Northern Shaolin and kicking

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Shaolin Kung Fu
21

I am being practical with my well-being.

I am not saying that high-line kicks can not have merit but in a streetfight it is much safer and much better to keep your kicks low-line.

To me and many others that I know, high-line kicks do not fit in with the “absorb what is usefull” part of the experssion.

Its good commonsense in a streetfight to keep your kicks below waist level. I do not see how these fancy and offbalance high-line moves could ever be considered and taught as extremely effective.

In a enviroment outside of the training hall, when the stress hits and you are in a much different setting, these moves can get you beat up. The movements are telegraphic, they break up mobility and balance as well as destroy a much needed solid foundation.

Not only the above mentioned factors, but high-line kicks are tools which take a lot of extra conditioning and specific attributes to be considered effective and even then they are IMO still in serious doubt.

Low-line kicks do not need to be kept up in this way, the percentages for faliure of the attack are not as high and you still keep the above mentioned abilities of mobility, balance and foundation in check as well as a much more destructive tool in terms of damage and less telegraphic movement.

As for the Savate fighters and Thai Boxers you mentioned. Those fights are for “sport” and not for “real life”. They have a safety net incase they fall and lose there balance or get trapped or thrown.

In a sport you do not have to worry about the other party trying to eye gouge you or bite you when you get all wrapped up, you dont have to worry about multiple attackers coming to help out there buddy, there is no fear of hidden blades or weapons he can pick up and hit you with once you get tossed onto the very hard cement littered with bits of broken bottle and rock.

If you watch experianced Savate players “self derfense spar” agaisnt one another, you will witness very few serious kicks above the waist level, its like a chest match, fencing with the feet and can often times when you see two experianced fighters go at it, look almost boring when compared to a Thai fight.

From Savate & Thai I use there painfull and destructive low-line kicks as well as Savates nice feints, Panajackman is also another art which I incorporate which uses very brutal low-line kicks and stomps that can be used in conjunction with my hand skills at close range.

I would say that the absence of high-kicks in ones toolbox is considered realistic and practical and never a loss.

I also never bashed anyones style.

Regards

[This message was edited by Black Jack on 11-02-00 at 11:09 AM.]

22

I’m not in any way Northern Shaolin, but what the hell, I’ll chime in anyway.

I have been in too many street fights, but I have NEVER thrown a kick in them. It never came up.

I have only seen one kick thrown effectively in a street fight. Almost every time I’ve ever seen a kick thrown it missed or was innefective. The one kick I did see do some damage was a back kick thrown by a Hopkido stylist friend of mine. It broke the other guy’s hip. (Really horrible sound. It sounded kind of like one of the boards in a couch breaking.)

Big lessons I’ve learned here. One, don’t kick unless you know it will do serious damage. And two, kicks can do serious damage.

JW

23

dwid, I think you’re talking about the Mark Coleman vs Pete Williams fight. Williams used the same strategy that Maurice Smith used to beat Coleman, stop the submission and ground and pound, and bring the fight to standing. The only difference is Petey scored the KO instead of just the decision.

One thing you have to remember with that fight, though. That kick was in overtime, which meant they were going at it for a while. Plus Pete had to set up that shot. He didn’t just throw it out (like the Yvel vs Goodridge fight ). It worked, but like every one else said, there’s a time and place for everything

Valraven, I wish there was a thumbs up icon here. Oh wait … Hope that works

Jaguar Wong
www.superaction.com

24

I had the privilidge of sparring several NORTHERN SHAOLIN guys…they do kick high!
I was very impressed with these guys…I myself am not a great standup fighter…I use boxing( need to go to a school for 6 months to a year ) and THAI BOXING standup…but those guys were very accurate with their techs. I was very impressive with the combos…and interception method!!!

A

25

Taekwondo

I have a friend who teaches “Classcal” Taekwondo. He uses his legs in ways that i can only dream about, very effective. Most of the kicks are low, many are used after a grab. Many off them are aimed accuretly at targets on the arms, such as biceps, armpit or fingers. also he uses a lot of limbdestruktions with the arms.
In his school he never teaches, because nobody wants to learn. All that peoble wants is the fancy bullshit.

