Hello to all that argue about Simon, TKF< kempo etc.
I will not tell anyone about how TKF practices business. I have never trained at a TKF club. But I will tell you this, I am a 2nd generation student of Simons lineage. And anyone who has doubts about what they are learning, and how effective it is is probably spending more time looking at themselves, then at there training, and techniques.
My Instructor trained at Simons Kung Fu in Calgary and Edmonton in the 1970’s. Master Trevor Higgs was the Manager of the Calgary club. He was my Instructors teacher. Master Higgs is a phenomenal Martial artist I have trained with him myself. There are 3 black belts who are true products of Master Higgs.(who by the way trained directly under Simon himself. My instructor watched Master Simon and Master Higgs spar) These 3 black belts have taken multiple Black belt tournament grandchampionships. I am a 2nd degree black belt under one of these men, and have taken numerous top placings in tournaments as have all of our students. The Moo kempo system as it was called in the 70’s is a very solid foundation. I have Trained it along with other arts, it compliments the other arts very well. Anyone who thinks they have a pure traditional system that is the end all be all is brainwashed. There is good things to come from all systems. So to say that the system has flaws, duh. Which one does not. Cross training is a must. Simon started doing that way back when. His system is mixed. In the 60’s his art was called budo-ryu kempo. I have seen it on programs from USA Tournaments in the ( this program was from the 60’s I beleive or early 70’s) Simons Budo- ryu kempo. It was Japanese. Him and Parker were partners in the tournament. Master Hilbig was the tournament secretary/ treasurer.
If people want to condemn the business practices that is fine. I know that the way TKF (SImons Kung Fu) runs has always had questionable business tactics. But dont confuse the business with the art.
There was definetly a chinese influence added to his system, I also train a southern Chinese eagle and Mantis system called Tai Liu chuan fa. There is definitly some Chinese influence on some of the kempo techniques. Simons system is extensive. There are many arts in it.
In our club because we train Moo kempo, 5 animals shaolin, Tai Liu chuan fa, Kali, Ninja ryu jiu-jitsu, Kickboxing and sport karate, we have many differnt angles to teach someone from. I have been involved in the arts for 17 years, have alo studied Shotokan. I can teach you a single system for a month the say, okay now here is a totally different way of doing things. Just because someone can teach you a different way(even if its within the same school) does not mean the last one is wrong. Ideally someone should train the basics of kempo for a couple of years and then be taught advanced kung fu. Advanced techniques can be way different. But that does not make what you learned previously wrong. Anyone who does not understand this concept had better spend a few more years training before they argue about the arts. Complain about the business end of it if you want. But I know the products of Simons system are very good artists. At least those who train hard are.
There are many schools that I know of that dont want there students to go anywhere else, if you train somewhere else keep it to yourself. If you feel the price is to high go somewhere else. But please leave the effectiveness of the system alone. If you dont think it works. Train harder.
Besides a large portion of shaolin history is pure conjecture anyway. Most records have been destroyed. Who knows the whole truth, noone.
As for Simon noone will ever know the whole story. Noone did, or does.
Hello Sifu Shawn. I am wondering what your lengthy post is in reponse too ? Perhaps you just wanted to clear the air as it were ?
I too have trained under SKF Studios in fact I started my martials arts training during the early 70’s at the SKF at 1050 Kingsway Street in Vancouver, B.C. (funny that I should remember the address after all these years). As I remember it one of my instructors was a Trevor Higgs who was notable to me because of his extra-ordinary kicking abilities. He was capable of a flying, spinning, reverse side-kick as well as many other similar and just as difficult to achieve kicks. To this day I still smile at the memory he was truly a martial acrobat. Back the instructors traded places between branches. The Senior instructor at that Kingsway club was one Wayne Thomas. Now if you have in fact been around as long as you say then you will recodnize his name as well. In 1981 he opened up his own shop (I think he split from SKF) at 25th & Fraser after which I lost track of him.
