Other Internal Systems

Nei Jia: the Qigong and Taijiquan Forum Taijiquan and the Internal Martial Arts
21

Good answers, but I find a defining characteristic is how they move and generate power.

Taiji is an internal martial art, but I have seen many people practice it externally - basically they don’t move right. Too much tension, too much local muscle, not really using the center, disconnections in the body so it is not moving as a unit, etc, etc.

I was once told of this guy giving a lecture on internal strength concepts that while at the blackboard and writing, he turned around to find much of the class looking at him very strangely. He asked what was up, and they said they could see his whole body was even behind writing on the chalkboard - it was not just his arm moving, as most do.

This is a defining characteristic of what is internal. How you move. Externalists move differently than internalists. Most external martial arts styles incorporate internal ideas at higher levels - I remember my karate teacher telling me things he just discovered that I had learned in tai chi. Eventhough an externalists may become more internal, most of the time it is still a far cry from what an internalist does.

What it means to be internal is a packaged set of various characteristics/ideas/techniques - but the “are you moving right” portion is usually skipped; particularly by tai chi people. If you are not moving right - you do not have an internal martial art, it is dancing, perhaps a chi gung for health, etc. but not an internal martial art.

22

Before this thread slips off the page I want to thank you all for your response. They were all helpful.

I look at internal arts first as a separate paradigm of movement and strength, with specific physical attributes involving whole body power, the six harmonies, moving from the dan tien, and the use of relaxed yet ready body structure allowing the power to travel through our physical structure uninhibited by muscular tension. This list of attributes is not exclusive or exhaustive.

Its not that I disagree with the metaphysical explanations, but in many ways these ideas can also apply to wai jia as well, so I see this more as shared ground between wai jia nd nei jia.

Obviously I don’t have this all figured out, or I wouldn’t have asked.

Thanks again for your input.

23

Waterboxing is another internal style. check it out.

www.hsing-i.com there are mpeg video clips on it!

kung fu books

24

Greetings..

Most of my posts include some metaphysical reference because too often Tai Chi is reduced to physical (bio-chemical) operations.. I have been taught to train the entire being, the body, mind and spirit.. Equal attention to each, at least for me, raises the whole being in a balanced approach to life..

I agree that the field of combat is the ultimate test of Tai Chi’s potential.. particularly when one is so well trained that they can exhibit compassion and mercy while controlling an opponent.. Other internal systems such as QiGong cultivate and refine the energy we use in our Tai Chi.. Meditation, an internal system, prepares the mind to maintain focus during conflict and expand awareness of the energies involved in the dynamic experience of combat.. Chin Na, as taught to me, utilizes internal principles to put an opponent in a negotiating state of mind..

Iron Palm, Iron shirt, Iron Fist training are also largely internal, training the body to express internal principles at extreme limits.. As always, from my own perspective, we seek to enhance the internal systems with tried and proven techniques from whatever sources are available.. that is not to say we indiscriminately modify traditional systems, “tried and proven” is an daunting process of evaluation and consensus by others that a method or technique serves the internal systems in a complimentary manner. A revision or newly developed system should be evaluated and accepted as valid in principle and in practical application, in short, as HuangKaiVun says “does it work”.. and, is it based on traditional “Internal” principles..

Internal principles are often difficult to observe, the coiling and rotating of the DanTien is not easily seen, but the resulting posture and power is quite evident.. The movement of the individual is smooth, flowing and graceful.. yet, somehow we sense the potential for devastating power..

Okay, so i ramble from time to time.. the point is that i don’t limit “other internal systems” to only those “labeled” as such.. I look for the qualities that make any movement internal.. Sorry for the departure from topic, but.. true to form, i just follow my inclinations..

Be well..

25

BAJI ! is External

Hello Walter.

Waidan,

BAJI ! ROCKS ! It’s still an external style. I am as unrelenting as the spear of Li Shuwen on this point . (uh… I think that was 2 points :confused: . . . er . a spear has onyl one point, . . o.k as the spear of Li Shuwen AND the sword of Zhang Xiangwu. HAH ! 2 points!)

Fu-pow, you are wrong! Sorry I can’t prove it. I just believe that qi is real and good body mechanics have been masquerading as internal power for too long.

Taijbob, Don’t be shy about the metaphisics. Don’t be fooled by my strident BAJI ! manner. ( I probably spend more time circle walking than training BAJI ! but don’t tell Sifu. :frowning: )

To reduce the concept of an internal art to gross physiology (not disgusting, the other ‘gross’) is to miss the point. Pinning down what makes an art internal is as hard as pinning down Yin-fu’s centerline. The power is invisible. Felt but not seen. Even felt only when desired. Getting hit by an internal strike should be a bit like banging your head in the dark. That **** cross beam just plain didn’t exist until it split your skull open.

The power appears out of the void and vanishes without a trace.

26

TaiChiBob,

Ramble on, please.

Omar,
Thats the spirit.

Everyone else…there is no RIGHT answer here, I am looking for OPINIONS.

Thanks,
Walter

p.s. do put thought into your response though.
:cool:

27

My apologiies to you Omarthefish, I missed the frowning face set before External in your post. My post is now simply a info commercial post advertising Baji as both internal/external.