26

Yes Jigja…that’s it, my fear of TKD…moron

How did you guess it Jigja…some pimple faced 13 year old moron with a 3 degree black belt in TKD handed me my ass on a plate…and i have suffered numerous defeats by gangs of TKD yellow belts out to cause trouble in the park on Sunday mornings…

Are you just an idiot, or are your views based on the fact that your voice has not yet cracked? “Roaring Elbow” has seen many blackbelt products from TKD schools. Years of kicking pads and “tap” competitions (point sparring) has decreased their power to 0%..they tap and slap- not hit!

Good okinawan Karate would eat you alive my friend..and ninjutsu, don’t make me laugh. Anyone who knows what they are doing in this art would let you throw about two kicks before they took your balance or smashed your limbs. Take off the shin pads,gloves,helmet, and foot pads- this is reality, not the jumping spinning back kick.

If TKD is not meant for punches, kicks, elbows, kness- WHAT THE HELL GOOD IS IT TO ANYBODY MAN? Do you really believe your kicks are faster than my hands? you are not superfoot Bill Wallace or Benny the Jet, and they used their hands too. Is TKD a fighting system or just an intermediate step to teaching you how to kick? Do it on your own..don’t come here and complain to people who practice real arts that their art is lacking in unrealistic bullshit flamboyant kicks…do you know how many TKD guys have come off the street and asked to see and spar full contact against our instructors? Many..do you know how many lasted more than 2 minutes? NONE. And this is the best part;

A) You won’t punch someone and go into your bow stance..

But you may find your self in a transitory state- going through the bow stance where you are powerful and very much able to take a low shot at someone or cut his target off for a split second.

B) You won’t hope for a left hook so you can do your best technique..

I don’t have a “best” technique..i have concepts and my entire body to use as a weapon..I don’t care what i hit with. It can be my shoulder, my hip, my head, or my elbow…have you ever felt any of these things bare knuckle and without a chest protector?..keep bouncing and dancing on your tippy toes…your legs will be cut down so quickly by you Shaolin training partners that you’ll learn the hard way why you should not stay in a style that you do not respect.

If you want to practice kicking..do so on your own time..don’t waste your sifu’s time with stupid expectations and wishes..you obviously do not want to learn how to fight, you want to learn how to LOOK like you can fight.

If you feel TKD is that superior, why don’t you ask your sifu to go one on one so that he can show why it is not. I have seen some real idiots on here..but man, you really take the cake.

:eek

Michael Panzerotti
Taijutsu Nobody from the Great White North..

27

Tis sometimes true that some Northern Shaolin instructors do not stress higher kicks to the head or neck or upper chest. Usually its not because we don’t like higher kicks, but because the instructor has bad experiences with people complaining about stressed muscles etc. It is also true that in many techniques that Northern Shaolin teaches, the form of the body is kept as tight as possibly, reducing openings to attack and increasing power.

To me, it is hard for me to believe that Northern Shaolin does not teach a wide variety of kicks, seeing as whenever I talk to people who are in Northern Shaolin or have seen it, they say that its kicks are very efficient and powerful and flexible. Dunno.

Underaged Drunken Monkey

28

You must be the most ignorant person i’ve ever met.
You are an idiot. As simple as that. I don’t know where you have seen teakwon-do fighters but you’re giving me the impression that all your TKD Fighters suck an ass where you live.

There are different styles of taekwondo and your idiot ass has been watching too many WTF fights.

let me go over what the difference are for you so you would get a better idea.

ITF (international taekwondo federation) produces fighters. You don’t see their competitions on TV cause its not a sport. The point in ITF is to kick higher then the belt and to basically hit with full force.

Good luck magically blocking a 400 pound turning kick or an 400 pound axe kick coming to your face.

WTF (world taekwondo federation) produces athletes.
what you see on tv is just tapin the sides of the body or the face to get points. That is more on the sports side of the art. They produce speed and quickness..NOT POWER

29

Bak Sil-lum or northrn shaolin teachs to extend the limbs as far as possible (hence high kicks) to develop the potential of the student, but in combat, kicks are to low targets so as not to expose oneself to easy counterattacks.

