As some of you know, karate is not strictly speaking a Japanese martial arts. It was from okinawa and okinawan used it to fight against Japanese invader. Given the close proximity of okinawa to China and particularly to Taiwan, it has been always suspected that karate originate from Kung Fu. The main question was which style of kungfu.
I’m, at this moment, reading an article about origin of Okinawan karate. It’s about kata called sanchin which is the heart of karate system. In this article it is clamed that Kanryo Higashona the teacher of Chojun Miyagi, the father of Gojuryu karate went to China and learned Chinese kungfu from a master for more than 10 years. The emphasis of the teaching was the sam chien (sanchin) kata of Ngo Cho Kun.
Is there anyone in this forum who do Ngo Cho Kun? If there is, can you authenticate this story.
Hi,
I do Tai Tzu Chang Chuan. The Sam Chien form you speak of was derived from Southern Tai Tzu’s form San Zhen. It’s pretty commonly accepted that the Ngo Chor guys got the original set from us, expanded on it, and it was later thought to have been the foundation of Okinowian Karate through the Ngo Chor system.
I hear certian Ngo Chor lines still teach a Tai Tzu San Zhen to this day. I have one of thier manuals, and the San Zhen they show is the first section (For the most part) of our San Zhen form.
Originally posted by Royal Dragon
[B]Hi,
I do Tai Tzu Chang Chuan. The Sam Chien form you speak of was derived from Southern Tai Tzu’s form San Zhen. It’s pretty commonly accepted that the Ngo Chor guys got the original set from us, expanded on it, and it was later thought to have been the foundation of Okinowian Karate through the Ngo Chor system.
I hear certian Ngo Chor lines still teach a Tai Tzu San Zhen to this day. I have one of thier manuals, and the San Zhen they show is the first section (For the most part) of our San Zhen form. [/B]
In that case, have you seen performance of karate sanchin. Doest sanchin still has similarity to your sam chien form?
To answer the original question, there is a theory somewhere that Ngor Chor was the influence that lead to Karate, but there is also a competing theory that it was Fukkien White Crane that was the influence. Both arts (I believe) have a Sam Chien set (as do many Fukkien arts).
The story as it was told to me is that there was a lot of trade between China and Japan at one point, with a lot of Japanese /Okinawan traders travelling to many places in the South of China. Quanzhou was a fairly large trade centre between the Chinese and Japanese/Okinawans and it is there that it is believed Ngor Chor was taught to the Japanese/Okinawans where it was modified into Karate.
As far as Tai Tzu being the root of the Sam Chien form, I cannot verify that. Tai Tzu is one of the ancestors from which Ngor Chor was founded, and within Ngor Chor there are several Sam Chien forms. one of which is the Tai Tzu form. As I said previously, Fukkien White Crane supposedly also has a Sam Chien form which is also included in Ngor Chor. So it really is hard to say which art originally formulated the first Sam Chien form.
Since Ngo Chor has Crane as a component, it adds credibility to the theory.
Also, it is possible Tai Tzu got San Zhen form the Crane style as well.
OR, it could be both South Tai Tzu, and the Crane style both got San Zhen independantly form the North Temple. I have seen that theory presented as well.
To be honest I am inclined to believe that Ngor Chor had a direct influence because I believe there is some Tai Tzu influence on Karate too. That would suggest the influence of both White Crane and Tai Tzu - which style has both?
According to Chan Kok Eng, who purports to be one of the surviving masters of Ngo Chor, the art is composed of five systems, namely Tai Chor, Crane, Lohan, Monkey, and that of the Fighting Nun.
Reply]
Tai tzu consists primarily of the Northern Tai Tzu Chang Chuan, Northern Tai Tzu Hong Chuan, the Southern Tai Tzu Quan (6 short forms. Where San Zhen comes from), and the Monkey boxing (Northern, and Southern).
I haven’t seen too much of our Monkey Boxing yet, but I am wondering if it is the same system you guys have or not.
I don’t know (I haven’t heard back from Jamie yet so I haven’t been able to compare notes :)). I have learned one monkey form, but from what I understand there are several monkey forms in Ngor Chor - based on the size of the monkey.
its also interesting if you compare not only sanchin from the naha-te styles like goju ryu and uechi ryu, but also tensho which is its partner There is also a form called “seisan” in the naha-te line that is called “hangetsu” in modern shotokan. They are all very similar.
i think i have seen (one of) the 5 ancestors saam chien… one of the main differences seems to be the stances. in karate there is a “sanchin” stance, which the feet are both pointed in towards the centre. Not unlike the wing chun stance, but with 1 leg forward and the feet are not so natural. if i remember right, 5 ancestors uses more a mabu kinda stance and shuffling steps forward from it?
The breathing is also very different, using a sharp exhale as the hands come forward whereas karate in the forms i have trained tended to use a slow exhale with tension as the body moves forwards.
As far as i remember there are links with white crane as well, as some chinese merchants who studied it moved to okinawa and taught there. They were contemporaries with Kanyo Higashionna and Chojun Miyagi and Kanbun Uechi i think.
d@mn its been a while since i talked/thought about all this
(I haven’t heard back from Jamie yet so I haven’t been able to compare notes ).
Reply]
Your not going to hear form him, he shipped out for Iraq about 4-5 days ago. He’s British military staioned in Australia, and his unit was called into action. He called me to say he was shpipping out in a day or two last Friday after noon (About 3-4 AM your time).
I think his Girlfreind is ruinning the school, and his seniors teaching till he gets back. You can send an E-mail, but ask to talk to Jarrod. He is trained in the Southern Tai tzu, and has some of the Northern as well. They are “Suposed” to be watching his E-mail, but I’m no getting any response form them, so they may not be. If I don’t hear back from them, I’m going to call in a few weeks.
if i remember right, 5 ancestors uses more a mabu kinda stance and shuffling steps forward from it?
Reply
Yes, I think the Ngo Chor does do that. The tai tzu does as well.
Originally posted by dezhen2001
[B]7*: Go=hard Ju=soft Ryu=tradition
As far as i remember there are links with white crane as well, as some chinese merchants who studied it moved to okinawa and taught there. They were contemporaries with Kanyo Higashionna and Chojun Miyagi and Kanbun Uechi i think.
d@mn its been a while since i talked/thought about all this
dawood [/B]
I was thinking
Go=five Ju=soft Ryu=tradition(s)
Dunno if there’s actually any correlation - I just wanted to get involved in the thread!
