I meant no touch punch in the above statement. Sorry.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;921006]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlF937SmcUE
People trick themselves all the time. Those people would swear that their teacher’s chi was propelling them across the room. It’s called suggestion.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I’ve seen alot of Aikido schools that have devolved into this sort of thing. It’s actually pretty entertaining.
And like I said, my statements are based on personal experience and teachings from people I trust and respect.
I won’t make claims about the actual workings of Dim Mak; whether it is qi, magic, psychology, or whatever. I can only relate my own thoughts on the matter.
For those willing to do the research, there’s a lot of information out there regarding the neurological systems of the human body. Even if all the Dim Mak stuff with the five elements and the meridians is crap, and it’s really just ways of manipulating nerve pathways, it’s still effective. Why does it matter if you think of it in terms of qi?
Whether you believe gravity is an effect of an object’s mass, or you believe it is caused by a magical god that lives under the earth’s crust, it doesn’t change the fact that the apple will fall on your head when it is disconnected from the tree.
There is a very simple test for whether something is fantasy or not: have you seen it for yourself done in fighting against competent fighters not associated with the claim/claimant?
[QUOTE=m1k3;921010]Its called hypnosis. You believed (even if it was just at the subconscious level) that it would work, so it did. The people who do this are very good at setting up a receptive state in the subject (you). It is not a criticism of you, you were put into a position were an outcome was presented to you in such a way as to induce a state of belief in you. It is a common technique for mentalists, hypnotists and true believers.
When this people attempt to do this to people who are skeptics and don’t have time to prepare the subject the result is failure, although they have lots of excuses. There is a video in one of the threads of a hypnotist posing as a sifu doing no punch knockout and the random person from the class dropping in pain.[/QUOTE]
If I had been told what was supposed to happen before the technique was done, I could definitely understand that point of view. Unfortunately (for me at the time at least) it was more along the lines of:
Me: What’s the application of this technique in this form?
Sigung: Here, I’ll show you.
grab, poke
strong electrical-like shock feeling in my arm and along the side of my face
I wake up a few seconds later
Me: What the hell was that?!
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;921019]There is a very simple test for whether something is fantasy or not: have you seen it for yourself done in fighting against competent fighters not associated with the claim/claimant?[/QUOTE]
The specific example I’m relating happened during my second class with that instructor, which was the third time I had actually met the man in person.
It did happen to me personally, and I don’t think I would have a reason to fake it.
[QUOTE=m1k3;921015]I meant no touch punch in the above statement. Sorry.:)[/QUOTE]
Yeah, as far as I know, that stuff is still in the realm of Star Wars.
“I find your lack of faith disturbing!”
lol!
[QUOTE=Chazmek;921027]The specific example I’m relating happened during my second class with that instructor, which was the third time I had actually met the man in person.
It did happen to me personally, and I don’t think I would have a reason to fake it.[/QUOTE]
You didn’t fake it, it was real to you. As T said it is suggestion. The suggestion was set up to a degree because you were in a kung fu class that obviously does dim mak, the instructor, an authority figure, said let me show you something, and I bet there were several students, who had seen this before, watching with knowing looks on their faces.
So you were set up, just because the clues were non verbal doesn’t make them any less powerful.
Oh yeah, there are places where there are nerves near the surface of your body and they can hurt like a b1tch. I was taught some of them when I was in the Marines and received some training to be a prisoner escort. We simply called them pressure points and pain compliance.
[QUOTE=m1k3;921039]You didn’t fake it, it was real to you. As T said it is suggestion. The suggestion was set up to a degree because you were in a kung fu class that obviously does dim mak, the instructor, an authority figure, said let me show you something, and I bet there were several students, who had seen this before, watching with knowing looks on their faces.
So you were set up, just because the clues were non verbal doesn’t make them any less powerful.[/QUOTE]
Actually, it’s just a basic Shaolin class. Dim Mak isn’t part of the standard curiculum (sp?). It was being held in the gym of a local rec center and I was the only student present (private lesson).