30

Final comment…

I’m not going to argue with you anymore on this..I think you are talking out of your ass and have a very closed mind..you obviously do not understand martial arts or kung fu from a tactical point of view..I could care less if the ITF or WTF guys kick for power..bottom line, they are still only kickers, someone who can fight in all the other ranges has more chance of survival in real combat..given the situation, wher he may end up etc.. Increase your efficiency in all ranges and you increase your odds of walking away from a fight. TKD can be “effective” when practiced by someone who possesses the physical skill and experience to make it such. Furthermore, these effectife TKD guys know how to use their hands too…they are not fools like you and think that their feet alone will save their asses.

I think that you are probably the bigger idiot here because you have chosen to study a system without the willingness to empty your cup so that it may be refilled with more knowledge and a deeper understanding of body mechanics and combat efficiency. You are unable to see past TKD and are looking for nothing more than a cheaper way to acheive the same means…you will not. I doubt very much you have the power and speed that the effective TKD guys have.., the good thing about other arts is that you do not necesarily need to be fast or powerful…just understand how to control space, lead an opponent out of his comfort zone, and strike to take balance…you will learn none of this in TKD. Go kick air and watch your shadow…that is about all your opinions and complaints are worth in my opinion

Michael Panzerotti
Taijutsu Nobody from the Great White North..

31

Once again, I beleive you received sever beatings from a TKD artist.

32

Nice try Jig"Jerk", you will not get the “Roaring” elbow to roar on this one, I won’t waste a further word on you..

Michael Panzerotti
Taijutsu Nobody from the Great White North..

33

I am a Northern Shaolin stylist. We train both low and high leg kicks. If you cant do one or the other than you are not a complete martial artist. It is obvious that both can be useful in certain situations. I’ve landed both high and low kicks. Anyone who says either one is not useful is just ignorent, and probably cant throw a high kick or an effective low one.

Temptation tempts my victim to proceed,
forward ignorence wouldn’t allow retreat,
you’d rather pursue death than admit defeat (Masta Killa: Wu Tang Clan)

Chris V.

34

LOL! I like this one. I train in Northern Longfist and I see high kicks all the time. I would love to see a TKD’er perform a proper tornado kick, where the kicking foot hits the ground first. Someday, maybe…

Also, WTF TKD’er do wear pads but they are going FULL contact, not “point sparring” A small point, but I figured I would bring it up.

Ok, I have experience with TKD and I have to honestly say that a modern TKD practioner is usually NOT a good fighter. They are good TKD “sport” fighters, but… not much else. As Rolling Elbow mentioned, the good TKD fighters go outside the system to get additional skills and add versatility to thier arsenals.

TKD has its uses, but to be honest with the forum, I am glad I am no longer taking it

35

For me personally, the ability to high kick is just to have another physical skill. Way back when I was a kid in karate my specialty was flexibility and kicking. Even back then, though, I never considered using a kick above the groin or solar plexus level in a fight, because I’d seen too many real fights where some “martial arts” guy tried a high kick (sometimes very decent high kicks) and got their leg grabbed and they got slammed down.

Nowadays I emphasize a more complete training approach, with more emphasis on hand blows, footwork, and low to mid-area kicks. I still stretch and can still do the high kicks but do so only for flexibility/balance training now, and rarely do them anymore.

There are indeed guys that can make kicks at any target work. They are NOT the majority. Even Hee Ill Cho, one of the best TKD masters and a super kicker, claims that as he ages, his kicks have deteriorated much faster than his hand techniques (which he’s also very good at using). And I’ve found it’s true myself.
Jim

36

Jigga:

I’m not trying to take sides here, but you said that the TKD fighters that Rollingelbow has seen must have sucked. Well…the TKD fighters that anyone has seen sucked. What other style produces blackbelts that any golfer could take out? Thats just my experince…and Rolling Elbows and countless others on this forum and others. I used to dance around how I felt about TKD, but I have to admit that I don’t think tkd is worth the time or money. I think it gives people a false sense of security and it gives martial arts a bad name. I saw the U.S. championship for tkd on ESPN 2. They were were all serious and shouting. It was sad. One guy finally took an axe kick to the shoulder and gave up. His lips weren’t white! He wasn’t shaking! He had a will of jello and he was one of the best in the country! I can honestly say that I could have taken both of these geeks out and I can’t say the same about two high wrestlers or even basketball players. Its not cuz I’m so good, its because they were so bad.
Because there are so many TKD practioners like them that I feel genuinely insulted when people think that I do TKD,
I guarantee that everyone bashing TKD has spent years doing it or has fought lots of tkd blackbelts expecting a good fight only to be disapointed.

