I know there are thousands of threads regarding the certain slanderous comments between kai uwe pel and lee kam wing, about incorrect teaching and lineage etc, but it seems we have missed alot of the core principles of mantis, do you think a person sat 300-400 years ago studying a mantis in the hope of working out how to disunite the martial arts world, now i know people would critisise my lack of knowledge and thats okay, because think about it, most masters of old, they didnt start with knowledge, but they started with an idea, and the determination to see this idea to fullfillment, but in this world knowledge is also mispriced, and sells for a lot more than its worth, because at the end of the day, if i practice just two forms for hours or i had accumulated sixty or seventy but practiced them when they tv broke down, who would be the better practitioner, which is why all of us, should be dedicated to becoming teachers, or masters, or rich, but remaining beginners, and still seeing the techniques even though we may master them eventually, with the same wander and awe as when we very first saw them practiced, and that way with a continued respect for the art, we might have a greater respect for the practioners of that art, so i put this question forward to the masses, what makes a good mantis practioner?
Re: Pause for thought
Originally posted by HeartbreakRidge
so i put this question forward to the masses, what makes a good mantis practioner?
We must remember that one man is much the same as another,
and that he is best who is trained in the severest school."
- Thucydides, “History of the Peloponnesian War” (431-404 B.C.)
Thanks Wolfen,
That quote is good nuf to hang across the door of a kwoon
“In the old days men sought knowledge in order to improve themselves. Now men seek knowledge to impress other people.”
“A man should not worry that other people has failed to recognize his merits, he should only worry that he has failed to recognize the merits of other people”.
Confucious
Seems ego was a problem back in the smart guys time also!
Making public a challenge, bickering over who is the meanest, badest, toughest…childish.
sayloc,
Should challenges be private?
Tainan,
did you get my last email?
Daohong,
A challenge over the net to someone you have never met should be private. I am not sure I have seen any of this type of challenge on this forum but I have on others.
I feel a public challenge is more about ego and the person issuing the challenge is probably not serious in the first place or the challenger would just go to that person and take care of business without making a public statement.
I think this would make the style of the challenger look foolish and immature.
“Men do not beat drums before they hunt for tigers”
My definition of a challenge may be different. If a guy says " hey sayloc, you do 8 step and I do seven star, lets get together for some san shou or the like and see how we deal with each other". I may say “sure just dont kick my a$$ to bad”. I dont consider that a challenge. Thats just good old fashion fun! I would have to know the guy, dont want to deal with any goof balls.
A match and a challenge are different. I consider the hardcore k1 stuff a match.
I see a challenge as someone has a real problem with the other person. I would think that a challenge duel as this could easily end in death.
You would not be very smart to issue a public challenge and then end up killing someone (accidents do happen). Stupid, Stupid, Stupid. You would make alot of friends in prison. Even if the guy agrees. The dead persons mother will take the net files and show the judge or government. You just convicted yourself. If the challenger has not thought of this, it is obvious he/she is not experienced in these types of “challenges”.
Before someone shows up at a guys house that he does not know to kick their a$$ they should be prepared to get a 45 slug between thier eyes.
That is what a warrior from 400 years ago would do today.
Have a nice day 
I personally do not believe in challenges. I say you show up and man up if this is what you want to do. My KF Uncle Tainan Mantis has been thru numerous challenges. And someday, I hope to sit and hear all the stories. Posting on the net, or to speak with excessive pride about beating down… not good with me. An approach I`d take, make friends… and learn. You can certainly learn by friendly crossing of hands, and maybe even make a brother for life. If a group handles themselves a certain way, says this and says that… people know the truth. It kind of makes me sick with all the s h i t going on in the world, I think we as Mantis Boxers should show our true colors. I like to think we have class.
Sayloc had a nice quote:
“men do not beat drums before they hunt for tigers”
ancient bullets
Originally posted by sayloc
[B]
Before someone shows up at a guys house that he does not know to kick their a$$ they should be prepared to get a 45 slug between thier eyes.
That is what a warrior from 400 years ago would do today.
[/B]
Reminds me of a story from Pan Qing Fu.
Seems there was a famous Kungfu Master in China and one day a stranger came and stood outside his house.
The stranger picked up two large flat rocks held them outstretched levelly to his shoulders. He kept both palms up cradling the heavy rocks. Then in this position the stranger walked a ba gua circle for several hours.
..
The stranger came back and did this every day. The Master knew what he wanted: He was challenging the teacher to a duel.
So after a week or so of this the Master got fed up. He waited til the Challenger had done his walking thing for an hour or two , then he came out and said:
“Ok OK! I’ll fight you!”
So, the challenger bent down to put down one rock. And it was in this position with still two rocks in his hands, with his arms tired and bending over to the ground that the Master kicked the Challenger in the head.
Then the Master made sure he wouldn’t come back for a while.
…
Moral:
Challengers are better to have brains in head than rocks in hands.
Yushan,
Here is a couple more from my brother
“Empty barrels make the loudest noise”
“Go outside and practice falling down. I will be out in an hour”.
