[QUOTE=EarthDragon;1207743]Do you guys feel the need to leave your art or style to fill in gaps or holes that your style doesn’t fulfill?[/QUOTE]
Leave? No. Pick up anything from anywhere that is useful and works? Yes.
[QUOTE=LaRoux;1207815]Leave? No. Pick up anything from anywhere that is useful and works? Yes.[/QUOTE]
Would you look at that? Sooner or later everyone has a post I like. 
[QUOTE=EarthDragon;1207780]I ask because it seems as though TCMA are being beat up on these boards with the MMA guys and I feel my system has everything I need with the exception of some higher level ground work which i usually work in with other teachers in my school.
But if you feel your gretting what you need and it works then whats the need to jump on the MMA bandwagon[/QUOTE]
If you think one system has it all, you simply haven’t experienced enough things yet.
Because TCMA hasn’t been able to prove its effectiveness compared to other proven effective arts for the past few decades at least.
Bacon is this your personal experience or are you speaking what others have done and said?
Because mantis has proven its effectiveness since I was first introduced to it 24 years ago.
laroux
[QUOTE]
Leave? No. Pick up anything from anywhere that is useful and works? Yes. [/QUOTE]
I agree
[QUOTE=EarthDragon;1207780]
But if you feel your gretting what you need and it works then whats the need to jump on the MMA bandwagon[/QUOTE]
The NJSACB Unified Rules of MMA was a dozen years ago.
It hardly qualifies as a bandwagon; it is an established and persistent reality.
I started doing kenpo at 15, then switched to judo and shotakan at 16 till about 18. Then girls, bars, school life in general got in the way. Started training again at 32 in CLF till about 35. Another break from training for about a year or two. Decided to get my lazy ass back in gear again so I tried WC And hung ga, I liked the hung ga, but the school was forms only. WC I never really bonded with. I then switched to BJJ. Been training BJJ for the last 4 to 5 years (just got my purple belt recently). I missed striking though and wanted to spare, so for the last year and a half have been training kyokushin with the BJJ.
[QUOTE=EarthDragon;1207834]Bacon is this your personal experience or are you speaking what others have done and said?
Because mantis has proven its effectiveness since I was first introduced to it 24 years ago.
[/QUOTE]
Really, so name me a full mantis only guys who are nhb, vale tudo, or mma bigs shots. Can you name me even one of repute? Didn’t think so.
Omg every thread turns into this. This forum is getting ridiculous
wensu
The NJSACB Unified Rules of MMA was a dozen years ago.
It hardly qualifies as a bandwagon; it is an established and persistent reality.
yes I realize this but it has become like band wagon recently you must admit. why else are we having the same discussion mm vs TMA on every thread, ?
Bacon, first please answer my question,
and Really, so name me a full mantis only guys who are nhb, vale tudo, or mma bigs shots. Can you name me even one of repute? Didn’t think so.
As I said many times Joel used 8 step praying mantis in the UFC and was successful and won. So YES.
also ALL fights are not measured in the ring brother, my mantis has been effective in REAL fights, not just organized sport fights.
[QUOTE=EarthDragon;1207888]As I said many times Joel used 8 step praying mantis in the UFC and was successful and won. So YES. [/quote]
One crap fighter who won against crap fighters when the talent pool wasn’t that good. THAT is you answer? HAHAHAHA!
[QUOTE=EarthDragon;1207888]also ALL fights are not measured in the ring brother, my mantis has been effective in REAL fights, not just organized sport fights.[/QUOTE]
So you have t3h d34dly for teh realz streetz. What a joke. Vale Tudo matches have no rules. Nhb has few rules. MMA has only a slight amount more. It’s the best testing ground for skills, the only place you’re going to find opponents of any worth, and the only way you can show evidence of your level of skill as shown by your level of opponent and your fight record. Even if you use your **** argument the Thai boxers, wrestlers, boxers, bjjers, kickboxers, etc. still have a leg up on you because they can win against skilled opponents and in “real fights.” So they still have you beat.
Essentially if you cling to that argument what you’re saying is your style and the other TCMA styles can only beat untrained yahoos when you can sort to attacks like eye gouging or bottling someone because you can’t win against anyone of skill while fighting on even ground.
