Mixing external and internal martial arts?

Nei Jia: the Qigong and Taijiquan Forum Taijiquan and the Internal Martial Arts
1

Hi, my name is Alex, and I study Hsing Yi Ch’uan.

I also study Judo and Ju Jitsu, and have studied many other things in the past.

I’m really interested in external styles like northern shaolin, hung gar, mantis, wing chun, choy li fut, however, I’m wondering how on earth would I be able to mix them into my Hsing Yi Ch’uan?

In a sense I want to have my own style of Jeet Kune Doe, where everything revolves around Hsing Yi, but I still use things from other martial arts. How would I combine external principles with internal principles? My friend that does wing chun says that wing chun has some internal things in it. Anyone have any ideas?

2

Why would you want to do this? Xingyi is a great system and does not need wing chun or jeet kune do. Of course maybe you have a teacher who cannot do either justice..

3

Well, I’m just intrigued by external martial arts, and I figure, I’m still young, and thus, I should use my strength as an advantage. I’m also having a hard time generating power in my Hsing Yi strikes.

I’ve heard of people combining external and internal martial arts, and I’m curious on how they would do it. I would also like to improve my kicking, especially the roundhouse kick.

4

If you study Xing Yi well, you may solve many fighting problems or situations already. You may not need something else to “help”.

San Ti Shi is a defensive (centerline and your chest and abdomen are shielded) posture and you are ready to move and attack from your centerline.

You have to spend a lot of time to practice to keep your posture right in and between movements. So that you defend your vital areas and attack at the same time.

You have to develop your “internal” to make Xing Yi strikes devastating.

Judo and Jujistu are “soft” ways to neutralize the opponent.

Wing Chun has blocks to defend the indoor/centergate and Ze Zi Quan or Biu Ji to punch the nose, chest and palm or finger strike to the neck/head/rib side.

To do the others, your postures are totally different. WC is Er Zi Qien Yang Ma. JD and JJ are –

Your power generations/ Jin Gong are totally different.

That is why when fight, you change your posture/stance, your opponent is alerted about your school/styles and what you are about to do.

I am not saying it is impossible to do. It just require different settings from your body parts and mind.

Best of luck.

5

Hello,

If you are having trouble generating power then slow everything down and study the Path of Force inch by inch. Your mind will be able to focus better with the slow moving and then gradually increase. Any lack of power in your limbs will usually be from a possible weak link in strucutre/root/relaxation/etc.. Xing I is a powerful system and combining other stuff will leave you with Chop Suey!

BTW: There is no such thing as internal and external Martial art! There is either the hard and soft approach yet both hit your body from the inside! Rou Jing (soft) work thru softness to cultivate and Gong Jing (hard) start with tensing to cultivate base strength.

Best of luck!

6

"Why is it when someone want to pursue 2 different styles the reason MUST BE…“YOUR TEACHER SUX”.

I didn’t say that. I said maybe you have a teacher who cannot do either justice. It’s a common thing to be unsatisfied and to look elsewhere to “fill out” ones art. Relax.

7

My teacher and even all of the advanced students are very knowledgable. I know as a fact that my teacher could lay the smackdown on me.

He’s also Chinese, and his Hsing Yi, Ba Gua, and Tai Chi all come straight from China.

www.ctmaa.com

8

sounds like he knows quite a bit. have you discussed this with him? These boards are usually no more than a *****FEST. Good luck to you.

9

Yeah, I’ve talked with him about a lot of things, but not mixing external arts.

Actually, now that I think of it, external martial arts can be mixed with internal arts by:

Using the same method for generating force in internal arts. Convert all of the strikes in external arts to internal strikes using alignment and spring movement as opposed to muscle.

In China can you get a degree in martial arts or something? Because he has a P.H.D in physical education.

10

Yes, CMA is included as part of physical eduation from high school to college in China.

However, their course materials are usually composite or modifications of “originals”.

When they say Tai Ji, it is probably 48 forms, 88 forms composite of Sun, Yang, Wu etc.

Actually, Tai Ji, Xing Yi and Ba Gua are not Wu Dang Wushu’s.

Peace.

:slight_smile:

11

Originally posted by Jim Roselando
[B]Hello,

If you are having trouble generating power then slow everything down and study the Path of Force inch by inch. Your mind will be able to focus better with the slow moving and then gradually increase. Any lack of power in your limbs will usually be from a possible weak link in strucutre/root/relaxation/etc.. Xing I is a powerful system and combining other stuff will leave you with Chop Suey!

