Re: video
Originally posted by 18elders
Can you show the complete video?
I still don’t think there was any great execution of techniques but that is my opinion.
I feel the same.
I could if fa-jing sent the original tape back to me. Let me assure you I left in the good stuff. You can hear Lera ask if Milan is OK (about 2:02) but I cross faded the audio, so you don’t hear all of the other times. What I edited out is more of the “feeling out” and other breaks in the action. Does that make sense? I edited only for download/streaming considerations, meaning file size. The meat of the session is still there.
To be honest, I won’t even consider it as a mantis vs wing chun fight.
At most I can see it as kickboxing with around 10% of Wing Chun/ Mantis techniques.
However, seeing it from a kickboxing point of view. it was quite nice cause speed, time and execution were actually rather impressive in some areas.
I think some of you are not used to seeing sparring sessions on tape. In fact I think that some of you are not used to sparring.
Neither one of these fighters has trained kickboxing. Sifu Lera did do some TKD many years back. But I didn’t see any TKD in the clip.
The reason it looks that way is that
A. They are not trying to kill each other
B. When you spar, you spend part of the time working on making your stuff work, and you spend part of the time feeling the opponent out and learning about his moves. Generic punching and kicking and moving around is good for this, although I didn’t see too much of that, just a little.
I didn’t see any kickboxing. I did see sparring though. What clip are you guys watching? Seriously if you are unwilling to acknowledge the talents of these two individuals, you live in a paper tiger world of your own design.
Please post any of your free-sparring clips that look much better than this and have a clearer demonstration of Mantis techniques. The demo from Korea does not count as it is staged. Mantis vs. another style in a free format would be the most convincing.
The clip I offered up not so much for being a great demo, but because there is literally nothing else out there and that’s why y’all are running around with your misconceptions about fighting in the real world.
to Chinwoo-er: your observation was complimentary - but I differ with you about the kickboxing characterization. First of all
“speed, time and execution” are very much a part of Wing Chun and NPM. All of the drilling that is done should be towards these ends as well as technique.
2nd: where is the kickboxing? Where is the jab? Where are the boxing combos? Where is the leg kick followed by a rear cross?
“kicking and punching” does not make it kickboxing. It makes it a striking art.
The Fighting Clips
I am a Wing Chun practitioner but have also trained Karate, Hung style and Tai Chi. I asked some experienced Wing Chun people what they thought about the clips and for the most part the comments were similar like “where is the Wing Chun?, Where is the Preying Mantis?” Sometimes these comments do come from people who have not sparred that much against other styles. Often they are used to classroom techniques which are very stylistic and look good. Wing Chun people have found out through many losses that classroom Chi sau practice just doesn’t translate to tournament and free sparring skills. So this may account for some of the “Where’s the Wing Chun?” However every lineage, teacher and student is different so there may be some who could pull off a free style sparring match and have it look like someone’s ideal for the art.
One person who had seen a lot of the Wing Chun fights in Hong Kong said that the fights he saw were really not that different from the clip in this forum. He said free style sparring was really not emphasized at all. Perhaps Chi sau gives sort of a comfort level and is a very organized known entitiy whereas freestyle sparring brings a lot of uncertainty into the equation where contact reflexes developed by Chi sau play a mimimum role.
I remember using my Karate background to spar with a person doing Hung style. This person was very fast and did beautiful Hung style routines that were very fast ,powerful and precise. He wouldn’t take second place to Jet Li in his execution. However in a sparring match, a lot of that went out the window and a low percentage of what he performed in the forms coild be applied. The entry against a good kicker with mobility is not easy. Many Kung Fu people have found that out against the Thai’s.
In sparring I think it is not easy to have execution that looks like movie fighting or doing form work. Perhaps that is a fantasy.
Once we had a Wing Chun seminar with two top students from the late Grandmaster Yip Man. At least one had a very good reputation for real fighting. The other was very good at technical Wing Chun. One lady asked the two to spar. She expected something like she would see in a Kung Fu movie but the result was not that impressive. In fact it looked worse than the students playing around at our club. Then the one teacher explained that with two equal player’s the results will look like that. So when we see Olympic Judo for example, sometimes or maybe often it looks very messy. Only when a high ranking player plays with an amateur will you see the very nice spectacular by the book throws. The rest often looks like a school boy tug of war, half executed techniques, a mistake an messy sweep and then some struggling on the ground and finally a choke out.
In the early Ultimate fighting competitions there were various competitors who said they were from TaeKwonDo or one was a tenth degree black belt in something but none of that showed up in the fights.