After you beat the snot out of them they say, “no grappling” the after some more they say, "no throwing or joint locks, then Its, “No close range, lets just do long range fighting”, Then you beat them playing their own game. Then they get too tired and then they talk about stagegy and tend to some injury that you gave them. You then massage it out and let them borrow some Jow before they go home.

Sound familiar

8Step Sifu

37

So, your a big fan?

I dont know if I would be THAT harsh. I agree with the post but I have known quite a few hard hitting TKD’ers. I would be disgusted if I saw the display that you witnessed on ESPN2. I have seen a couple incidents like the one you had described but my school was not like that. I have seen people quit after having thier cups cracked in half by an errant kick.

I have heard a lot about McDojangs springing up all over the place. My belief is that this is probably to blame for the decline in quality TKD training. WE never point sparred but practiced take downs and semi-contact when we were not training full contact with bodypads. I have been struck square in the face by roundhouse kicks(With a mask and without.) more times then I care to count. In informal sessions it was free style so I have also been punched more times as well.

I have helped train fighters in competetions and they were not quitters. When we were training, we had some pretty brutal rules that some may think went contrary to the spirit of fair play. We would hit hard and fast, attempting to inflict as much pain as possible to demoralize the opponnent. When people are frightened and in pain, they lose focus. You might beat any of the fighters I have trained with but they sure as hell would not have quit after an axe kick. I dont quit unless I am not conscious or I am physically unable to go on. My partners felt much the same way. It is what the Koreans call “Indomitable Spirit.”.

I have known fighters that would kick you HARD in the face as the bell rang. Sure, he would lose a half a point(Sometimes a full point depending on the judge.), but the other fighter was usually knocked on his ass and didn’t have much of an edge after that. Dishonorable, but I am trying tio give you an idea of the persons mindset. In other words, he is not a pushover, but a dirty, hard hitting fighter who would do everything to beat you in a sparring session. An average informal session would be someone trying thier damnedest to kick me in the face. Easy, you might think. LOL, not when you are facing someone that can throw about two kicks a second and keeps coming, coming, coming… true, I can punch a lot faster then I kick. However, I kick FAST, very fast.

To continue with my TKD tale, I also developed strategies to fight in TKD competitions that focused on TKD’s weaknesses. The person that brought up punching or striking the kicking leg was dead on. I have seen peoples insteps severely damaged due to hitting an elbow. Kicks are relatively easy to block and you can just let high kickers wear themselves out and then… This all applies to competition though so perhaps it is not applicable.

It is my belief that TKD is an OK long range fighting form and a valuable tool to increase skill with the feet. It can develop awful habits but I have met some damn good fighters that were TKD people so I dont like to issue blanket statements calling them all wimps… which if you think about it is what you have called me.

I know it seems like I am riding both sides of the fence but I think this long-winded post helped clarify my views on the subject.

38

High kicks bad. Kicking is for knees and shins.

Knees though… knees are good.

39

Arioch: good to hear

You know as well as I that 90 percent of the TKD schools suck. I’m glad that your school is different. It sounds more traditional from what I understand about TKD.

8Step Sifu

40

high kicks are good!
only if you know how to kick…
if anyone watches K-1, you’ll know what i mean by kicking…

especially a guy named Andy Hug (R.I.P.)

when was the last time u saw someone blocking an axe kick coming down on your nose? watch some k-1 tapes and watch Andy work the guys with high kicks…

80 percent of the people who kick high aren’t trained right to kick high…
Trust me, i know, i’ve been to many many many tournaments and watched many on tapes and visited many TKD schoools…most of them suck…they’re getting tought by a 15 year old 3 degree black belt…

Does that mean anything to you when i say belt systems don’t mean ****…

but the 20 percent who know how to kick…good luck