BTW: There is no such thing as internal and external Martial art! There is either the hard and soft approach yet both hit your body from the inside! Rou Jing (soft) work thru softness to cultivate and Gong Jing (hard) start with tensing to cultivate base strength.

Best of luck! [/B]

sorry ..but gotto disagree with the btw…of course there is…one is about body power and the other is about spiritual / mind power ( qi) …peace and focus

of course you can incorperate the 2 after yrs, but they really are different concepts

IE: taijiquan is a well known internal branch dui??? ( correct?)…it is absolutely not unusual at all here in China, to do your internal practice on rising, add a little cardio perhaps and incorperate some yang ( external) practice later on and / or throughout your day…then wind it up with some brocades and a little bw exercise…

I think food and a good business head / proffession / intellectual component is great grounder or stabilaiser interim , but by all means, practice both and grease your groove often.

12

Adding a little cardio is not mixing in an external art, just an external training method. Opinions are mixed on that.

Buddy,

For what it’s worth, your comment did seem like it was implying something bad about his teacher. But I can’t think of a better way for you to have put it so . . . what you gonna do. I though the same thing so . . . .Apostlol, it’s something you would have to consider. If it’s not on the money, no harm no foul.

Mixing systems is almost always a bad idea. You train your body today to move one way and tomorrow to move another way thus undoin todays work.

As SPG has implied but I don’t think really stated, Xing Yi is probably the best possible style to be practicing at an external level. It works really well even without any neigong. Your centerline is well protected and things like beng quan are not too far off from a boxers cross or a stiff leading punch. If you have just the external frame of Xing Yi it can still work all right.

Now training more than one style at a time has more possibilities than mixing styles. But:

a: Do you have time?

b: Can you really keep them clear?

There are only 2 times I think there is something to be gained from training an extra style.

  1. Something completely and utterly different and therefore not likely to affect the way you move in the other style. Like BJJ or wrestling when your main style is a stand up style. Or possibly doing some FMA weapons work. I enjoyed MT tremendously but to “mix it in” to my Baji I’d have to basically switch legs stand up and completely change my stance and tactics. ie just throw the Baji completely out the window and spar MT style. But even in that example, I couldn’t too MT for too long as it was clearly just good exercise for me and a usefull kind of “research” into how “the other guy” fights.

  2. Some styles have historical connections and have been mixed by someone who was incredibly good and purposefully mixed the styles creating something new. Like Luis Armstrong mixing marching band music with cheap booze and creating New Orleans Jazz! And the later there was Gershwin mixing Jazz and Classical music. If you think your that good…

Two similar styles can be trained simultaneously with less ill effect as well. I train Baji and Bagua. The Bagua body is something you would want in Baji as well. Many of the jin are the same and they even share a number of identical applications. But in fighting/sparring…again, I would do one or the other and not really mix. The tactics are just oo different.

13

which is why a solid grounding period is so neccessary!

okay.take shaolin si for example ( and believe me because not only have invertsigated academically, my fiance studied there also for a time)

internal practices are a part of the drill…but they do also standard form and style training daily that have nothing to with internal internal practices…

here at school ( well in Zhengzhou at school), so many rise to bagua zhang / taiji / brocades ( self included ) follow up with some body exercises ( bw or dynamic tensioned) and more than likely before the day is out will’ve done some external practice like some plain ol’ sanda or some wc and grappling / takedown jazz…

anyway…up for a laugh???.we all here know my shaolin gongfu is really really yibanban ( so so ) right???.directly prior to leaving my last school , I got appointd shaolin gongfu instructor…:eek: :eek: :eek: ..the funniest part about it though, .was that I really DID teach them some things…for crimineys sake…these days, anyone’ll pass for a shifu :stuck_out_tongue: :smiley:

14

Ahhh.
"Really??? Do you re read what you type or just close your eyes and bang on the keys?>

I’m not quite sure why you insist in the idea that your interpretation of my words are correct when I have told that you that they are not. Do you have a comprehension issue or are you just stupid?

You wrote::

“Why would you want to do this? Xingyi is a great system and does not need wing chun or jeet kune do. Of course maybe you have a teacher who cannot do either justice..”

Sounds like you’re dissing his teacher. If you don’t see it maybe he won’t notice either…

Once again you missed the point. I can’t explain it better so it must be you. Sorry.