A long time ago there was a famous fight between a White crane master and a u style Tai Chi master. The fight just looked like wild flailing of arms and a few simple front kicks. Eventually the fight was declared as a draw. Boxing sometimes looks very clean but other times also can look like a mess with numerous clinches happening. I think in actual sparring with hard low Thai stryle kicks thrown in, it is not easy to make a nice clean safe entry and then perform a beautiful technique as is taught in a form or some drill. Against a lower level practitioner beautiful movie style techniques from any style can be made to work. But against an opponent who can match your skills, timing, speed etc., such clean execution is very difficult. I talked with a fencing coach once and he said even the top guy get hit all the time but they just are able to score a higher percentage of the time.
This clip just shows two people working on their distancing and timing in a light sparring session. Maybe it’s the first time they played together and it’s nice to see such friendly matches. I think if they played more and also played in a learning environment where each side was allowed to practice their ideal techeniques then slowly over time the fight might look different. But then against a strange new opponent the fight might look the same again.
This tape can maybe be some standard and hopefully someone can give a clip of Preying Mantis vs Wing Chun that does meet everyone’s expectations. I would like to see that also. Until then I have to be happy that someone offered any clip and other than that watch other martial artists fight or keep enjoying my Kung Fu movies.
Question: did it occur to you who criticize that each practicioner was playing AWAY from the other’s strength? Specifically, they did not want to bridge and engage the other’s arms. A wise and cautious approach, given the trapping skills of both WC and NPM.
Sometimes we as complex two handed-arts go up against someone who won’t give us the bridge…and find ourselves lost. For this reason, my own sifu never comes at us in sparring like a Wing Chun man with his hands extended out in front - he feels we have enough ideas to deal with such a fighter from our drilling. What we need to do is learn to punch accurately enough to deal with a slippery fighter who tends to evade rather than block.
YongChun - great post. Lots of good stuff but the Judo analogy is perfect.
Fajing wrote:
Originally posted by fa_jing
Sometimes we as complex two handed-arts go up against someone who won’t give us the bridge…and find ourselves lost. For this reason, my own sifu never comes at us in sparring like a Wing Chun man with his hands extended out in front - he feels we have enough ideas to deal with such a fighter from our drilling. What we need to do is learn to punch accurately enough to deal with a slippery fighter who tends to evade rather than block. [/B]
True words. A lot of people just dont know what it’s like to fight outside the style and especially against fighters who just dont give out their limbs. It’s a different kettle of fish with unknown quantities. In my opinion its always good to fight against boxers when ever the chance arises (and not to kick while your at it).
A lot of Traditional chinese martial arts relies on reaction to an extended guard which is why it’s good to have the experience to deal with those who dont use it. Another major difference is the lack of straight punches thrown by most fighters. Many make the mistake of training to neutralise and respond predominantly to straight strikes which are in fact in the minority in actual fights.
Tanglang certainly does address this and has the necesary tools in its arsenal but in my experience it seems widely neglected.
The fact is, in reality you will probably never fight a mantis boxer (outside of training) but you will most likely fight someone with a rough approximation of boxing or kickboxing skills.
O.K , I went a bit off track there…
First of all: the post of Mantis 108 (now in the other thread!) is one of the hard but true one! And yes, maybe I was too polite to write down my opinion!
I confirm with 108 that it is a serious situation for the mantis community. And we have to work hard, not to get in a only sporting competition situation with our art!
@ Brandon: yes, it is an absolute advantage to spare with non mantis practioners, but: why not use kicks in a fight with boxers?
You have to check out, what will work best if you face a guy dealing with totally different moves and fighting theories! So, I will use a kick to see did it work or not, like I use grabbling to see if the boxer can handle that or will he be faster.
I spare sometimes with a amateur boxer and the straight punches were no problem. But the kicks were a problem for him .. 
okay, when he punch me, he punches hard …
For the video: I didn´t understand, why doesn´t the mantis practioner grab not ONE time? he got a whole bunch of opportunities to do so!
It was a nice but only a very friendly training video!
I look forward for Mantis108 videos! 
Fa Jing
I would just like you to know that Sifu Lera and Milan have my thanks for putting themselves on display and (inadvertant or not) opening themselves to criticism.
I know that this footage has help influence my ‘live’ training for the better. As well as the comments that it has solicited.
For myself, my opinion of the session can be readily dismissed b/c (like I hope I made clear in my first post) I don’t know the context for these two sifus crossing hands, etc.
To be fair, perhaps, I should post myself sparring to get everyone’s feedback. This kind of openness, though it can bring out the trollers, could very beneficial to everyone.