Regardless, I would love to know how to give non-verbal cues like that. If that’s how it works, it doesn’t make a difference to me. It’s a neat trick no matter how you look at it.
[QUOTE=m1k3;921042]Oh yeah, there are places where there are nerves near the surface of your body and they can hurt like a b1tch. I was taught some of them when I was in the Marines and received some training to be a prisoner escort. We simply called them pressure points and pain compliance.[/QUOTE]
So the marines are teaching super secret Dim Mak!? :eek:
Yeah, I don’t think there’s anything special about it. It just takes training.
Answer questions
How do you know they work? Well simple. You build build. No need to test them on people. Stack six to eight bricks. When your Iron Palms is strong enough to smash them all. Then you know you have that ability to hit someone on top of the head or the back of head with that same force. As for Bui Tze strikes. When your able to thrust your fingers through a heavy bag of sand or punch your fist through a punching bag and leave a hole. You know you can do serious damage. What we call demostrations of people breaking things with their strength are really just a guage to see where your progress is. No need to hit someone in the face with an inch punch to see if you got enough power. If you have telephone book on somes chest then you measure your progress by hitting the phone book with causing serious damage. Why go around killing people…thats not the intent for inquiring this skill.
As for practice. I practice shooting my Nine at a target. Not at people. No need to shoot people. Thats what targets are for. As for practicing with a knife. I can use a rubber or wooden knife. No need to really stab my training partner or stranger. No need to use my gun,knife, or WC deadly techniques unless I am in sitituation where I can’t reach my nine or shot gun to kill the person who is trying to kill me. But why buy a gun? Just in case! why buy knives? just in case. Why train lethal techniques just in case I am in life or death sitiutation me against them. its me or them. i choose me!
I know if hit someone hard enough in the back head with the torque punch it will kill them. I don’t do that though. I have had no need to do. I learn how to rake the face and rake the throat but I haven’t done it to my training partners. No need to. You acquire the skill for just in case. But don’t go around using it on people…
i know how to chain punch people in the nose until it bleeds. But do i do strangers or training partner like that?
[QUOTE=m1k3;920953]The problem with deadly techniques is how do you know they work and how do you train them.
If someone says strike A against body part B will kill someone how do you know it will work? Can’t go around killing your training partners and most places frown on killing strangers.
But, you can train good fundamentals, things that work because you know they work. A punch to the face hurts, because you have felt it and have done it to others. An armbar works because you have felt someone take you arm right to the edge of breaking and you have done it to others. A choke works because in rolling you have probably choked someone until they saw stars or passed out and have had the same done to you.
This goes for a lot of your basic techniques. They work, you know they work and there is a high percentage you can pull them off.
Worry about learning deadly techniques which usually are low percentage, dangerous or impossible to train and questionable from a legal standpoint is time that could be spent working on something that you know works.
Just my 2 cents.[/QUOTE]
Okay Chazmek I stand corrected!~~~ Thankyou…
how would snake not work with out if pressure points strikes don’t work…what do you need for pressure point strikes to work???
[QUOTE=Chazmek;920963]Dim Mak is Cantonese
The Mandarin is Dien Xue.
Japanese styles have something similar…I think the word is Atemi…I could be wrong…
Regardless, it’s nothing magical or mythical.
The body works in certain ways, and there are many techniques that are designed to disrupt the body’s functions.
Snake would be a nearly useless style if pressure point strikes did not work.[/QUOTE]
your right WC is also not all about killing. But there is small aspect concerning killing techniques and conditioning needed to so in case your in fight to the death against some gangster,robbery,burlar,rapist,assasin,drug dealer or thug. But know its not just about killing your correct. I am simply illuminating an aspect few people seem to mention!
[QUOTE=Chazmek;920966]“Dim Mak” isn’t all about killing strikes and deadly stuff.