“My teacher and even all of the advanced students are very knowledgable. I know as a fact that my teacher could lay the smackdown on me.”

Yes but so might others.

“He’s also Chinese, and his Hsing Yi, Ba Gua, and Tai Chi all come straight from China.”

Ohhhhh. Chinese. Well that’s different. Everyone knows all those Asians are inscrutable.

Then the black belt says “sounds like he knows quite a bit. have you discussed this with him?”

Exactly WHAT sounds like he knows quite a bit? That he can beat his student? C’mon.

“Yeah, I’ve talked with him about a lot of things, but not mixing external arts.”

Ahhh.

Actually, now that I think of it, external martial arts can be mixed with internal arts by: Using the same method for generating force in internal arts. Convert all of the strikes in external arts to internal strikes using alignment and spring movement as opposed to muscle."

Well that’s easy to say. If your background is external it will take you years to change your ways. It isn’t just a matte of “conversion” as you describe, but rather a completely different way of learning how to use your body. If you think otherwise your position is clearer to me.

Omar says, " Two similar styles can be trained simultaneously with less ill effect as well. I train Baji and Bagua. The Bagua body is something you would want in Baji as well.

Omar if you are doing WuTan stuff then you might think this. I’ve seen some good chanzujin in Baji but not Bagua shenfa. At least not of the Cheng Tinghua line. I have seen the shenfa in the Yin line.

15

Ahhh.
"Really??? Do you re read what you type or just close your eyes and bang on the keys?>

I’m not quite sure why you insist in the idea that your interpretation of my words are correct when I have told that you that they are not. Do you have a comprehension issue or are you just stupid?

<You wrote::

“Why would you want to do this? Xingyi is a great system and does not need wing chun or jeet kune do. Of course maybe you have a teacher who cannot do either justice..”

Sounds like you’re dissing his teacher. If you don’t see it maybe he won’t notice either…>>>

Once again you missed the point. I can’t explain it better so it must be you. Sorry.

<“My teacher and even all of the advanced students are very knowledgable. I know as a fact that my teacher could lay the smackdown on me.”>

Yes but so might others.

“He’s also Chinese, and his Hsing Yi, Ba Gua, and Tai Chi all come straight from China.”

Ohhhhh. Chinese. Well that’s different. Everyone knows all those Asians are inscrutable.

<Then the black belt says “sounds like he knows quite a bit. have you discussed this with him?”>

Exactly WHAT sounds like he knows quite a bit? That he can beat his student? C’mon.

“Yeah, I’ve talked with him about a lot of things, but not mixing external arts.”

Ahhh.

<<Actually, now that I think of it, external martial arts can be mixed with internal arts by: Using the same method for generating force in internal arts. Convert all of the strikes in external arts to internal strikes using alignment and spring movement as opposed to muscle.">>

Well that’s easy to say. If your background is external it will take you years to change your ways. It isn’t just a matte of “conversion” as you describe, but rather a completely different way of learning how to use your body. If you think otherwise your position is clearer to me.

<Omar says, " Two similar styles can be trained simultaneously with less ill effect as well. I train Baji and Bagua. The Bagua body is something you would want in Baji as well.

Omar if you are doing WuTan stuff then you might think this. I’ve seen some good chanzujin in Baji but not Bagua shenfa. At least not of the Cheng Tinghua line. I have seen the shenfa in the Yin line.

“here at school ( well in Zhengzhou at school), so many rise to bagua zhang / taiji / brocades ( self included ) follow up with some body exercises ( bw or dynamic tensioned) and more than likely before the day is out will’ve done some external practice like some plain ol’ sanda or some wc and grappling / takedown jazz…”

What? Doesn’t sound like real gongfu to me.

<anyway…up for a laugh???.we all here know my shaolin gongfu is really really yibanban ( so so ) right???.directly prior to leaving my last school , I got appointd shaolin gongfu instructor… ..the funniest part about it though, .was that I really DID teach them some things…for crimineys sake…these days, anyone’ll pass for a shifu "

Indeed.

16

Just because I’m at the birth place of gongfu being instructed by local masters of long lineage, please, really, don’t feel obligated to assume it’s what gongfu really is

17

Ethics please.

Do not go between the teacher and the student. That is a big no no.

OF posted some good points based on his learning. I do not think the Shenfa (menthod of posture) are the same between Ba Gua and Ba Ji, either. But hey I am not his Bai Ji or Ba Gua teacher. Let it go.