Mantis9
"For the video: I didn´t understand, why doesn´t the mantis practioner grab not ONE time? "
I saw SIX grabs by Sifu Lera. Again, are we watching the same clip? During what other time in the clip did you think he should have grabbed the other guy? Do you mean that he should have tried to grab the Wing Chun practicioners’ forearms out of thin air? I certainly hope not.
re: “lack of aggression” I think that shows great control. As I stated in another thread, there are two principles that govern any type of sparring:
-
Don’t get seriously hurt
-
Learn.
These two conditions were definitely met.
“Practice some techniques” goes under the “Learn” catagory.
“look like you are practicing your style to critics,” unfortunately does not make the list.
I have more to say on Mantis vs. Kickboxing, but I’ll post in the other thread.
[QUOTE][i]@ Brandon: yes, it is an absolute advantage to spare with non mantis practioners, but: why not use kicks in a fight with boxers?
You have to check out, what will work best if you face a guy dealing with totally different moves and fighting theories!
Bai Long.
You are right. It is a good idea to use kicks against the boxer but I believe sometimes it can really help to develop your other skills when you purposely restrict yourself. It can be a good experience, just as sparring with absolutely no hands, or other restrictions can be.
you also wrote:
For the video: I didn´t understand, why doesn´t the mantis practioner grab not ONE time? he got a whole bunch of opportunities to do so!
Although I really dont want to pass judgement on these guys (let he who is without sin…), I think I agree with you on this if what you meant was; that there is no Gou Lou or Cai in this footage.
B.T
Even though there was no sparring pads so full contact is not done for obvious reasons, they could still engaged each other more. Get inside and stick/trap/seal. All traditional CMA should have this ability. Take a risk of being hit. But sparring gear with full contact would definitely allow us to see more of their abilities. I would like to see how they do again but with sparring gear/padding at full contact.
I agree that the sparring format could have been better – but considering that this is the first or second time these gentlemen have sparred, and they come from different styles, training methodology and different continents even … that it came out well enough which is why I decided to share.
Thanks for sharing, I enjoyed watching the clip.
Rose colored glasses
Let me apologize in advance if I offend anyone with my insight.
The video presented is NOT Mantis vs. Wing Chun.
The video presented represents two individuals evaluating their own level of martial skills and experience.
In no way can a set of principals compete against another.
These two individuals have gathered the courage to challenge themselves by breaking out of their own comfort zone by playing hands with another indivual who has been socialized to different patterns of movement. Extraneuous variables such as vision, health conditions, experience, mental conditions, etc., make it impossible to ultimately pit the efficiency of one system versus another.
The principals and techniques we learn our tools for us to master, not for us to be slave to. Jon Funks most recent article epitomizes that point.
As Adam Hsu once wrote, “It’s not the song, it’s the singer”.
Study Damo’s Bloodstream Sermon…not the paths of others. It is only when we understand our own nature, can we truly understand.
M
Re: Rose colored glasses
Originally posted by Michael Dasargo
[B]
…
Extraneuous variables such as vision, health conditions, experience, mental conditions, etc., make it impossible to ultimately pit the efficiency of one system versus another.
The principals and techniques we learn our tools for us to master, not for us to be slave to. Jon Funks most recent article epitomizes that point.
As Adam Hsu once wrote, “It’s not the song, it’s the singer”.
…
[/B]
Excellent! I would like to add… Well, I have nothing to add to what you said. You hit the nail right on the head!
Originally posted by German Bai Lung
And we have to work hard, not to get in a only sporting competition situation with our art!
why?
Why???
You ask why we have to work hard or why not get in an only sporting competition?
For the ONLY sporting competition:
we surely will lose a lot of the art if we does! E.g.: why train techniques to the groin? Why strikes to the eyes, to the larynx? Why Chin Na at generell? It is forbidden on every sporting competition! So we will lose nearly half of our art. First only in the applications later than in the whole system!
Sporting competition is good to train TOGETHER with a lot of other stuff.
My opinion!
Do you currently do full contact shots to the groin? what about a full contact eye gouge? Have you ever really broken a limb during drills?
those are things you work while drilling. you punch, kick, palm, etc, correct? then there is no reason why you couldn’t compete sportively. You wouldn’t be losing anything. in bjj, I don’t actually break limbs -that’s what tapping is for - but I know that option is there. I don’t throw elbows to the head, even though I train muay thai - but I know that option is there.
if you understand the principles behind what you are doing, IMO you can apply it to whatever rules you may encounter. as stated before, I train thai boxing. When I fight american rules kickboxing, I can’t leg kick, can’t knee, can’t elbow… all of the things I love and train to do. That doesn’t stop me though.
In bjj, heel hooks are illegal. doesn’t mean we don’t learn them.
In judo, leg locks, spine locks and strikes are illegal, but yet we still learn them.