Bacon
One crap fighter who won against crap fighters when the talent pool wasn’t that good. THAT is you answer? HAHAHAHA!
dude whats with constant insults? why would call someone a crap fighter? are YOU good enough to be in the UFC? whats your professional record at ? so if you insult others calling him crap then what kind of fighter are YOU? less than crap?
Vale Tudo matches have no rules. Nhb has few rules. MMA has only a slight amount more.
LOL no rules? you seriously posted that? I shouldn’t even bother to respond to that posts as you are getting a little out of hand. shall I copy and paste the rule set for you?
Weight classes:
Lightweight - over 145 lbs. to 155 lbs.
Welterweight - over 155 lbs. to 170 lbs.
Middleweight - over 170 lbs. to 185 lbs.
Light Heavyweight - over 185 lbs. to 205 lbs.
Heavyweight - over 205 lbs. to 265 lbs.
Bout duration:
All non-championship bouts shall be three rounds.
All championship bouts shall be five rounds.
Rounds will be five minutes in duration.
A one-minute rest period will occur between each round.
Fouls:
- Butting with the head.
- Eye gouging of any kind.
- Biting.
- Hair pulling.
- Fish hooking.
- Groin attacks of any kind.
- Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent.
- Small joint manipulation.
- Striking to the spine or the back of the head.
- Striking downward using the point of the elbow.
- Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea.
- Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh.
- Grabbing the clavicle.
- Kicking the head of a grounded opponent.
- Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent.
- Stomping a grounded opponent.
- Kicking to the kidney with the heel.
- Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck.
- Throwing an opponent out of the ring or fenced area.
- Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent.
- Spitting at an opponent.
- Engaging in an unsportsmanlike conduct that causes an injury to an opponent.
- Holding the ropes or the fence.
- Using abusive language in the ring or fenced area.
- Attacking an opponent on or during the break.
- Attacking an opponent who is under the care of the referee.
- Attacking an opponent after the bell has sounded the end of the period of unarmed combat.
- Flagrantly disregarding the instructions of the referee.
- Timidity, including, without limitation, avoiding contact with an opponent, intentionally or consistently dropping the mouthpiece or faking an injury.
- Interference by the corner.
- Throwing in the towel during competition.
Ways To Win:
- Submission by:
Physical tap out.
Verbal tap out. - Technical knockout by the referee stopping the contest.
- Decision via the scorecards, including:
Unanimous decision [all judges pick the same fighter as the winner].
Split decision [One judge picks one fighter, the other two judges pick the other fighter].
Majority decision [two of three judges pick the same fighter as the winner].
Draw, including:
Unanimous draw.
Majority draw.
Split draw. - Technical decision.
- Technical draw.
- Disqualification.
- Forfeit.
- No contest.
Referee may Restart the round:
If the fighters reach a stalemate and do not work to improve position or finish.
I dont know how you fight but the fights I have been in and theirs a lot as I was a bad kid while growing up in an Italian neighborhood in NY, so I would do all the above and whatever it takes to win or get away to safety
It’s the best testing ground for skills, the only place you’re going to find opponents of any worth, and the only way you can show evidence of your level of skill as shown by your level of opponent and your fight record.
opponents of any worth? so your saying there not good fighter and tough *******s that dont compete in the whole world? think about your statement. Im sure there some pretty tough guys i prison whom dont compete you can find a worthy opponent in that environment dont you think?
Essentially if you cling to that argument what you’re saying is your style and the other TCMA styles can only beat untrained yahoos when you can sort to attacks like eye gouging or bottling someone because you can’t win against anyone of skill while fighting on even ground.
when and where did I say that? but let me assure you when your in the streets no one asks HOW you won a fight IF you won.
PS you can get your point across without insults to whom people you don’t know
PSS if your so bad please post your professional record from online so they we may see it otherwise you have no room to put others down for their accomplishments if you haven’t accomplished it on your own. be well
[QUOTE=EarthDragon;1207893]
dude whats with constant insults? why would call someone a crap fighter? are YOU good enough to be in the UFC? whats your professional record at ? so if you insult others calling him crap then what kind of fighter are YOU? less than crap?
[/quote]
It’s not an insult, it’s an objective assessment. It doesn’t take a pro fighter to recognize the drastic change in the talent pool of the UFC from when he competed. The guys have only gotten better and better in most cases. Now looks at his record 2-4-0. That’s not exactly stellar for any time period in the UFC and even less so when we take into account the talent pool of the day and who he won against.
[QUOTE=EarthDragon;1207893]LOL no rules? you seriously posted that? I shouldn’t even bother to respond to that posts as you are getting a little out of hand. shall I copy and paste the rule set for you?[/quote]
Yep. Vale Tudo matches have no rules. The ones from nhb and mma if you removed, the same fights would still be winning and you wouldn’t see TCMA guys winning. They can’t even win WITH the rules.
[QUOTE=EarthDragon;1207893]I dont know how you fight but the fights I have been in and theirs a lot as I was a bad kid while growing up in an Italian neighborhood in NY, so I would do all the above and whatever it takes to win or get away to safet[/quote]
We’re not talking about social factors, element of surprise, etc. We’re talking about a straight up comparison of hand to hand combative skills and TCMA has no evidence for being effective compared to the other styles which have a wealth of victories in full contact fighting.
[QUOTE=EarthDragon;1207893]opponents of any worth? so your saying there not good fighter and tough *******s that dont compete in the whole world? think about your statement. Im sure there some pretty tough guys i prison whom dont compete you can find a worthy opponent in that environment dont you think?[/quote]
Member Kimbo slice. Oooh he was such bad man. Then he got his rear end handed to him because fighting nobodies and fighting people who actually know what they’re doing who weight the same or more than you are two different matters.
[QUOTE=EarthDragon;1207893] PSS if your so bad please post your professional record from online so they we may see it otherwise you have no room to put others down for their accomplishments if you haven’t accomplished it on your own. be well[/QUOTE]
and again if your art or any TCMA has any fighters of worth besides one guy with a 2-4-0 record in a less than stellar talent pool feel free to post them up. As I said there are plenty of wrestlers, boxers, kickboxers, Thai boxers, bjjers, etc who I can point. All you’ve pointed to is one guy with a crap record from a less than stellar talent pool. Not exactly your shining star expectantly considering he’s your only example.
It’s not an insult, it’s an objective assessment. It doesn’t take a pro fighter to recognize the drastic change in the talent pool of the UFC from when he competed.
so joyce gracie dan servean ken smarock oleg taktaroff where all scrubs and not good fighters in their day? LOl anret you basing your weak argument on BJJ???
Now looks at his record 2-4-0. That’s not exactly stellar for any time period in the UFC and even less so when we take into account the talent pool of the day and who he won against.
you failed to post your record.
Yep. Vale Tudo matches have no rules.
again stop talking out of your butt and do a little research… From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia notice it says limited NOT NO RULES. your wrong.
Vale tudo (Portuguese pronunciation: [vali tudu]; meaning “everything allowed”, or “anything goes”) are full-contact unarmed combat events, with a limited number of rules, that became popular in Brazil during the 20th century.[1] Vale Tudo has been considered a combat sport by some observers.[2] While Vale Tudo uses techniques from many martial art styles, making it similar to modern mixed martial arts competitions, it is a distinct style in its own right.[citation needed]
The ones from nhb and mma if you removed, the same fights would still be winning and you wouldn’t see TCMA guys winning. They can’t even win WITH the rules.
thats a speculation and your personal opinion. not fact
also why do you discredit TCMA so… did you teacher not teach you did you pay too much money for calsse sand feel you didnt get what you wanted? or have you never taken TCMA
and just feel the need to bash something you dont know about based on watching TV?
We’re not talking about social factors, element of surprise, etc. We’re talking about a straight up comparison of hand to hand combative skills and TCMA has no evidence for being effective compared to the other styles which have a wealth of victories in full contact fighting.
element of surprise is in all fights. all TMCA and TMA TJMA MMA is hand to hand combative skills.
where do you think MMA came from? you seem to exclude TMCA form MMA if it wernt for TMCA there is nothing to Mix hence mixed martial arts, dont you think part of that mix has Chinese kung fu in it? if not your extremely ignorant
and again if your art or any TCMA has any fighters of worth besides one guy with a 2-4-0 record in a less than stellar talent pool feel free to post them up
.
I unlike you are posting the actual facts of someone I know and trained and trained with. Im sure theirs others i dont know about, but to say theirs none is obviously incorrect on your part and you sweeping assumptions and opinion mean nothing show the facts.
As I said there are plenty of wrestlers, boxers, kickboxers, Thai boxers, bjjers, etc who I can point. All you’ve pointed to is one guy with a crap record from a less than stellar talent pool. Not exactly your shining star expectantly considering he’s your only example.
[/QUOTE]
see above. I am proving your are wrong as you said n NO ONE that does TMCA can win or is any good. yet he won in the UFC using praying mantis , as you say crap record or not AGAIN quite dodging my question POST YOUR record. if you dont have one STOP putting others down who have accomplished more than you ever could. your beginning to sound like mouth boxer/arm chair martial artist. no offence, but lighten up on the crap talking and discuss without emotion.
[QUOTE=EarthDragon;1207743]Do you guys feel the need to leave your art or style to fill in gaps or holes that your style doesn’t fulfill?[/QUOTE]
It’s hard to explain… it’s kind’ve the Bruce Lee thing. It’s not necessarily that there’s anything wrong with the styles I participate in, I just go where the wind blows so to speak. I like martial arts. I like all martial arts. I do find that MMA and BJJ guys are some of the most fun to hang with… even though I hold no rank in BJJ, I love to go and throw down with them. In the beginning, I did pretty much get my arse handed to me, now I hold my own. I guess I go to where I feel the fighters are. If a new guy came to town teaching TCMA and had a rep for throwing down, I’d be game - I’d show up to see what it’s about. Not to be a d!ck, or to prove I’m tough, just to see what they got and to train with them if it’s worth it to me. I’m not about doing the super formal heireichy thing anymore since I feel I’ve earned my keep as a martial artist. I’m ok being a white belt again, that’s not a problem, but if I feel that someone is talking down to me - we shiai - we play seriously if I don’t feel they earned the right to have that attitude.
For what it’s worth, my personal “hero” in the martial arts is my Sigung Chung Ho Yin.
MightB
If a new guy came to town teaching TCMA and had a rep for throwing down, I’d be game - I’d show up to see what it’s about.
agreed I always check out other schools.
I had a so called mantis guy without traceable lineage come from Cleveland advertising and teaching 8 step . I honestly asked him if he would be willing to teach me weapons as i know none. he was all gung ho then after checking my credentials and who I was he said he wouldn’t know enough to teach me anything. I said you would if it were weapons again I don’t know any. I felt he might be intimidated and avoided me after that. wouldn’t even show me a weapon set and closed his kwoon 8 months later and moved back to Cleveland. I also have had teachers walk into my school nad challenge me. Im all for it, if you cant back up what you teach and preach then you have no business owning a school . i hate fat out fo shape teachers/shrfu’s
I’m ok being a white belt again, that’s not a problem, but if I feel that someone is talking down to me - we shiai - we play seriously if I don’t feel they earned the right to have that attitude.
I always consider myself a student and there’s always someone whom can teach you something, this is why even after 31 years I don’t feel master or pretending to be called master is in my vocabulary.
[QUOTE=MightyB;1207916] Not to be a d!ck, or to prove I’m tough, just to see what they got and to train with them if it’s worth it to me. I’m not about doing the super formal heireichy thing anymore since I feel I’ve earned my keep as a martial artist. I’m ok being a white belt again, that’s not a problem, but if I feel that someone is talking down to me - we shiai - we play seriously if I don’t feel they earned the right to have that attitude.
[/QUOTE]
this came off a lot more arrogant sounding than I meant. It’s hard for me to explain what I mean by what I wrote, but basically I read a book by the guy who invented Crazy Monkey Boxing. In it he described how he treats everyone as adults with something to contribute and he acknowledges that everyone has goals, strengths, and weaknesses that they bring to the class. I like that attitude and now purposefully seek that out when I visit schools. It’s like how you, ED, described the other 8step Sifu - that even if you outranked him, you respected his ability to teach you weapon arts. It’s that respect that you give to other adults, that professionalism, that I’m trying to describe. If a place or instructor lacks that courtesy, that’s what angers me.
you didnt come across as arrogant , no worries. you always have positive and informative things to say in your posts.
that author has the true meaning. the minute you think you cant learn from someone is the minute you rest on your laurels. and that’s never a good thing
[QUOTE=EarthDragon;1207902]so joyce gracie dan servean ken smarock oleg taktaroff where all scrubs and not good fighters in their day? LOl anret you basing your weak argument on BJJ???[/quote]
Did he beat either of them? Did he give either of them a run for their money? Did he even make it to fighting with either of them? And by. Comparison to today’s fighters they are incomplete fighters and would get their rear ends handed to them.
[QUOTE=EarthDragon;1207902]you failed to post your record.[/quote]
My record is not the subject here. As I said it doesn’t take a pro fighter to see that a 2-4-0 record isn’t good from any time period let alone from the worse talent pool of back in the day. And again this is your ONLY example.
[QUOTE=EarthDragon;1207902] again stop talking out of your butt and do a little research… From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia notice it says limited NOT NO RULES. your wrong.
Vale tudo (Portuguese pronunciation: [vali tudu]; meaning “everything allowed”, or “anything goes”) are full-contact unarmed combat events, with a limited number of rules, that became popular in Brazil during the 20th century.[1] Vale Tudo has been considered a combat sport by some observers.[2] While Vale Tudo uses techniques from many martial art styles, making it similar to modern mixed martial arts competitions, it is a distinct style in its own right.[citation needed][/quote]
[QUOTE=EarthDragon;1207902]thats a speculation and your personal opinion. not fact[/quote]
You’re right in that it is speculation but of two fighters. One is a fighter who fights in high level full contact competition and wins on a regular basis. One is a TCMAer and has never been able to win even an amateur level full contact competition or has never competed period. You take away the rules and you honestly think the TCMAerwill magically acquire these incredible fighting powers or that the full contact fighter won’t be cognizant of the fact he can be hit in the throa/eye/spine/etc?
[QUOTE=EarthDragon;1207902]also why do you discredit TCMA so… did you teacher not teach you did you pay too much money for calsse sand feel you didnt get what you wanted? or have you never taken TCMA
and just feel the need to bash something you dont know about based on watching TV?[/quote]
I have taken TCMA and I currently train in a TCMA but I am fully aware of what it is good at and not good at. Some of the techniques in TCMA are good but many aren’t. I don’t discredit TCMA. I don’t have to. It does that all by itself. Look at the empirical evidence. You and others go on about how good TCMA is for fighting but as I said not one TCMAer can you find who has beaten even ONE high level opponent in the last 20 years. Not one.
[QUOTE=EarthDragon;1207902]element of surprise is in all fights. all TMCA and TMA TJMA MMA is hand to hand combative skills.
where do you think MMA came from? you seem to exclude TMCA form MMA if it wernt for TMCA there is nothing to Mix hence mixed martial arts, dont you think part of that mix has Chinese kung fu in it? if not your extremely ignorant [/quote]
Really. Again my question remains. One. Show me one TCMAer in the past 20 years who uses TCMA for striking and grappling, without cross training, who has beaten a high level competor.
[QUOTE=EarthDragon;1207902]I unlike you are posting the actual facts of someone I know and trained and trained with. Im sure theirs others i dont know about, but to say theirs none is obviously incorrect on your part and you sweeping assumptions and opinion mean nothing show the facts.
[/QUOTE]
No you’re trying to prove that one guy in the past 20 years with a 2-4-0 record against nobody opponents from a comparably worse talent pool, one where the highest level guys would get destroyed by today’s competitors, is some kind of validation of your style and TCMA in general. He’s the only example of a TCMAer even being in a high level competition you can find and he’s not exactly a shining star.
[QUOTE=EarthDragon;1207902]see above. I am proving your are wrong as you said n NO ONE that does TMCA can win or is any good. yet he won in the UFC using praying mantis , as you say crap record or not AGAIN quite dodging my question POST YOUR record. if you dont have one STOP putting others down who have accomplished more than you ever could. your beginning to sound like mouth boxer/arm chair martial artist. no offence, but lighten up on the crap talking and discuss without emotion.:)[/QUOTE]
There’s no emotion whatsoever. Just cool, calculated assessment. And my record doesn’t enter into it. I don’t have to have a better record to tell you he’s crap by comparison even to the low level opponents he lost to. Why don’t you ask Joe Rogan about his mma record. Oh wait he doesn’t have one. But both he and I have been watching the UFC and other full contact fighting competitions long enough to tell you what’s what.
I didn’t say no one could win using TCMA ever. I said “show me a TCMAer who has won in the past couple decades in full contact fighting against high level competition.”
Now if Mr. Sutton had beaten any of the high level competitors even of the day I’d give you kudos and admit I was wrong but the only example you’ve given is a 2-4-0 record against terrible fighters.
? And by. Comparison to today’s fighters they are incomplete fighters and would get their rear ends handed to them.
LOl so the guys are mentioned are incomplete fighters? LOL you watch too much spike TV
My record is not the subject here. As I said it doesn’t take a pro fighter to see that a 2-4-0 record isn’t good from any time period let alone from the worse talent pool of back in the day. And again this is your ONLY example.
YES it IS! you bash other people and name call without having done anything worth while yourself, this shows small character in man
Quote:
Vale tudo (Portuguese pronunciation: [vali tudu]; meaning “everything allowed”, or “anything goes”) are full-contact unarmed combat events, with a limited
number of rules, that became popular in Brazil during the 20th century.
Bacon bacon bacon you just posted 2 times theres NO rules 3 times then you posted a descrption that plainly says limited. again your wrong
thats a speculation and your personal opinion. not fact
You’re right in that it is speculation but of two fighters. One is a fighter who fights in high level full contact competition and wins on a regular basis. One is a TCMAer and has never been able to win even an amateur level full contact competition or has never competed period. You take away the rules and you honestly think the TCMA rwill magically acquire these incredible fighting powers or that the full contact fighter won’t be cognizant of the fact he can be hit in the throa/eye/spine/etc
?
so you want to compare athlete that is a high level fighter and competitor to a guy who doesn’t fight competitively or on a regular basis? really this is your argument.?
I have seen a girl knock out a guy in a bar fight. she got a lucky shot, yes you can win in a fight anyway you can. I saw a body builder twice the size of a college kid fall to his knees when the kid hit the bodyt building in the throat with his key chain. I have sen many situations that the tougher bigger badder person doesnt always win, again the street different than the controlled ring. But please dont be so one sided you can fathom someone other than a MMA guy can win fights? come on Bacon, you cant be narrow minded.
I have taken TCMA and I currently train in a TCMA but I am fully aware of what it is good at and not good at. Some of the techniques in TCMA are good but many aren’t. I don’t discredit TCMA. I don’t have to. It does that all by itself. Look at the empirical evidence. You and others go on about how good TCMA is for fighting but as I said not one TCMAer can you find who has beaten even ONE high level opponent in the last 20 years. Not one.
wow paragraph of the thread. so you take TCMA but your not good enough at it to win fights? but you dont do MMA?? but yet your the cheerleader of th4 bandwagon? WTF LOL what happened to this thread???
[QUOTE] Again my question remains. One. Show me one TCMAer in the past 20 years who uses TCMA for striking and grappling, without cross training, who has beaten a high level competitor.
[/QUOTE]
never ever did I say you shouldn’t cross train, your ridiculous argument since the beginning is that TMCA doesn’t work and only MMA does.
I teach and I cross train so do my students I have BJJ aikdo boxing and of course kung fu anlong with wrestling coaches in my complex and we all train with each other
again I unlike you are posting the actual facts not getting my resuultds form spkie TV
. Im sure theirs others i dont know about, but to say theirs none is obviously incorrect on your part and you sweeping assumptions and opinion mean nothing show the facts.
Now if Mr. Sutton had beaten any of the high level competitors even of the day I’d give you kudos and admit I was wrong but the only example you’ve given is a 2-4-0 record against terrible fighters.
I can only vouch for what I knwo I do not unlike you make sweeping assumption statement like NOONE, EVER, NEVER when you say these phrases they are obviously incorrect as you cant know about every fight all over the world.
its like when the say champion of the world, or world title… yet the guy only fights in the US its all media hype BS.
again I thin oyur watching to much ultimate fighter and spike TV.
PS iif you train TCMA and it doest work as you say why are you still training it?
Please try to communicate with some respect for each other.
-Bacon. you’re being a troll and you know it.
-everyone else, stop feeding him.
That is all.