On Dedication

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
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I’ve been pondering my training recently and have thought about a few things.

Achieving kung fu is a very difficult task. How many of us who’re still in the beginning of our practise truly understand this? I’m speaking of Chinese Martial Arts, where the road to developing the skillz necessary is a long one.

It is not in everyone, the will to ever accomplish that. How many of those students that beging the journey, never reach a high level. A lot of them don’t even realize the fact and think that they’re progressing, but really are not on the road to mastery.

I’m talking of those guys who don’t train everyday, who just “take kung fu classes” a few times a week. Only recently have I made the transition to serious, daily training and am under an excellent teacher. Before that I was just stumbling in the dark, not really even developing the skills necessary, not really even cognizant of the road I was taking.

The art I’m concentrating on, Baji, is a difficult style. Progress lies in lots of work. The training has made me question my motives and indeed myself, why am I training? Am I willing to put in the hours of work, that just seem to grow more numerous by the month? Why dn’t I just take MMA, the quick road to success?

So, with questions like those on my mind, I have become even more dead-set on doing what I’ve started out to do. It takes a kind of a person to excel in Chinese martial arts, and I’m dedicated to, if I’m not such a person yet, to becoming one with my training. With positive feedback and genuine joy at my (and the other students’) hard work from my sifu, who I greatly respect, I grow even stronger in this.

Now, I’m not trying to toot my own horn here. Sorry, if this sounds like that or even arrogant. I’m just a beginner. I’m just spouting off this stuff in the hopes that somebody else can draw some inspiration from this, maybe making the transition from a weekend warrior or incidental trainee of martial arts into a person on his way to accumulating true kung fu.

And considering we’re on a forum, like so many of the more experienced guys here say, we can’t know who among us is a kung fu tourist and who’s not. Except that in some individuals, the skills speak for themselves even through the text. I encourage everyone to think about their motives and to be realistic about themselves. Walk the walk, or get out of the way.

Thanks for listening. :slight_smile:

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ttt

for initially posting it on a slow weekend.

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Most people just do it for a hobbie. So they never get past the patterns of movement. I found that my development comes from self reflection and not so much the techniques..

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A friend of mine just started training with my master and he is stoked – what martial artists wouldn’t be? We were at a party Sat. night, I just got home from a trip. He was all excited about this technique and that technique. I’m very happy for him. But, I told him to look beyond the technique and understand my sifu’s principles.

He was demonstrating and I knew that my sifu wouldn’t do the techniques the way my friend was demonstraing: “He does soemthing like this and then goes like that.”

“You sure.”

“Yea, he would …”

“I don’t know.”

“No, it was like this and then he would…”

“You sure it maybe wasn’t like this.”

“O’ yea, that’s how he did it.”

I didn’t need to see the technique. Principles. Elbows down, working the main body parts that you are supposed to be working, never against, draw cutting plane, ect.

I always view class as the time to be with my sifu and take in as much as possible; try to get the flavor of a technique. Its when I’m at home alone, that I do my work, really working it over and over until it feels smooth, economical, correct.

Then I’ll go back, he’ll tell me I’m wrong, make an adjustment and then back to it. This is the way I go at it. When I’m commfortable, then I’ll test it.

I guess my point is having the right focus. I think people tend to try and coppy their teacher instead of learning from him. Techniques I believe are secondary because they just fall into place when adhering to the principles. Like one would not go into a fight, thinking, I’m going to do that move sifu does when he…

No, rather deal with the force and mold with and around it and, “O’ look at that, your elbow just happens to be right their … flip.”

But, its a long road. I’ve been on it since I was a kid and the longer I’m on it the stuff behind me seems less relevant and the road up ahead looks marvelous. To me there is no getting off the road, I’ve been on it too long to turnback now and when I see someone like my master (master Bong Chan) I realize that, despite all this talk of equlaity, their are superior people out there – not just regarding martial arts as well.

Anyway, best of luck to you. What;s that saying, we’ll all get to the top of the mountain some day – just different paths. Something like that. Well, I hope to see you there some day. I’m climbing hard. Learning.

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I think it all recquires some serious work to be good. I hear alot on this board about being taught how to fight quickly. Often it is “If it doesnt teach you to fight quickly, what is the point?” Well, if you think you can fight effectively, quickly, you are probably fooling yourself. spar with someone who has been training hard for a few years and then we will talk.
If you do martial arts as a hobby, so be it, I have no problem with that. But if you arent willing to work at it why bother really. I think most of us dedicate ourselves to it for alot of reasons, health, aggressiveness, a challenge, to challenge ourselves and who we are, etc…
I say good luck to you daredevil, I hope you stick with it because down the road it will pay off in one way or another. I daresay stick to your art for as long as you can before moving on. I think supplementing your art with another is ok, but staying with one for as long as you can will get you ****her then those who didnt.

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i don’t really know if there IS a top of the mountain to reach. that’s what eases my conscious if i miss a day here or there in my training. there is no final goal.
daredevil says acheiving kung fu is a difficult task, but i’m not sure of that either. i think if you look at it as difficult then the path will be just that. kung fu is a goal that can’t be acheived so much is it’s a thing that you get as good as you can at. it can’t be fully acheived, like “i’ve finally made it”. you’ll always reach further, or see that there is a further to be reached. i like that. it makes it a life long journey for those who want it as such. or a 3 day a week class for those who want it as such. am i making any sense?