It is a good idea to practice Qi gong (Ba Duan Jin or whatever) and soft arts in the morning. And practice hard arts, punching and kicking bags stuff at nite. So BL is not necessarily wrong.

You need to practice all these. To me they are all Kungfu related.

Peace.

:rolleyes:

18

There are a few things I would like to clarify at this point.

SPJ,

As much as I respect Buddy’s opinions and his experience he is for too removed from being in any kind of position of authority to be able to have any possibility of coming between my Shifu and myself. No ethical question really. Just another opinion out there. I’ve never met Buddy or any of his students that I know of. Questions that challenge or contradict my understanding are a good thing and often give me good things to think about or even…bring up with my own teacher. He not only encourages questions but expresses concern that I am training woodenly or in a “dead” fasion if I don’t keep coming up with new questions. He expects, nearly requires, that I try to work this stuff out on my own before I come to class and then present him with my results or points of confusion.

Buddy,

re:

Omar if you are doing WuTan stuff then you might think this. I’ve seen some good chanzujin in Baji but not Bagua shenfa. At least not of the Cheng Tinghua line. I have seen the shenfa in the Yin line.

2 points.

  1. I am not associated with WuTan in any way other than some email corresponance with RAF and the very enjoyable small handfull of classes I had with Jason Tsou’s group who Count introduced me to the last time I visited my family. Probably not more than 4 or 5 classes with them. In fact my teacher doesn’t even teach Pigua and the Baji is pretty distinct stylistically. It is probably more pureform. It is harder and in my opinion more explosive with more emphasis on the stomping and the heng ha breathing than what I saw in LA. I may have visited LA for too short a period but I think it is because supposedly Li Shuwen integrated the Pigua late in life and Liu was his final disciple. My Baji comes down from a more senior disciple, Zhang Xiangwu and doesn’t include the Pigua.

  2. I was carefull not to state that Baji had the Bagua shenfa. I said

The Bagua body is something you would want in Baji as well. Many of the jin are the same and they even share a number of identical applications.

In my instruction it’s pretty explicit that Bagua and Taijiquan go a step beyond Baji in their level of sophisitication and particularly in the diversity of their internal changes. This is another area we differ from the Wutan guys who seem to respect Baji as being potentially jsut as fully developed and internal as Taiji or Bagua or whatever.

It’s not a slight on Baji either. Li Shuwen stayed undefeated in his life, supposedlu split a mans skull open once bare handed and on another occasion dispatched 3 armed Samurais in a flash. My teacher said if you can train it that well then the fact that it is an external style becomes irrelevant.

A side note about “seeing” good chansi jin. Ultimately it doesn’t have to be visible, does it?

19

BUDDY WRITES…

““I’m not quite sure why you insist in the idea that your interpretation of my words are correct when I have told that you that they are not. Do you have a comprehension issue or are you just stupid?””

You tell someone his teacher doesn’t have the competence to teach??!! And you say you mean no disrepect by that comment? Then when your called on it by more than one reader you again resort to name calling?!?

hahaa!! Once again Buddy’s ego and arrogance shine on. It’s no wonder so many avoid this forum like the plague. Well, back to work, enough time with the kiddies…

Train in whatever styles suite you. As you can see asking an opinion in this forum produces “Buddies” - not the kind you want!.. More willing to spew $hit than offer reasonable advice.

later…

***tune in later for Buddy’s response to this one!! haha!!!

20

Omar,
Well said.

The other guy,
“You tell someone his teacher doesn’t have the competence to teach??!! And you say you mean no disrepect by that comment?”

It’s not difficult to actually read what I wrote is it? Did you see the word ‘perhaps’? You insist that you understand my meaning when I assure you didn’t. Just so you don’t have to actually think too hard let me give an example. Say you study Style X. You learn how power is generated in that style but because that’s all your teacher a. had learned or b. was willing to teach you. Then you decide to find a style that you think is compatible with Style X. You come to Style Z, that may not have the same body method but tactically is similar. You end up with my scenario. Not you teacher SUX as you put it but rather that "maybe you have a teacher who cannot do either justice. It’s a common thing to be unsatisfied and to look elsewhere to “fill out” ones art. "

<Then when your called on it by more than one reader you again resort to name calling?!?>

Because of your insulting comment–“Really??? Do you re read what you type or just close your eyes and bang on the keys?”

Your inability to understand my comment is your problem.