I think you would have to be nuts to challenge this tainan guy. Seems like he knows his stuff, and does not have to bragg. I would like to set down and have some tea with him. That is a more comfortable way to learn
wolfen,
Great story! Havnt heard that one.
For all the challengers out there, Go join the US army. You only have to join for two years. They will send you to Irag and you can prove yourself. If you have a death wish, join the other side. The USA armed forces will help you on yur journey!
OOh Raah!!!
We often lose our focus; mantis and CMA in general have a deep history in self-cultivation. It seems that all of this small talk is off the mark! People would do better to spend their time training and cultivating themselves and sharing in meaningful relationships rather than beating their chest. It all gets old. Ask yourself? Really,do you think old time fighters would be doing all this? NOT . And where would any of us be if someone was not willing to share some knowledge with us and inspire us to do the hard work. I say lets train, and be gentlemen .
sayloc,
Thanks for that explanation, after I posted I realized that you might not take me seriously… I appreciate it, and now I see what you mean clearly. I guess what I mean then is, do you have any opinions about the manner in which schools used to challenge each other or even a teacher demanding that a school close or a “Fake” stop teaching? I have heard a story from several people about a Taiji teacher getting knocked around in a park in Taizhong after he told another teacher he couldn’t teach in that particular area because it was “his” teaching spot. Many people were there. I think the guy who was rough with him was a mantis practitioner. Is this just simply bad behavior do you think? And which Guy was in the wrong if either were?
Thanks again.
Hi Daohong,
I am glad you did not think I came across to harsh. I thought that you may have been making one of these challenges yourself. I was not sure how far you had thought it through and wanted let you know that prison time or worse could be in your future if things went “bad”.
I understand now that you are not thinking of this just looking for opinions.
You have to understand that many of these “old chllenges” were due to money. The mantis guy was in that area because it was probalbly the best place in that park to teach. That is where people knew to find him, and this was probably a source of income. The new guy comes in and tries to take the spot he has taught at for ten years. It may have been a mistake or intentional, who knows. I could see why the mantis guy would be upset, but I think they should have been able to work things out.
I have read on posts that tainan mantis teaches alot in parks. What if he has taught in the same place for the past ten years and a baji guy comes up and starts teaching in the same place that tainan does every saturday? I think the tainan guy should be allowed to use his original spot and time. But, then again it is a public park.
The same type of things happend in the towns, A hung ga guy moves in and takes the mantis guys business.
The other thing to remember is that alot of these things that happened were over organized crime. Opium, Prostitutes and the like. The schools were not just teaching kung fu, so there was a lot more $$ at stake. These are the people who will kill you.
The same thing happens now. Tae kwon do guy moves in and you get in a price war. May not be a direct challenge or end in a fight but still along the same lines.
I will send you a pm about a personal experience.
So once again I say that challenges over the net to people that you have never met are childish.
Have a nice day
One last thing to add.
With over 100,000 people getting killed by a huge wave, husbands seeing thier wives die, parents watching thier small children being washed out to sea, dont you think this type of thing (challenges, I’m better than you…ect..) is very foolish.
We should thank God we have our lives and try to help others in need, not try to beat a stranger to death.
Spend your energy on something good.
shanghai
Tidal wave and war. Yeah, exactly the same thing:confused:
How were my comments throwaway? They are about fighting.
I told you you could join the other side, since that sounds like who you support. I dont care who people that want to prove themselves fight.
If the challengers want to prove they are tough guys and are to afraid to go to war or even serve in a military force they could go to south asia and face that death and destruction. It could be as difficult as war.
Originally posted by sayloc
[B]wolfen,
Great story! Havnt heard that one.
Seems you and Yushan share my opinions on challenges.
[/B]
I dunno if i do exactly, it all depends. Like Shang Wu says most internet stuff like that is a waste of energy. Their Qi is seeping out. But also it is propaganda war and advertising for some people.
…
It was just a story passed on by of Master Pan’s students, he likes to tell a lot of them apparently. Perhaps realistically suckering someone is unwise because they it may doubly motivate them to come back (if they are able) because they may still feel they can have a fair shot. But then again that guy was humiliated by his own stupidity.
The reality in Mainland China and probably Taiwan is that the police most commonly will not be involved unless MONEY is involved. That is, if someone has something broken or something is broken, then someone has to pay the (hospital) bills, and also pay the policeman’s salary for being involved. They don’t like to be involved without much return on investment, it makes them angry. Peoppe don’t like to call the police. Don’t ever get caught helping someone injured or beaten up. Why? Because obviously you are reponsible for their condition because no one else would dare to be involved except one who felt guilty!
…
Then again the hospital might take advantage to rip off someone in this situation. Once i saw a waitress accidently spill hot water on a customer in a nightclub, The customer was rushed off to the hospital by the boss of course. The hospital upon seeing the situation in which the boss was obligated, then ordered many expensive tests and expensive medicines for treatment. The boss was fuming, but what could he do? He was obligated by custom to take care of the customer. The alternative of the Law would have been worse.
In China, everything is money. Third in importance after face and family?