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"Walk the walk, or get out of the way. "
:rolleyes:

"I’m talking of those guys who don’t train everyday, who just “take kung fu classes” a few times a week. Only recently have I made the transition to serious, daily training and am under an excellent teacher. Before that I was just stumbling in the dark, not really even developing the skills necessary, not really even cognizant of the road I was taking. "

That’s nice. You just started “being serious” and you are already babbling about the meaning of dedicated training.

I suggest you walk the walk before you go making declartions about what it really means to train.

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Daredevil–

Nice comment about MMA as a “quick road,” :rolleyes:

pretty misguided. It takes a great deal of time and effort (ie, dedication) to master the skills necessary in MMA.

And this says nothing of the time and effort (ie, dedication) necessary to master the individual pieces common to MMA–boxing, thai boxing, wrestling, submission grappling etc.

Do you have any idea how old most of the world class wrestlers are? Usually in the late twenties, to mid thirties. Know why? Because it takes them that long, since they started doing it at oh, maybe 10 or 11 or at the latest about 14, to reach the peak of their abilities in the form of experience. Oh sure, they might heal slower than they did at 18, and they’ve probably lost a quarter-step on their 20 yr old body, but they’ve got it in spades in savvy, time and effort (ie, dedication).

Oh yeah, did I mention they usually train for several hours a day, five or six days a week, year round? Gee, sounds like time and effort (ie, dedication.)

I typically call comments like yours “talking out of your a$$.”

There’s nothing that ****es me off more than somebody claiming that practitioners of “something else,” don’t have or require the same amount of time and effort (ie, dedication) to get good at combat.

Get a grip. Come back after a couple of years of training that way, and maybe you can talk.

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MP- the truth hurts doesn’t it. hahahahahah.

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Geexe those MMA guys sure are sensitive! :wink:

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I got to classes four days a week. I also work full time and am a full time student. I train at home as well which includes general working out and Kung Fu training. Dedication should be measured in how hard you work. Most people nowadays have too many other responsibilities that they must attend to. My instructor works full time as well. Whether you go one night a week or seven, it’s all in the thought, heart, and effort that you put into your training.

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Good for you Daredevil. What do you consider, “serious, daily training”?

JWT

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Merryprankster,

My wording wasn’t exactly concurrent with my actual thoughts on the subject. MMA guys work at it really hard, I’ve had the oppoturnity to look at them practise (shared the same space) for some time and a part of me really likes that approach. Skill still requires a lot of work, no matter what the route.

However, comparing, lessay, Muay Thai (which is not really a modern art, but a good one for the sake of discussion) for example to Taiji, it does seem like Muay Thai is the quicker route. The good stuff, so to speak, is revealed to you a bit quicker. Better, nope, more efficient, maybe from a certain perspective.

They’re just two very different methologies, or rather approaches.

If you spend one year in CMA (like baji, for instance) doing nothing but stance training, single moving punches and the basic form to develop the most basic foundation for your later development, ie. accumulating kung fu, you haven’t really learned to fight yet. You’ve just made your subsequent learning a lot easier and the latter training meaningful.

(groan) Anyway, that part of the post was nowhere near my point. The same basic point can probably be applied to serious MMA practioners – I’m just speaking from a CMA viewpoint since that is the one I have.

So, instead of *****ing about it, why not share a MMA viewpoint of the matter?

JWT,

Now that question could be a topic all its own, but I guess the most important thing is in the training becoming daily. Your training stops being “something you do” occasionally (even if occasionally is a lot of times a week) and starts being a part of you. On a more practical level, for me right now it’s about 1.5-3 hours of training a day and never really turning your mind off thinking about it.

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well… I find that when i go to class 5 days a week, for 4 hours each time, by the end of the week the kung fu seems as boring as hell, I start hating it. And I don’t really learn much, I start going in circles and just get more mad.
Then I take a week off and in the one day I come back, I almost learn more then the whole 5 days the week before. So now I usually only train 3 times a week.
So basically, I think if want good kung fu you have to keep your life balanced. And if you dont balance it, eventually
it’ll balance it’s self out. You know, to much ying will end up going into yang and so on.

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Since the comments that have been made have made me think my original intent in the post was somewhat muddied by my babbling, I’ll rephrase some points of interest.

Yes, it’s definately important to maintain a balance and to do what feels natural. This doesn’t mean you can’t push yourself, since a little pushing can be very natural.

However, at some point in one’s training (or more specifically, little by little all the time) you learn that there’s constantly more and more to learn. That the road isn’t really getting all that easier, even if it is getting more rewarding. That if one’s practise is a hobby, it will never reach the proper heights.

Somehow, the attitude many folks have in approaching hobbies, like martial arts, is that the hobbies must bend and twist to fit the person. I feel, having gone far enough, that it’s the man that must also seriously reshape to fit the art.