By the way it was not “Moo Kempo” as you state it was “Moo Pai Kempo” I am certain I have an old faded patch somewhere ? Golden Fist in the center surrounded by dragons – I had to do push ups once for calling it “Moo Kempo” (maybe you ought to get down and give us 50 ? <grin>).
Almost 30 years later, I understand what Master Simon was about and what he was trying to accomplish. As for his organization I always thought that it failed him and what was otherwise a very good approach to introducing western society to traditional and ancient Chinese martial arts. But that is very old news isn’t it ?
As for the martial arts business – I believe it is the nature of people to ‘confuse the business with the art’ and I also do not think the general public will ever let us forget it either.
Things were very different back in the 70s as well.
Some Masters and systems last, some don’t. I think the ones that last eventually become ‘traditional’ regardless of their origins. Perhaps in 50-100 years Master Simon’s system will be revered as traditional ?
Curious, has there been negative postings made regarding Master Simon and/or his Kempo ?
ursa major “a very good approach to introducing western society to traditional and ancient Chinese martial arts.”
Excuse me I think I am going to hurl… once more what Simon does is not Chinese martial arts… there are well in excess of a hundred active instructors in Vancouver (if you are still in Van) that far surpass Simon’s psuedo Kenpo excuse for Chinese martial arts.:mad:
ursa major “Curious, has there been negative postings made regarding Master Simon and/or his Kempo ?”
I guess my answer to that, based on the system that I train, Is because people need to start out with basics to give them a foundation to build a more advanced system on. A couple of years is not a very long time. Unless you are used to giving black belts out after a couple of years. There is no way that someone can learn a comprehensive system in a couple of short years. You have only just begun at that time. Even when a person is certified to black belt level the journey has just begun. It also depends on what the person is after. Do you want to learn a system inside and out and truly master it one day. Or do you want to be half assed at a bunch of advanced techniques, so you can hurry up to the next belt level and have the belt as a status symbol. It is better to be a really good blue belt then a mediocre black belt, at least that is my opinion. I would like to know what you think. This is only my opinion.
There are certainly some systems that go right into fancy techniques, and give no true foundation. Very few people can take fancy advanced training right off the hop, and use it to intelligently defend themselves. There are some, who have that natural ability though.
Sifu Shawn
I will talk to you more soon. That is neat that you know Master Higgs. Yes he is known for his kicking ability. Totally. I have a couple of questions for you but I am in a rush right now hopefully later tonight or tommorow I will post the questions and await your reply
sifu Shawn
i guess why i was perplexed by the statement was because kempo( if i’m correct) is japanese, kung fu is obviously chinese. for the most part i believe that japanese arts are more linear, and chinese arts for the most part more circular( of course i know there hundreds of styles so my statement is rather broad). the statement of learning kempo before more “advanced " kung fu to me is the same as saying " for me to teach you how to play hockey, you need to spend a few years playing baseball”. it just doesnt seem to make sense to me. in fact the people that i have seen come from japanese, or korean based arts into “kung fu” have had to really work hard to “loosen up” and relax. more so than a person with no experience at all. it is however, easier to go from one kung fu style to another.
2-" I am a 2nd degree black belt under one of these men, and have taken numerous top placings in tournaments as have all of our students."