…
I remember another story from Master Pan:
someone came to challenge a master in his school when he was alone. the master took a sword from the wall, went into a horse stance and stuck it in his own leg and then gazed impassively at the challenger as the blood poured out on the floor. The challenger ran off. Maybe custom expected him to reciprocarte?
…
What do you think of that story?
Wolfen
two people can not agree exacly on anything. I was speaking in general.
I did not mean to speak for you.
Originally posted by sayloc
[B] I could see why the mantis guy would be upset, but I think they should have been able to work things out.
I I think the tainan guy should be allowed to use his original spot and time. But, then again it is a public park.
[/B]
A “public park” although it is a “public park” is not a “public park” in another culture.
The ethnocentric mistake is to always think things with the same name are the same things in another culture which is a mistake without understanding the social structures which they are affiliated with. In this case would be: popular culture, tradition, law and law enforcement, municipal/political involvement.
In America, i saw like 10 squad cars and probably the Swat Team coming screaming sirens to the park when some guys took some broadswords there. In Taiwan the police probably won’t show for a fistfight especially when it looks like a typical kungfu activity where people are always doing kung fu.
Daohang, i think you must know from living there, the tradition is that your spot is your spot and if certainly is a loss of face to let someone push you out of it, and if you want somebody’s spot youd better expect to fight for it.
Course anything can happen. These are modern times now.
…
What’ya gonna do? Start a protest march? The mantis guy did what he had to.
No one in officialdom is interested in this and to invite the authorities is to invite trouble, since all those park activities are probably technically illegal there anyway. In the simple, typical chinese way everything is ilegal whcich makes policiing in times of trouble or enforced municipal change very easy.
“It may have been a mistake or intentional, who knows. I could see why the mantis guy would be upset, but I think they should have been able to work things out.”
HAHAHA yeah sure.. just like Genghis Khan working things out with the chinese at the gates of Beijing!! …
It sounds like things got worked out in the proper historical fashion.
..
A foreigner is at a bit of a disadvantage because attracting the attention of the police might get him deported or in trouble. Of course who he is and what he does is important. But he might be taking more risk than his challenger. On the mainland if you’ve got friends with “guanxi” with the police then you don’t worry and also be darn careful you don’t mess with anyone “connected”.
..
On the other hand one foreigner can beat up another foreigner because if the police are involved then you will both get deported, they just don’t like trouble. So both foreigners in a dispute have to keep silent.
Fellow foreigners are maybe the most troublesome to other foreigners.
And i knew about and was involved in these kind of fights. But it was all a world of our own. Even one guy went to the hospital for stiches had to keep silent lest he also get in trouble.
So you really fall through the cracks neither under Home law or Taiwan law but remember some good advice: ..“if you live outside the law you must be honest.”. (Bob Dylan).
I knew two Kungfu guys who were brothers ran a school in in a tourist town in China. They always walked about town together, never alone, they had made some enemies, they liked to drink and fight. A business opened up some Taiqi classes for tourists and was doing a booming business. The brothers went there like a bad kungfu movie and said: “Only we teach kungfu in this town!”.
But the entreperneuer (only a taiqi guy and mostly hotel businessman) stood up to them. He said: “Go ahead beat me up! You own a gun? You can dodge bullets? How long can you dodge bullets?”
The brothers raged but they didn’t do anything.
Maybe the times are changing.
So that’s the traditional thing. You want a piece of the action, you have to fight for it.
I was told that my Crane Men Pai started in Hong Kong a long time ago needed a sit-down and tea ceremony with the other kungfu teachers at that time before they could start their school.
Sayloc,
Nice philosophy.
The spirit of MA we cultivate has been applied to fund raising here in Tainan in my pizzaria to help the Tsunami victims.
I am happy to report that many people were very happy to give large sums of $$.
This seems like a good use of the moral and spiritual aspect of our training.
Funny you mention about people taking my spot under the big tree in the park.
This has happened very many times. I don’t even think that people knew it was “my” place.
What do I do?
I speak nicely and make a new friend.
About every park challenge, if you can call it that, is polite.
That doesn’t mean that the hitting is sissified, but there is a cultivation of wude principal in MA schols that demand respect among practitioners.
Meanest challenge was from a mama in her 50’s.
It was issued in a temple as an exchange of knowledge.
Sadly, I lost that challenge, and was beaten fair and square.
But, I learned a lot from her skill and often hope to meet again for a rematch.
Daohong,
email received.
yushan, sayloc
men don’t beat drums before they hunt tigers.
Actually they do, they ride ontop of elephants, beat drums and make alot of noise to flush them out and shoot them on the run.
kind of like the fox hunt with the dogs.
Originally posted by sayloc
[B]Wolfen
two people can not agree exacly on anything. I was speaking in general.
I did not mean to speak for you. [/B]
…
Thats okay, i just didn’t want to sign on the dotted line.
…
Tsunami tragedy: Don’t let people get your goat, if they are lost like that nothing you can say will make any difference.
Some people can empathize with tragedy and others in an unfeeling way use it in political argument.
…
One kungfu sister wrote an essay saying that if everyone practiced kungfu there would be world peace!
Hmmm…