone to injury.
Multijoint and single joint (which usually aren’t really single joint, but also involve another joint as a stabilizer or partial mover) can both be part of a good strengthening program.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=taai gihk yahn;965246]exactly; there is really no such thing as a “single joint” movement: for example, anytime you move at all, you engage spinal joints at the very least as stabilizers,
in fact from a clinical perspective, it is sometimes easier for people to do “complex” movements that operate in context of their particular dysfunctional patterns of movement than it is for them to do isolated “single” joint movements that operate outside of that; for example, someone might have no problem at all doing a sit to stand with their left leg forward (a complex, multi-joint movement), but can’t do it at all with the right leg forward, and then when you have them try do isolated gluteal contraction on the right leg, which is a simple / single-joint muscle, they can’t do it, and fire hamstrings instead (which are a multi-joint one); so in this case, you need to train the single joint, simple action of gluteus max doing hip extension, and you may need to go back to prone and do it, because if you tried it in standing, they would never be able to do it;
simple-stuff is needed to do the complex stuff - but once you get it and put it all together, you will naturally tend to emphasize the complex because it mimics daily living functional patterns;[/QUOTE]
These make sense. Thanks guys!
The issue that “clouded” the whole “compound VS isolation” exercises thing was people that were to freaking lazy to do the “big moves” like the squat.
You had guys that couldn’t even chin their own BW doing curls, guys that had 20" thighs doing leg extensions and both doing it FOR SIZE !
There is, like Chirs and Dale mentioned, nothing wrong with “isolation moves”, and Dale mentioned a perfect example when he said the curl, most be curl more time a day then they “pull-up”.
Its not the exercise it is WHAT the exercise is been done for.
Squats are a very complicated exercise, but it works.. its definitely a compound exercise that everyone needs to try..
i’ve been weightlifting for 27 years and a personal trainer for the past 12 years. the debate over “compound” or “isolation” exercises all boil down to “what are your goals?”
if you are looking to go into “bodybuilding” then you have no choice, you must do both, because their goal is to gain "symmetry, so isolation exercises, such as curls, extensions allow them to correct imbalances.
if you are a weightlifter who does it to enhance their martial arts, such as myself. then you want to focus primarily on “compound” exercises, because they recruit more muscle groups to do the lifts, which is what we want. we want to do “whole body” exercises or “compound” exercises which require you to use as many muscle groups as possible such as the deadlift and squats.
i’m not saying you can’t also do bicep curls or tricep extensions because they do have their place (usually after a compound movement) to get a muscle to “failure”.
regardless, make sure you have fun and lift in a safe manner. take care and peace!
oh, and “knifefighter” you keep avoiding my question like you avoiding squats in the gym…“how long did you train with Hawkins Cheung and when?” so far i’ve answered all your noob questions, yet you haven’t answered my one question.
Jin
[QUOTE=ChinaBoxer;965381]
oh, and “knifefighter” you keep avoiding my question like you avoiding squats in the gym…“how long did you train with Hawkins Cheung and when?” so far i’ve answered all your noob questions, yet you haven’t answered my one question.[/QUOTE]
I didn’t see where you asked me that question. I trained with him when I was at the old Kali academy in the late 70’s, early 80’s. He used to come in and teach there. Why do you ask?
As far as being a trainer, what is your exercise science background?
A weightlifter lifts weights, but any ol’ person who lifts weights should not be referred to as a weightlifter. Here’s to the 13th year of being a personal trainer bringing the knowledge of who is correctly called a weightlifter. (… and to the knowledge of the difference of base vs. balance while we’re at it.)
To much weights
This might be slightly off topic but does anyone find that too much weight training effects their Kung fu? I mean if you get too big does it slow you down. My sifu always told me that the bigger you are the less flexable and quick you will be. You loose the soft whip like force when you have big huge muscles. You don’t see too many body builders in kung fu. Is there a fine line between being fit and strong but still quick and flexable and being too big and slow? If so what exercises does everyone focus on to better their Wing chun and still maintain their speed?
