I trained with Shi Sou, Muk Yee Pai, and weights for a long time - when I saw KB’s I thought they were great!
I learned from Mark Cheng, RKC, and also learned from Valery Fedorenko, AKC - 2 different styles of KB’s, but both great!
Its old school weight training, as it should be.[/QUOTE]
Dr Mark Cheng is a phenomenal instructor. He has an incredible eye for detail and really can coomunicate instruction well. All in all the best KB instruction I have ever had came fro Mark.
Don Berr DC RKC
[QUOTE=donbdc;958189]Dr Mark Cheng is a phenomenal instructor. He has an incredible eye for detail and really can coomunicate instruction well. All in all the best KB instruction I have ever had came fro Mark.
Don Berr DC RKC[/QUOTE]
Without a doubt, Mark Cheng is one of the best KB instructors out there! He was personally trained by Pavel.
Valery Fedorenko and Steve Cotter are also phenomenal!
Pavel is a very good sales man but how good an actual trainer he is is very much up for debate, didn’t even some of his own people leave him when they found out he lied about his qualifications?
And at least one well known coach with ties to the old soviet union has pointed out that the coaches and athletes over there he has spoken to know nothing about Pavel and that the kettlebells they used in their training in the soviet era were differently shaped and mainly used for explosive throwing and jumping exercises as well as some exercises for the feet.
Not saying that people can’t find a use for them but they are not better than traditional methods of lifting and there popularity does show the power of a good marketing campaign
Pavel is a very good sales man but how good an actual trainer he is is very much up for debate, didn’t even some of his own people leave him when they found out he lied about his qualifications?
Thank god none of these sort of shenanigans go on in Wing Chun, eh?
[QUOTE=Frost;958252]Pavel is a very good sales man but how good an actual trainer he is is very much up for debate, didn’t even some of his own people leave him when they found out he lied about his qualifications?
And at least one well known coach with ties to the old soviet union has pointed out that the coaches and athletes over there he has spoken to know nothing about Pavel and that the kettlebells they used in their training in the soviet era were differently shaped and mainly used for explosive throwing and jumping exercises as well as some exercises for the feet.
Not saying that people can’t find a use for them but they are not better than traditional methods of lifting and there popularity does show the power of a good marketing campaign[/QUOTE]
I have heard these rumors before, and it is much like the lineage claiming in WC. I don’t care about that either! When I took my cert I was in a roomw/ 85 others. They were Navy Seals, Marines, Professional Athletes and Trainers, and of course Martial Artist. That was %50 the other %50 were PT’s, Chiro’s MD’s and other healthcare providers. The scientific research that is being done on functional corrective excecises does indeed make thembetter than traditional methods.
Therapist like Grey Cooke and spine physiologist Dr. Stuart McGill will be taking the KB’s further than Pavel ever could. It’s not about Pavel it’s about the results!
Don Berry DC RKC
[QUOTE=donbdc;958267]I have heard these rumors before, and it is much like the lineage claiming in WC. I don’t care about that either! When I took my cert I was in a roomw/ 85 others. They were Navy Seals, Marines, Professional Athletes and Trainers, and of course Martial Artist. That was %50 the other %50 were PT’s, Chiro’s MD’s and other healthcare providers. The scientific research that is being done on functional corrective excecises does indeed make thembetter than traditional methods.
Therapist like Grey Cooke and spine physiologist Dr. Stuart McGill will be taking the KB’s further than Pavel ever could. It’s not about Pavel it’s about the results!
Don Berry DC RKC[/QUOTE]
Good comeback…I really can’t comment on kettel bells or pavel. I am totally ignorant to the subject. But it sounds like a great debate thus far.
[QUOTE=donbdc;958267]I have heard these rumors before, and it is much like the lineage claiming in WC. I don’t care about that either! When I took my cert I was in a roomw/ 85 others. They were Navy Seals, Marines, Professional Athletes and Trainers, and of course Martial Artist. That was %50 the other %50 were PT’s, Chiro’s MD’s and other healthcare providers. The scientific research that is being done on functional corrective excecises does indeed make thembetter than traditional methods.
Therapist like Grey Cooke and spine physiologist Dr. Stuart McGill will be taking the KB’s further than Pavel ever could. It’s not about Pavel it’s about the results!
Don Berry DC RKC[/QUOTE]
I am sure you get the same breakdown of attendees at a crossfit seminar or any other seminar, as I said dragondoor is very good when it comes to marketing.
Are you looking at kettlebells as a PT tool to help rehab injured athletes, or as strength and conditioning tool? I think this is where we maybe differ I will look at guys like Cooke for injury prevention material and rehab work, not for strength and conditioning advice as I do not believe this is their area of expertise.
But I am always willing to learn and change my mind; I was put off by the whole kettlebell thing because of the lack of scientific evidence to back up their claims, and by pavel himself. If you can point me to some per reviewed scientific studies about the specific benefits of kettlebells for strength and conditioning over other methods of training I would love to see them
[QUOTE=Frost;958453]I am sure you get the same breakdown of attendees at a crossfit seminar or any other seminar, as I said dragondoor is very good when it comes to marketing. Thats mostly John DuCane not Pavel’s department. The forum has good ? and answer post for these type of discussions.
Are you looking at kettlebells as a PT tool to help rehab injured athletes, or as strength and conditioning tool? I use it as a rehab tool for my patients based on Cookes work.
I think this is where we maybe differ I will look at guys like Cooke for injury prevention material and rehab work, not for strength and conditioning advice as I do not believe this is their area of expertise.
Cooke is a trainer for the Indiannapolis Colts. So Strength and conditioning are injury prevention. Cookes work just checks those imbalances first so the training is done properly.
But I am always willing to learn and change my mind; I was put off by the whole kettlebell thing because of the lack of scientific evidence to back up their claims, and by pavel himself. If you can point me to some per reviewed scientific studies about the specific benefits of kettlebells for strength and conditioning over other methods of training I would love to see them[/QUOTE]
I like this attitude! Too few of us have it. I think there have been a few comparative studies though very small (n) and pretty old, done in the 20’s in the eastern block. I think it is a great idea, Dr McGill could do it. I will put the suggestion out. I will also look for more info for you. Kenneth Jay’s book ,Viking Warrior Conditioning,is a great book full of research on V O2 and cardio benefit.
Don’t let a personality stop you from your own personal development. Find a certed trainer and try a kb see what you think after swinging for a month.
All the best
Don Berry DC RKC
[QUOTE=donbdc;958461]I like this attitude! Too few of us have it. I think there have been a few comparative studies though very small (n) and pretty old, done in the 20’s in the eastern block. I think it is a great idea, Dr McGill could do it. I will put the suggestion out. I will also look for more info for you. Kenneth Jay’s book ,Viking Warrior Conditioning,is a great book full of research on V O2 and cardio benefit.
Don’t let a personality stop you from your own personal development. Find a certed trainer and try a kb see what you think after swinging for a month.
All the best
Don Berry DC RKC[/QUOTE]
I was under the impression that the soviets never actually did any comparative studies and this was part of the problem with the folks at dragon door; they made all the claims without any scientific back up.
If Dr McGill does take up the suggestion that would be great, too much in the strength and conditioning field is based on too little research and marketing blowing what little research there has been done on a particular area out of all proportion (the tabata protocol for example. Saying aerobic training limits strength gains and is unnecessary and intervals are all you need, or that MMA is strictly an anaerobic endeavour etc)
Thanks for the book recommendation, in return as far as conditioning books relating to martial arts can I suggest Joel Jamison’s ultimate MMA conditioning book. Joel’s methods are based on years of research into the old soviet methods and have been proven with the many pro mma fighters and other athletes he has worked with.
I trained with Shi Sou, Muk Yee Pai, and weights for a long time - when I saw KB’s I thought they were great!
I learned from Mark Cheng, RKC, and also learned from Valery Fedorenko, AKC - 2 different styles of KB’s, but both great!
Its old school weight training, as it should be.[/QUOTE]
I just picked up a really nice pair of Muk Yee Pai from Hop-Ga Sifu David Chin Dai-Wai. Furniture-grade oak, beautifully crafted, and he will be coming out with an instructional DVD soon. If you recall the book, “The Intelligent Swordplay of the Lamist School” (as opposed to the stupid swordplay?) by Lo Wai Keung, in the back he shows the Lama P’ai Mok Yee Pai set. I haven’t tried it yet-the book is buried somewhere in storage!
What movements do you do with the Muk Yee Pai?
[QUOTE=TenTigers;959868]I just picked up a really nice pair of Muk Yee Pai from Hop-Ga Sifu David Chin Dai-Wai. Furniture-grade oak, beautifully crafted, and he will be coming out with an instructional DVD soon. If you recall the book, “The Intelligent Swordplay of the Lamist School” (as opposed to the stupid swordplay?) by Lo Wai Keung, in the back he shows the Lama P’ai Mok Yee Pai set. I haven’t tried it yet-the book is buried somewhere in storage!
What movements do you do with the Muk Yee Pai?[/QUOTE]
There is no set needed. Do the Pak Hoc Luk Lik Kuen, or Lama Chuen, Pao, Cup, Gwa, Jong, Sou, Jung Gu Chai Ming, etc. Or do Lama sets Fu Hoc Cern Doe, Siu Lo Han, Dai Lo Han. Even CLF or Hung Gar 5 element sets can be practiced with them.
Well Brother,
KB’s have been great to me. I believe if your going to train in Martial Arts you need to be strong and in a good state of fitness, so I utilize KB’s a lot. I also use a lot of join mobility drills, body wirght excecise and a pull up bar for that.
But the dummy, Rattan Ring, Pole, knives and a mirror: are tools I use every day.
Have a good one
I also utilize other grip strengthening tools, such as rolling up weights on a rope and Captians of Crush grippers. They are the bomb, just google them, and some isometrics for grip strength. I mix excercises I have learned from Sifu Randy Williams and strong man David Whitley at Iron Tamer. com.
If interested I have a good connection for grippers and Kettlebells.
cheers at work and needed a laugh