buddy… Olaf Simons students arent ALLOWED to enter tournaments as ur style is too DEADLY (what a joke)…
When i was still in edmonton doing traditional wushu i spared a few of his students OUTSIDE of there school cause they wont allow anyone from other clubs and it was easy to notice they lack anything except money and time to waste If Simons boys are such tuff sh!t then hed go to the tournaments in alberta wouldnt he? just my thoughts once again
First we do do compete in tournaments. I am not a student of TKF. My instructor quit many years ago. He was trained however, by Master higgs (one of Simonds head instrucors at the time) TKFs students may not any longer enter into tournaments but they used to. Simon and Parker ran one together , remember. What there direct involvement was together seems a bit shrouded in mystery or lost to history, but the fact that they worked together is undisputed. Master Higgs would go to the states to compete in Simons Tournament team. This is in th 60’s and 70’s. Another one of Simons students, fellow named Blair Orr, actually fought (and lost ) against Joe Lewis. And since you brought Alberta. Let me give you a little info ,Black Dragon kempo ran by Sensei Gil Laffanasie in Calgary AB is a descendat of the Simon System, Sensei Gil and his club kick ass. Sensei Brian Parks club ( the name of his school slips my mind at the moment) always do very well in tournaments. Another Decendant of the Simon system. Sifu Ed Bruneau and the Chinese Boxing Connection, also decsendants of Simons System, awesome in competitions. Master Dwight Scheers club, again awesome tournament record, Simons descendant. None of these clubs is affiliated with TKF. But they teach the kempo as part of there curriculum. I am not saying anything about the TKF schools, or how they are run now. The system as it was taught years ago, and is still trained by those that were there and made it to black belt level, is a good system. Call it Japanese if you want I am not didputing that. I dont care where something came from if it is effective. I dont beleive Simons system all came from one source anyways. It seems you read what you read , and hear what you want. If you are a tournament fighter in Alberta you will know these clubs and there instructors, and you will know how they do.
All the above systems have incorporated other arts into there curriculum as well. But all were trained by Simon himself, or trained by Master Higgs.
I will say nothing about TKF. Because I do not deal with their clubs. You are right that TKF clubs do not now compete in tournments though. They do not.
I do not even know what TKF teaches now is the same as what was taught in the 60’s and 70’s. It is not important anyways. And the fact that they do not compete does not mean they are not a good club. I know lots of good fighters who do not compete. There is a difference between sport and art.
shawn
I guess the reason I picked kempo, as the choice for a foundation is because that is one of the systems we teach. I like to give someone a good "shell " lets say. Good basic skills. Kempo, or kick boxing skills. Some Grappling. they are a well rounded fighter that way. Then start to refine over a period of time , add some advanced techniques,.Some people can pick up basics quickly and move on to more refined techniques. @ years was a number I picked because you are still a beginner after years. But I did not mean 2 years as a concrete number. It all depends on the individual.
And yes I beleive that the Kempo is largely japanese, not only japanese but a large part japanese. I did not know that japanese arts are bad. But they are certainly linear, like you said. And also you are right that if someone trains a hard style they have a harder time being able to move to a more flowing and circular form, such as Eagle and Mantis kung fu. But if they stick with it and can change from hard to soft. They will have an advantage. The club I train in, and its ideals are not for everyone. We are a full contact club. A lot of our training is geared towards combat sport and street defence. We have kick boxers, and no holds barred fighters. Also tournament stop point and continuous fighters. I mean no disrespect to anyone or there clubs. I believe in cross training in all types of systems. But the problem nowadays is this, in a lot of cases, if you can pay, you are a martial artist. It has nothing to do with how well you grasp what you are learning, or can you apply it. You pay you get promoted. I beleive in making someone a good fighter first. Get them used to combat . Get them used to getting hit, being thrown. Have them fight with people of different sizes and reaches. Learn what that is like first. A lot of advanced techniques work well, if you are fighting an advanced opponent, in a controlled environment. They do not always work against a guy 16 inches taller, 70 lbs heavier
and not afraid to get hit. Again, just my thoughts. I like to hear what you have to say. Because I agree with a couple of your statements. Espicially about people making a transition from hard and linear to soft and circular and flowing. It is very hard for most people.
But My point at the beginning of this thread, is that the kempo, as it was taught in the 60’s and 70’s is effective. Japanese or Chinese I dont care. the art has nothing to do with this new neo chan crap. And how or what TKF teaches now I dont know, or care.
The threads of TKF seem to be everywhere. Scheer is based in Saskatoon and Parks, I believe, is based in Regina. I’ve seen students of both of these people compete and some do indeed seem well trained. The Scheer’s folks seem to practice a more “shotokan like” style than what kempo usually looks like. The Parks students do the standard kempo stuff that one often sees on the prairies.
I didn’t realize either of these people had any connection to Olaf Simon. I expect that both of these fellows must have found genuine instruction under a master at some point. However, hard work can do wonders so one never knows.