You can learn an art by practising it as a hobby, but to really make an art your own, takes a little deeper commitment.

Indeed, its still about doing whats natural, but its about shaping yourself so that the extreme becomes natural to yourself.

Of course, it’s “to each their own” and what’s right for you, isn’t necessarily right for me.

And for Shaolinboxer, I’m talking about internal stuff. “Walking the walk” ; I feel there are stages we go through and the object of comparison is ourselves. So, by winning myself, I walk the walk. I wasn’t so much referring this time to the other typical usage of the phrase, which is to apply your art or stop speculating and mouth-boxing. That is another thing to do, of course.

Now, that’s a bit more cryptic, but perhaps a bit more to the point.

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Hey Daredevil. You’re right and wrong at the same time. The type of training you’re talking about is necesary to build new skills. I’m going through it right now in Shuai Chiao. Work, work, work just to get minimal progress.

I can tell you from my Taiji experience though, once you get it, you pretty much got it. It really doesn’t take much to maintain skill. I haven’t pushed with Taiji people in about a year. I still have my Tui Shou skills. It just becomes a part of you. Just like eventually, I’ll have touch and throw ability. Right now, I can’t even get the throws right. I haven’t built them into me yet.

I guess it’s really your choice at which point you want to stop the psycho training and go on a permanent maintenance schedule. Until then, you’ll have periods of intense ballz out training to build skill. You’ll also have periods where you just go on maintenance and don’t do too much at all.

Just train as hard as you can as long as you can. Eventually, you’ll just be unable to do it like that. Your mind will give out and you’ll need a break. Then, one day, you’ll just get a bug up your azz to train like a maniac again.

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Instead of b!tching about it…

Ok, fair enough Daredevil…Ya got me :slight_smile:

You just don’t know how many times I’ve heard "(Insert art here) just isn’t as deep nor does it require as much dedication as (insert art here.)

Of course, I guess it’s tit for tat… how many times must we listen to Ralek :rolleyes:

As to what it takes to be good at MMA–well, I’m an amateur. I plan on competing sometime this coming fall, barring injury. I also plan on competing at the Pan-Ams and the Worlds for Brazilian Jiujitsu. Along with the Gracie Nationals, which I am skipping because of scheduling conflicts, these are probably the “biggest” tournaments for BJJ. I offer only my experience below, as I have no other stuff to offer :slight_smile:

I have a schedule in which I work 7 days straight for 12 hours a day, and then have a week completely off.

When I work days, I am unable to attend formal training. I shadow box and do bag work for 30-40 minutes. Then I do push-ups and ab work of various different sorts, and gi pullups (like towel pull-ups), working with a rough “ladder” type routine for the pullups. (thank you Pavel)

I then do a 5lbs heavy rope workout usually consisting of about 6 rounds of 30 to 45 seconds on, 30 seconds off.

I typically do that 5-6 days out of those seven.

When I work nights, I am unable to attend boxing, but I attend BJJ before work for around 2 hours, six days a week. While at work, I get an hour at night to work out. I do some shadow boxing, the gi pull ups and the heavy rope work.

On my weeks off, I attend boxing for 1.5 hours, which is generally gruelling (but fun), and later on in the day, I go to BJJ for around 2.5 to 3 hours a night, and on Saturday, anywhere from 2 to 5 hours.

I haven’t done the math, but I imagine that works out to maybe 18 hours of training per week, averaged out. I don’t feel like it’s enough sometimes, but it’s all my body can handle what with work, grocery shopping, laundry, cooking, maintaining a relationship, ensuring my friends aren’t neglected and still trying to get 7-8 hours of sleep each night, etc.

Now, I’m training like this at the BLUE belt level for BJJ and some (hopefully) amateur MMA comps. I can only imagine what Black Belts or the Pro’s go through.

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Man!!

Merry - How do you have time to sleep? Do you happen to live and work and sleep and hang out all within a few blocks of your school?

I have to commute an hour each way to work and then another hour each way to my school. Even with all of that I only get about 5 hours of sleep a day and wind up neglecting too many people in my life.

Amazing.

Granted - I work a 70 hour week (door to door) and I get to have a 24 hour training week (again, door to door). I just don’t get to sleep.:smiley:

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Merryprankster,

Sounds tough, sure enough.

On another note, like has been said many times by a lot of people, I think competition gives MMA an edge of sorts … or I’d be reluctant to say edge, but a depth of their own. Training for competition, and training with or under folks competing is certainly a good thing.

Now, I hope to take my skills to a ring someday, if “only” on an amateur level and a few times to experience it ; the concept of training for competition and the competive mind-set. (Oh, and I would love to see traditional arts represented, but for now, before I can make that happen, I’ll hope someone else comes along first.)

But sure thing, to become really good at anything you have to devote yourself to it. I just have a lot of respect for folks who’ve trained themselves to a high degree in martial arts, whether it is an old chinese guy or a MMA dude at the Lion’s Den (taking that up since I recalled that old article that circulated around here .. excellent stuff). Respect, not just for the skills themselves, but the mindset that has taken them that far.

Okay, this is well into the level of babbling now. :slight_smile: