Agreed.
Thanks for the effort to outline it so thoroughly.
What was Bak Mei’s real name ? or monk name ?
what generation ? which Fujian Temple (and thus or was it Henan ? His ordainer/Predecessor?
These are other interesting questions
Regards,
Shi Chan Long
Just a word of kudos for Ken Lo Shing Gwei:
He’s a very outspoken representative for martial arts and Chinese culture in NYC. He is the Director of the China Arts Council. Aside from wu mei pai, he teaches qigong, calligraphy and cooking.
“Waiting is bad.” - Musashi
Good question
I wish I knew,and will try to find out,I hope this and the last post helped Kulls question on books about this subject.
Chan Monk Jok Fan-yuen(Chu Fa yun) who taught Monk Lien-sang(Lein-shang) and Chang Lai-chuen
raises some interesting points.
The word “Jok” as in Jok Fah-yeun has been most misunderstood.It has been used as one of the two family names of Buddhist in China.It refers to the ancient name of India.
“Tien-chu” and “chuen-chu”.And “Jok” (“chu”) is the shortened form of “tien-chu” and “chuen-tu” on account of "chu’ and “tu” as used in the Chinese language of Han and Tang periods(202BC-907AD?)
It reminded all Buddhist that Buddha came from India or Tien-chu or Chuen-tu.
Another surename for the Buddhist is “Sak”(Shih).
It is the shortened version of “Sakyamuni”,
the name of Buddha.For example,the Shaolin Monks have “Sak” as their generic family name; and in their given,the second word indicates their generation in the genealogical chart,the third word is the given name;for intance,Sak Su-i.
As to Chan Monk Bai Mei,I don’t know,I would like
to find out though
The book Emepror Chen Lun. This is not a historical book that we can rely on. It is a story book that was written some time ago(actually 150 yrs. is not long at all, but rather recent)At 150 yrs. ago, 1850, Bai Mei, if there is even such a person, would have been dead long ago. That is why i doubt it can be used as a historical reference.
In the end we are only taking the words of people who don’t really have any evidence to show that he was one or the other(buddhist vs. tao).
But does that really matter? whether he is tao or buddhist? I have read stories that say he tao others say he is buddhist. I have practiced for many yrs. and my father told me when i asked him, does it make ur kungfu any better?
ShaolinMaster
Now that you’ve got me on a roll,please feel free to correct me at anytime,I’m here to learn.
“Shaolin” as used in martial arts circles refers to its origin at the Buddhist site on one of the highest mountains of China called “Song” in the province of Henan,China.
It was first built built in 495 A.D. In 527 A.D.An indain Monk named Buddhidarma came to settle down in this monastery,preaching Chan Buddhism fist of its kind in china.He was given credit for two developments,the begainnings of chan buddhism and Shaolin Martial arts.
As such fountainheads,Shaolin temple has become one of the most famous places on earth.
The residents and elders of this temple are chan monks.The Chan Monks produce their diciples in chan buddhism.There are some Taoist temples on Mt. Song who produce taoist priests.The Monks do not produce priests and vice versa because they are two different faiths with seperate doctrines.I should mention in passing that in chinese,there are three different characters referring to three different spiritual sites: “Chih” refers to the temple for buddhist monks(seng) and nuns (“ni”);
kuan to the taoist temple,and “mu” to to the temple of cultural princible heros like Confucius and Lord Kuan and other deities like god of household and kitchen.
Good point Kull
As I am not Chinese,I still do not comprehend,weather Buddhist,Taoist or whatever
makes for the better MAs,your fathers words are wise indeed,IMHO both have many things that have contributed to the MAs,My point is that CLC and his family was very adiment about their systems
Shoalin roots.
Perhaps this might shed some light on my point.
In the areas of martials the training differences
at the elementry level between the Shaolin and the Taoist approaches: The Shaolin are marked by the four concepts,namly,ecape,strick,hopping and control,whereas the taoist approaches,the conquest of softness over swiffness and that of stillness over excessive actions.
Having presented these different approaches it leads me to belive that Bai Mei is a Shaolin system(the topic).
As a footnote to the history of this system there is an interesting point.Before Chang’s family moved to Kowloon in 1959,Chang taught his system as a species of Emei Shoalin because his teacher Monk Fah-yuen came from Sichen province of china where Mt. Emei was the center of Buddhism and Shaolin Kung-fu,he named some 18 schools as sites
of Li-chuan Kuo Shu(“Sites of national martial arts for the commendable effort in preserving life”).The name sounds close to to his goven name(Lai-chuen).In this way,he identified himself with his school and reveled the starting point of Chinese Shaolin training in the strong sense of survival which is shared by all the members of the animal kingdom.Ignorant of this section of modren White Eyebrow history some writers felt free to present “White Eyebrow”(Emei Shaolin before 1959) as one taoist element of their system.