What I find a little scary is how many kempo schools there are in western Canada. Most claim no connection to Temple Kungfu. I wonder how many of the instructors and founders of these schools were actually taught directly or indirectly by Temple Kungfu. On a good note, I’ve seen some kempo schools that are fairly respectable - such as the two noted above.
I dont know how many kempo schools there are,
But it is unreal, if you investigate, how many of the head instructors have trained in Simons system to a fairly experienced level.
Sifu Shawn
The Chinese Boxing Connection… is that the one in Innisfail? They were at the last tournament I went to. My fiance asked a couple of them what style they do. They said, “umm…we do both.” Whatever that means. Does anyone know what style(s) they teach there?
And I must say you haven’t convinced me on the learning basic kempo before learning advanced kung fu. Doesn’t it make more sense to learn basic kung fu before learning advanced kung fu? Just my two cents.
never said japanese arts were bad. just different thought process, and to me, mixing apples and oranges. no attack. just curious as to why you taught in that manner. also i have nothing against japanese, or korean, or western fighting. of course they are effective, when the person using it is effective. i totally agree with your concepts on getting in there and mixing it up, too much of that is missing nowadays. you can punch air all day, it doesnt punch back. also, you’ll soon find out that many techs will not work on different people( dependant on size, speed, strength etc). i just dont go for the MMA approach, i prefer to stick with one. dont plan on having a confrontation go long enough for me to get much more than 3 hands in anyway. just my point of view.
If do a search im sure you will find dozens of pages on peoples experiences with Simon, mostly buisness wise, but a few I remember were art related complaints, not identity of his art which is obviously ever changing, but quality, and practicallity.
But to me your whole arguement/thread is moot point. Buisness and Art are inseperable when you charge for information. Even though not all martial artists are great buisnessman, being a bad buisnessman is very different from being a dishonest one.
From almost all accounts I have heard TKF is extremely dishonest. I dont see how anyone can claim the title of “his holiness” or even be a decent martial artist by my definition when he fools students into paying more money. If your going to be expensive be up front about it, none of this “pay to join the next club”, or “pay to spar”, or high pressure sales of books and seminars.
Yes there is a club in Innisfail and one in Stoney plain.
It is a mixed Martial Arts club. Kempo, Tai liu chuan fa, Ninja ryu jiu jitsu, and sport Karate and Kickboxing.
Basic kung-fu training then advanced training is the way I am talking about. The Moo kempo is taught along with kickboxing as a basic system. I think that a lot of people that have trained TKF in the last 20 years are not learning the same kempo as was taught by Simon back in the 60’s and 70’s. It had more kung fu in it, more circular movements, wing chun, some mantis but not strictly. It was also combined with Karate. I dont know what is being taught at TKF schools anymore.
But it is a good basic foundation. I say that because I have trained kempo. But I love the arts in general and there are many good systems of Martial arts that teach basic then advanced, actually that is the way all schools run. You dont learn the advanced first then the basics. If I made it sound like this way is the right way and the only way I apologize. It is another way of teaching, it is another school of thought. There is good in all systems, japanese, chinese. okinawan. There is even differences within cultures, Northern and Southern chinese arts are different in someways, yet similar in others for example.
There are so many arts that I do not like to limit myself to just one. But that is not to say that everyone should think that way. The man that owns the Chinese Boxing Connection is a black belt in moo kempo, a black belt in Tai liu chuan fa, black belt level in jiu jitsu, certified by the WKA as a kickboxing instructor and referee, and a 7th Degree black belt with the alberta kung fu association. The system he teaches gives people a large variety of training options.
Sifu Shawn
I feel if you master the basics of your style, you are pretty well equipped to go and learn the advanced techniques of other styles. It seems many stles have similar basics, so if you learned one you have learned them all.
Of course the are many exeptions to this and I dont feel it applies to all MA, but perhapes this is where they were coming from when the said to learn basic kenpo before learning kungfu…
If Simons boys are such tuff sh!t then hed go to the tournaments in alberta wouldnt he? just my thoughts once again 