It’s about using pressure points to decrease your opponent’s ability to react effectively. Many of the techniques can be done in controlled sparring and used safely while still having their intended effect. Yes they can cause serious health issues, but even in a real fight I would hesitate to use any of the strikes that are said to be “deadly”. I’ve never tried them, so I don’t know for sure if they work. But I’ve read enough literature on the subject, and been taught by people that I respect, so I’m not about to test it on people I care about.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Yoshiyahu;921049]how would snake not work with out if pressure points strikes don’t work…what do you need for pressure point strikes to work???[/QUOTE]
From my understanding, Snake does not rely on hard bludgeoning techniques in order to neutralize an opponent. Strikes are aimed at specific parts of the body that cause unconscious reflex reactions (like hitting your knee with the rubber thingy at the doctor’s office), intense pain or numbness (your “funny bone” or ulnar nerve is a good example), or knock-outs (like I described earlier). It will still use throws and certain types of chin’na, and the basic levels still used closed-fist strikes. But it would be really difficult to win a fight using the soft, jabby pokes that Snake is known for if the points you were hitting didn’t have any effect. Sure you can still poke someone in the eyes or the throat or the groin, but if a style only has a few viable targets that it can effectively damage on an opponent, it’s not a very practical style.
And yes, you could train your hands to bust through concrete and sand bags so you didn’t need to worry about where you hit someone, but it’s really difficult to condition up to that level and maintain the sensitivity required for stuff like Sticky Hands (which Snake uses extensively).
As far as “what you need for pressure point strikes to work”, it doesn’t take much.
There’s no secret to it. Most of the points are obvious if you know your anatomy: major nerve branches, eyes, muscle insertion points, arterial sinuses, joint connective tissue, etc.
Once you know where to hit, it’s just a matter of training your hands to be able to strike with the finger-tips (allowing you to concentrate the pressue into a much smaller area) and learning how to strike the points in the right way so as to cause the desired effect.
What Dim mak??
All this Dim mak / chi talk can lead you into Big trouble!
As Bruce lee said
"Don’t waste yourself " :D:D
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;920973]Dim mak is fantasy.[/QUOTE]
My Dim Mak isn’t.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;921062]My Dim Mak isn’t.[/QUOTE]
Even though all the ladies fantasize about your Dim Mak?
[QUOTE=Chazmek;921065]Even though all the ladies fantasize about your Dim Mak?[/QUOTE]
cue the 70’s porn music
[QUOTE=Chazmek;921043]Actually, it’s just a basic Shaolin class. Dim Mak isn’t part of the standard curiculum (sp?). It was being held in the gym of a local rec center and I was the only student present (private lesson).
Regardless, I would love to know how to give non-verbal cues like that. If that’s how it works, it doesn’t make a difference to me. It’s a neat trick no matter how you look at it.[/QUOTE]
Check out this video of Derren Brown. He is a hypnotist and does not do kung fu. He is also a skeptic who likes to debunk a lot of the BS for these types of beliefs.
[QUOTE=Jansingsang;921061]All this Dim mak / chi talk can lead you into Big trouble!
As Bruce lee said
"Don’t waste yourself " :D:D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I[/QUOTE]
lol, yeah, the Kiai stuff is pretty strange.
I’m interested to know if that guy got his $5k.
On a serious note, Dim Mak and vital point striking is NOT fraud, anyone that have ever fought anyone knows that hitting the right spot is much better than hitting the wrong spot.
The issues of WHY some points work are irrelevant because there are more than just 1 reason why they do.
Dim Mak is a tool, just like IP and just like strength training, there is nothing mysterious about it at all, you just need to have the actual SKILL to apply it in combat.
[QUOTE=m1k3;921069]Check out this video of Derren Brown. He is a hypnotist and does not do kung fu. He is also a skeptic who likes to debunk a lot of the BS for these types of beliefs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBXXA5xhcQ0[/QUOTE]
That is awesome!
The guy doubles over and looks like he’s about to throw up!
Like I said, even if it’s just psychology tricks, I’m still interested in learning it.