But you’re right Kull good KF is good KF,
I guess some people want to find out the true roots.IMHO,it looks more like Shaolin.
Is their discord between the Buddhist and the
Taoist?
Or is this just a history issue
BTW WingTsun embraces Taoist princibles
as its mainstay even though they claim
their roots in Shaolin.
[This message was edited by tnwingtsun on 03-15-01 at 11:34 PM.]
tnwingtsun
I agree with you that the techniques in Bak Mei has more of a southern Shaolin flavour than Taoist.
For example in my Bak Mei there are some opening salute routines for some forms, and I don’t mean just the left fist and right palm on top. One of the movements of the opening routine is called “Boy pays respect to Buddha”. This has Budhist overtones. What about the well known technique of “Woh Siong Tuet Gar Sar” which means “monk disrobes” which suposedly gave Cheung Lai Chuen a scar on his chin. When you say “woh siong” in Cantonese it means a Buddhist monk and not a Taoist monk, a Taoist monk is called “Dao Shi”. Of course these are all just names. Even the main body mechanics of swallow, spit, float and sink are concepts from the southern Shaolin.
However like in all things Chinese there are bound to be some Taoist influence to it. For those that has the Ng Hung Mor form, the 5 elements are Taoist concepts.
A good example of a near full Taoist martial art is Bagua. Even Taiji which many think is Taoist has strong Buddhist/Shaolin influence.
The techniques of Bak Mei may be Buddhist/Shaolin in nature but that still does take the image of Bak Mei being the invincible Taoist fighter which has iron shirt skills which is instilled in me from legends and stories that I heard and seen on films since childhood days. But of course as a kid I know of Bak Mei as the bad guy and I would want to be the hero, Hung Hei Goon who kills Bak Mei with his Tiger Crane techniques. Ah! the good old days.
Hi,
Imo this discussion is not so much about pak mei being buddhist or taoist but about pak mei history in general.
Reading this thread and the old session/ new session Lung Ying thread makes me wonder if there is also an old/new session difference in Pak Mei. especially since there are stories told that the monk didn’t exist and that CLC created pak mei as we know it today. But in that case he must have had some form / forms on which it is based…
Interesting to hear that Chang’s oldest son Beng Lum produced a book, Bai Mei, Chang Lai Chuen in 1989. I have never heard about that. Does anyone have this book? Is it still available?
Regards, Lau (lalau88@hotmail.com
no comments
great to see a pak mei thread with no flames…keep it up brothers/sistren
Chinese martial art history is problematic at best.
If we take the story of bai mei being from Song Shan Shaolin, then why doesn’t it exhibit any of the characteristic of northern styles? ex.long fist boxing, northern mantis, tong bei…
If we say moves are like buddhist style; i think i can make a case for taoist too.
Bai Mei movements that are done slowly to promote qi flow. Then done explosively. Similar to Chen Tai Chi?
Cotton belly-
Soft(yin) but hard as iron(yang). Taoist philosophy, yin yang inseperable, like cotton belly.
Tun to fo chum-
Tun- absorb, yeild (yin); when being attack absorb.
To- spit, attack(yang); absorb attack then spit. Hence, again we see philosophy of tao, yin yang inseperable.
If CLC did say bai mei is buddha or tao, what proof does he have? Other than him breaking a few of your bones for disagreeing with his view…LOL
I know it is rather unfair b/c i playing “devil advocate”, i think is the correct term. I say this b/c i don’t really think there is enough proof for either case.
TNwingchun- What does CLC naming his 18 schools after him have to do with Mt Emei?
Personally i feel Bak Mei is buddhist on Mon. and wed. when i practice sand bag training.
On tues. and fri. I feel he is taoist when i practice qi gong. 
Kull: you made some valid points.
Some have regarded Chen Taiji as being more of a Shaolin/Buddhist art which is derived from Pao Chui (Cannon Fist). One Taiji master, Wu Tu Nan had even gone so far as stating that Chen Taiji is not Taiji. However others have accused him of playing politics.
Tun, To, Fou, Chum are southern Shaolin terminology. The more Taoist or Taiji like way of saying it is the “opening and closing” movements. Of course the taiji guys state that their expression of these energy is more refined eventhough its similar.
Whatever it is all Chinese martial arts will exhibit a certain amount of Taoist quality to it.