In order to be a fighter, one must, on some level, fight. To claim knowledge on fighting without actually fighting or knowing one’s own fighting ability from similar experiences is a questionable and fraudulent practice.
Students are taught techniques first in a static form, the motions of the moves are performed until they become second nature, and practicing them on another person is introduced. The partner is in an idealized position to have the move performed on them, and the technique is then practiced this way, and the form improved using what is learned from this.
If the training on this technique only reaches this level, this is not complete, and the form will be inferior, and the practitioner cannot be said to be able to fight using this technique. In fact, they are only qualified to practice the technique more.
Until the technique is worked in a more free flowing situation, it cannot be said to be addequately understood. In the free form(sparring/fighting), the practitioner learns that the ideal set-up practiced against their partner almost never occurs, and probably occurs not at all against a competent fighter. The practitioner then learns how to create the opening necessary to execute the technique on an unwilling adversary. Move by move, this must be learned, until the practitioner has enough moves acclimated that they can be said to have a coherent fighting style, at which point they can be considered a true fighter, and not before.
Technique cannot be learned without learning how it affects different opponents. Technique should not end at the tip of one’s fingers, or at the end of one’s kick, but must extend into the opponent and affect them in a way that is advantageous to the fighter.
These principles are not my own creation, but are merely the practice of fighting as I have seen it in use by those schools and individuals that I have seen to be excellent fighters.
Don’t you know that to be recognized as a fighter all you have to do is claim to be “champion of all asia” by winning an obscure tournement that may or may not have existed, facing other people and schools that have no real history of winning?
Then you cobble together some cheap QiGong street performer tricks with bad judo, bad tang soo do and misinterpreted CMA.
Then YOU NEVER SPAR. Neither do your students. THEN - when they get their asses wupped by a couple high school kids, you tell your students the problem is theirs - they need to do more ‘par gay’ - which I think means sexually confused butter substitute.
Be alright to ask yourself what I am thinking of this?
All kidding aside - yeah, I agree with you. However, I do beleive that two person drills bring your fighting skills pretty far - but until you put it together against someone really skilled who is actually fighting you, you’ll miss key aspects of what you would face in a real fight.
I have always found sparring / fighting the way to identify where I had gaps in my training.
I would go on to say, that those static techniques are merely an initial response, Black responding to White’s opening chess move. There is still an entire game of chess to be played. But screw up this opening, actually lapse on any one move against a good player, and its over.
Those training to be figters, I among them, must remeber that that attack will not be spoon fed to you by an actual foe, and they will adjust and do what they can to actually hit you, not help you get the technique. How one’s weight distributiob, focus, and most importantly, ability to change, after that initial contact, is what fighting is about.
Most inexperinced fighters, when they do get in the ring, ofetn pause as if surprised the technique worked, or partially jammed up the other. The more one fights the more one automoatically continuse where there is no “technique”. It is all one expression until the guy is down. In that expression lies technique.
I think you also made a great point mentioning different types of fighters. I think this is important. Fight tall, short, fat, think, muscular, fight everybody. See what works best where. Yes, everyone is an individual, but long arms are long arms. Advantages are advanatages. Find ways to exploit weakness when coming up against advantages.
These are not the same things. One can be “fun” the other can be very different!..
The tendencie here is to take one for the other! Many people who would suck in the ring could very well kill you in the real world.
I was not meaning to sound like I was discussing ring fighting. I think, even if someone trains for ring fighting, they should still also train without the rules the particular venue fights in utilizes. For instance, a san shou fighter should still periodically train against ground situations, a point sparring champ should still train in situations where the attacks don’t stop coming, etc.
“I have always found sparring / fighting the way to identify where I had gaps in my training.”
I agree here, this is where you get a good idea on your fighting abilities.
Also, like monkey slap said, you need to find someone with alot of ability to fight with. this is where you will start growing. Find someone who has many years in to fight with, not the local brown belt.
Don’t confuse my words. I was speaking of inexperinced fighters getting in the ring who pause on that initial clash. We spoke of drills, now I’m speaking of this, its all preparing for that encounter. I believe this is a hard obsticle for many to get over.
Nothing changes. The only thing I can think of that is different in ring fighting is that I’ll get penalized when I hit you with my palm, but I’ll do it anyway because it hurts a hell of a lot more than the padded knuckle. I am not talking about point sparring, rather two men thrown in a ring with anything goes.
Its not the street, because the beating is regulated and controlled and there will be a break. But the training is or should be the same.
Actually, the ring skill is a side benefit. I’m training to beat everyone.
I would also say the ring is a part of the real world. If you can’t beat a guy there, how can you say you’ll beat him outside? Unless he beat you in point sparring. Then fine. Beat him up and take his trophy away outside.
Great topic. From where I’m sitt’n, it’s not possible to be competant in your self defence skills with out full, live practice. I used to do only forms (Solo artisy and all), and then I got into sparring with a partner and I saw all my deficiencys. Now that I have been partnerless for a few years, I can see my skills have erroded considerably.
It’s not enough to spar for a wile, you must keep it up on a perminant basis, or you loose it like any other skill.
Hey, why don’t you post this on my Kung Fu forum?? I bet we would get some good responses.
I agree with your post KC. But, I would like to say that sparring/fighting’s benefits are maximized when you have a good opponent and decent person that you engage. I know, of course, that this situation doesn’t always present itself, meaning that you and your opponent may honestly want to kill each other, and refrain from learning until another time. But when you have someone whose willing to review your interaction, you learn somethings that you missed.
I often get hit without seeing what happend. I have kung fu brothers that are willing to share their successes with me and I them. I believe without this added feature to your original post you miss a lot; and possible harm yourself by learning bad habits. Also, you can develop drills that work on these weaknesses, openings, etc.
I’m sure you all, probably, had assumed this an intrinsic part of the thread, but I like being obvious.
Is there anyone else that might disagree or have a different perspective? I would like to hear your views. It can only make my kung fu better.
Didn’t see it there, must have missed it with all the action that board sees.
Still, it would be good for the Kung Fu forum.
Mantis9
I like that you mentioned creating drills based on your weakneses. I think this is an often over looked option by many practioners who for the most part want to follow a dedicated system, not realizing Kung Fu is a live activity.
By sparring, you discover your short commings. Once done the drills you create will specifically target your specific needs!!! This will allow you to develop in the fastest way possible.
I agree KC. I’d like to add one thing though. Sparring and/or ring fighting is a training drill to help you become a better fighter. Don’t make the mistake of thinking you should only be sparring. IMO, it should comprise about 1/5 of your training. The other time needs to be focused on conditioning, form and stance work, two partner drills, and special skill training. Except for the special skill training, you leave out any of these parts and you lose the art. They are all vital components.