[Sorry Omarthefish]

To reinforce Omarthefish’s point, I don’t think I would ever classify bajiquan as “external” or as “internal”. Baji is about as external as is Chen’s taijiquan, especially pao chuei.

Baji neigong, eating the sun, exercise is all internal and teaches reverse breathing. It is a form of hun yuan qi gong. The one baji pole shaking exercise incorporates heng haah breathing. Xiao baji is relaxed upper body with deep breathing to 8 structural points and fajing.

Baji’s punching power can be conceptualized under the wu xing or five elements framework.

Interestingly, like Chen’s taiji there seems to be some distant linkage to xing yi.

We have yet to even discuss the pigua training with emphasis on deep breathing and dog skin hand training. Liu Da Kai (six big opeinings) are the jiben gong form of the system and later integrates baji and pigua techniques in the execution of its applications.

Intent and mind are very, very critical for the upper levels of baji.

I think I would say that one either has complete or incomplete training in a system. Just like Yin and Yang, external and internal cannot be separated.

Even elementary spear training, da qiang, turning the spear over, can be co-ordinated with breathing and exemplifies complete chan si jing from the feet throught the waist out to the tip of the spear.

http://www.wutangcenter.com/bajipigua.htm

BTW, my teacher has a couple of Aunts from Xi’an and we visited in 1998. We did get to meet and dine with Ma Xian (Shan?) Da.

Who do you train under in Xi’an?

28

Omar, I can’t say I agree with you totally (though I’m hardly an expert on Baji…I just know what I see), but I dig your post. Some very good points and I love the crossbeam analogy.:slight_smile:

29

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=10383

This thread contains some excellent posts by RAF on the subject of baji and piqua and their internal nature.

30

Thank you RAF. What I relly want is a scowling smiley with fire coming out of his eyes. :mad:

four classic ‘levels’ of Tajiquan energy:

gang - hard, rou - soft, you - rounded, hua - slippery

BAJI ! = gang !

So you get ‘hard’ power in it’s purest form. My Sifu said if I learn BAJI ! well I’ve already learned 1/4 of taijiquan. No small achievement. I believe it is not internal because:

  1. Sifu said so. :stuck_out_tongue:
  2. It’s power is too apparant.
  3. The ‘I am training an internal martial art’ mindset tends to turn folks into wimps who are afraid of sweating and feeling pain.

Back on topic, I think one of the keys to a true internal art is that the power is utterly invisible.

p.s.
Ma Xianda (in chinese his given name sounds like ‘first strike’:eek:) teaches not far from where I live. Next time you guys make it out here I’d love to meet with you.

There is also Ma Zhenbang (no relation) of that generation and my Sifu who is a lineage holder directly from Zhang Xiangwu but prefers to remain nameless untill such time as I am deemed worthy (read skilled enough) to act as his emmisary. That doesn’t mean you couldn’t meet with him though if you came through Xi’an.

31

p.s. just got started reading your posts on the other threads. Really good stuff.

32

Omarthefish:

I wish I would have known that when we were in Xi’an.

BTW, I love the dumpling houses and the Yang rou Pao mo–a great muslim/Chinese dish.

Please keep in contact. I also am trying to learn as much as I can about Zhang Xiang-Wu. I have learned a couple of levels of the Yang style taiji taught by Liu Yun Qiao and its decent but nothing radical at this stage.

Later.

33

no worries.

besides, I’ve only been in Xi’an since 2000, known my Sifu for a year and been a disciple for barely 6 months.

34

what about liuhapafa ?

35

Souljah

Greetings..

I learned the LiuHaBaFa Dragon set from WeiLun Choi.. quite the impressive form.. but only a fraction of the whole system.. It is demanding, dynamic and effective.. i would definately attempt the whole system if there was a qualified local master.. Check out the credentials of any teachers, there seems to be quite a few “misinformed” teachers out there..

Be well…

36

the only guy I’ve been told is in the lineage and is supposed to be any good is some guy in Chicago.

37

ummm, Souljah…

Choi would be the “some guy” you’re thinking of. :wink:

Lucky for you to have gotten that from him TaiChiBob.

No one has mentioned Zimen (Word Gate Boxing) as an internal system:confused:

38

erm, never heard of Zimen (where is it from? etc)

I didnt get the second sentance you wrote

Lucky for you to have gotten that from him TaiChiBob.

Is taichibob this choi from chicago>?
soul

39

Is that ziranmen? There was discuyssion of that months back on EF.
Thanks count for bringing it to the discussion.

40

No Souljah,

But TaiChiBob mentioned in his post to have learned some Liu Ho Ba Fa From Grand Master Choi. According to his profile TaiChiBob is from Florida. Florida is quite far from Chicago so it is lucky for TCB to have had the opportunity to learn anything from Wai Lun Choi.

Walter,

I was not refering to Ziranmen (Natural Boxing) which I believe has been mentioned in this thread already. I definately meant Zimen (Word Gate Boxing) which no one has mentioned. Funny you should make that mistake though. The teacher who has demonstrated word gate boxing to me was also a Ziranmen teacher. Both systems could be considered “internal martial arts” if you make such distinctions. Personally, I think it is the process and not the system.