[QUOTE=kungfublow;965716]This might be slightly off topic but does anyone find that too much weight training effects their Kung fu? I mean if you get too big does it slow you down. My sifu always told me that the bigger you are the less flexable and quick you will be. You loose the soft whip like force when you have big huge muscles. You don’t see too many body builders in kung fu. Is there a fine line between being fit and strong but still quick and flexable and being too big and slow? If so what exercises does everyone focus on to better their Wing chun and still maintain their speed?[/QUOTE]
There is a such thing as too big, but you don’t get that way from natural weight lifting. When you lift weights you will lose some flexibility. You won’t lose speed as long as you train your speed.
[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;965720]There is a such thing as too big, but you don’t get that way from natural weight lifting. When you lift weights you will lose some flexibility. You won’t lose speed as long as you train your speed.[/QUOTE]
What types of drills do you do to train your speed?
[QUOTE=kungfublow;965716]You don’t see too many body builders in kung fu. Is there a fine line between being fit and strong but still quick and flexable and being too big and slow? If so what exercises does everyone focus on to better their Wing chun and still maintain their speed?[/QUOTE]
Look at the top MMA fighters. They’re lifting, sometimes weights and sometimes bodyweight without adverse affect - only the contrary: added affect.
Don’t believe the Kung-Fu hype of 500+ years ago. 
[QUOTE=couch;965726]Look at the top MMA fighters. They’re lifting, sometimes weights and sometimes bodyweight without adverse affect - only the contrary: added affect.
Don’t believe the Kung-Fu hype of 500+ years ago. :)[/QUOTE]
The MMA guys are lifting to increase muscle stamina. From what I’ve seen they concentrate on reps and not weight. They are trying to get lean not big. I’m more talking about guys trying to get big losing their quickness.
Huge muscles mean your heart and lungs have to work harder to supply them with oxygen, etc.
MMA fighters want to get strong, not huge. If you’re trying to make weight, you don’t want to pack on muscle for show. Same with lightweight Oly weightlifters and powerlifters who don’t want to get huge, just strong.
You can use weights to get a lot stronger without gaining significant size or losing flexibility.
I agree that hardcore bodybuilding and training for combat sports are going to conflict. All that time pumping iron that would probably be better spent on other things, for one.
[QUOTE=kungfublow;965716]This might be slightly off topic but does anyone find that too much weight training effects their Kung fu? I mean if you get too big does it slow you down. My sifu always told me that the bigger you are the less flexable and quick you will be. You loose the soft whip like force when you have big huge muscles. You don’t see too many body builders in kung fu. Is there a fine line between being fit and strong but still quick and flexable and being too big and slow? If so what exercises does everyone focus on to better their Wing chun and still maintain their speed?[/QUOTE]
Too much weight lifiting can make your MA suffer in the sense that you devote more time to ST than to MA.
Getting too big has to do with diet, m any people ST and are very strong and don’t put on a pound, again to do with diet.
Flexability is not compromized by strength or adding muscle.
Years ago they did a study of flexability of Olympic athletes and, aside from gymnasts (duh!), the most flexable were the olympic lifters.
People who are big and slow are big and slow because they are big and slow.
[QUOTE=kungfublow;965734]The MMA guys are lifting to increase muscle stamina. From what I’ve seen they concentrate on reps and not weight. They are trying to get lean not big. I’m more talking about guys trying to get big losing their quickness.[/QUOTE]
That is a common fallacy, more reps = more muscular endurance not stamina as we tend to view it (muscular stamina over cardio stamina).
Although fallacy may perhaps be too strong a word.
High reps (25+) has a place in MA training but lest be truthful here, MA are NOT endurance atletes, we do not put out a constant output over a specific range, it varies greatly from high intensity burst of explosive strength to sustained submaximal efforts.
MA tend to be very activity specific and the best cradio for that is the SPECFIC sport.
Strength training on the other hand, can be argued that it should be generalized.
In other words:
Cardio vascular endurance and muscle endurance trained by doing the specific MA
Strength trained by doing general strength training to strength the whole body with focus on performance over appearance.